Pre-Game Talk: Toronto Maple Leafs @ Pittsburgh Penguins 12/30/15

[Empoleon8771]

Perron's outproducing Kunitz despite playing a good portion of the year on his wrong side. Kunitz looks like ass despite having the most iron-clad spot on the team. God only knows how bad he'd look if he were regularly switched to RW.

Perron hasn't played a good portion of the year on his wrong side, he has played LW significantly more than RW. In fact, Kunitz has probably spent more time in the bottom-6 than Perron has spent on RW.

Perron also spent a significant amount of time with Malkin and Kessel and was on that line when Malkin was on complete fire (13 points in 7 games). He's also hardly outproducing Kunitz, he has 2 more assists than Kunitz while playing in the top-6 more than Kunitz has.

Perron and Kunitz both look like ass, you defending Perron here just proves my original point about how whipping boys are treated. Perron has been just as bad as Kunitz this year.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Perron hasn't played a good portion of the year on his wrong side, he has played LW significantly more than RW. In fact, Kunitz has probably spent more time in the bottom-6 than Perron has spent on RW.

Perron also spent a significant amount of time with Malkin and Kessel and was on that line when Malkin was on complete fire (13 points in 7 games). He's also hardly outproducing Kunitz, he has 2 more assists than Kunitz while playing in the top-6 more than Kunitz has.

Perron and Kunitz both look like ass, you defending Perron here just proves my original point about how whipping boys are treated. Perron has been just as bad as Kunitz this year.

Perron has played a good portion of the year on his off-side. Not the majority, but a good portion.

And how exactly is Perron being on Malkin's line when it had the most success a mark against him? Kunitz hasn't even been tangentially related to any line having any success this year.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Are we going to pretend that Perron isn't one of about 10 whipping boys or "whipping boys" on this team?


The Porter thing is another one of those random players this team falls in love with, it feels like it happens every season.

 

[Hossa die Waldfee]

Are we going to pretend that Perron isn't one of about 10 whipping boys or "whipping boys" on this team?

This.

The Porter thing is another one of those random players this team falls in love with, it feels like it happens every season

Yeah but at least he is back on the 4th line. Babysteps.
Maybe he will get scratched when Cullen plays. (Will probably be Plots and Fehr back to RW )

Other sign of lacking accountability (again) is Sheary on line 1. He was absolutely atrocious last game. It felt like every time he touched the puck was an automatic turnover. Literally. Even the easiest passes were misplaced. I think this Sheary experiment is doomed to failure. He is a midget who can't stay on his feet, has not an exceptional shot nor does he stickhandle very well. (Maybe it's bias because I don't like him )

 

[Fordy]

what's so bad about kunitz being a whipping boy again

he sucks

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Yeah but at least he is back on the 4th line. Babysteps.
Maybe he will get scratched when Cullen plays. (Will probably be Plots and Fehr back to RW )

Other sign of lacking accountability (again) is Sheary on line 1. He was absolutely atrocious last game. It felt like every time he touched the puck was an automatic turnover. Literally. Even the easiest passes were misplaced. I think this Sheary experiment is doomed to failure. He is a midget who can't stay on his feet, has not an exceptional shot nor does he stickhandle very well. (Maybe it's bias because I don't like him )

I wouldn't completely write Sheary off yet and there are things I like about him, but that last game was a mess and putting him on a line with the ironless wonder isn't smart. He's probably one of those many cases where you go "if only he was bigger, he'd be a good NHL player" but we'll see. I don't want a player, especially a young one, crucified for one bad game, though, not unless it's uber stupid to begin with. If it becomes a pattern then it's a problem and needs to be handled, say 3 games of struggling is when I'd start getting annoyed. That being said, I'm not sure why Perron is the one being taken off that line... I saw Whipitz standing around doing nothing far too often.

I reserve the right to throw a hissy fit if Sheary stays with Crosby and Bennett is somewhere in the bottom 6. I already have the one for KCH and Bennett in the bottom 6 ready to go.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Perron has played a good portion of the year on his off-side. Not the majority, but a good portion.

And how exactly is Perron being on Malkin's line when it had the most success a mark against him? Kunitz hasn't even been tangentially related to any line having any success this year.

Because that's the only reason that Perron has more points than Kunitz does, and that line wasn't producing because Perron magically stopped sucking. That line was producing because Malkin went god-mode and masked how bad that line actually was.

Kunitz has played a good portion of the year in the bottom-6, so why isn't that being mentioned? It's easier to produce on your off-wing with Crosby than it is to produce on the 3rd line with Bonino. Either way, Perron is producing marginally more despite playing with much better linemates and fails the eye test just as badly as Kunitz does. Both should be traded/let go at the soonest opportunity.

 

[Fordy]

Because that's the only reason that Perron has more points than Kunitz does, and that line wasn't producing because Perron magically stopped sucking. That line was producing because Malkin went god-mode and masked how bad that line actually was.

Kunitz has played a good portion of the year in the bottom-6, so why isn't that being mentioned? It's easier to produce on your off-wing with Crosby than it is to produce on the 3rd line with Bonino. Either way, Perron is producing marginally more despite playing with much better linemates and fails the eye test just as badly as Kunitz does. Both should be traded/let go at the soonest opportunity.

he was on lines with bennett and kessel on them our two best wingers

 

[Empoleon8771]

he was on lines with bennett and kessel on them our two best wingers

I wouldn't say wasn't, but Kessel was very rarely used on the 3rd line with Bonino as the center and Kunitz on LW. Bennett is completely fair to say, Kunitz-Bonino-Bennett was the line for like 90% of the games (with Kunitz-Bonino-Hornqvist/Sprong/Fehr making up the remaining 10%).

 

[DegenX]

Are we going to pretend that Perron isn't one of about 10 whipping boys or "whipping boys" on this team?


The Porter thing is another one of those random players this team falls in love with, it feels like it happens every season.

The point of a whipping boy is to take punishment for someone else ... These whipping boys are not effective ... I feel like I'm being punished whenever they're on the ice

 

[MrWilson*]

More Kunitz and Perron hate. :

In an effort to find some hope, I was looking around at the team stats and the Pens...aren't as awful in a lot of categories as I'd thought they'd be. For example, 3rd in shots for per game, 23rd in penalty minutes per game (8.6, or roughly 4 minor penalties), 8th in goals against per game (like...8th best), 6th in penalty kill, etc. It's not that terrible.

but then I look at the other stats... 3rd least goals for, 3rd worst powerplay and 4th most shots against and I get sad again.

Nice summation. Hmmmm...All those shots and almost last in goals, almost last in powerplay goals too. Over $30 million tied up in 'stars' who are all, except for Malkin in streaks, ******** THE BED, and this board wants to blame Perron and Kunitz??

Um...OK.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

The point of a whipping boy is to take punishment for someone else ... These whipping boys are not effective ... I feel like I'm being punished whenever they're on the ice

Yeah, but because of Kunitz Crosby gets zero criticism, ever. He's doing his job! Oh, wait.... damn it, Kunitz, you had one job.

 

[Shady Machine]

Perron hasn't played a good portion of the year on his wrong side, he has played LW significantly more than RW. In fact, Kunitz has probably spent more time in the bottom-6 than Perron has spent on RW.

Perron also spent a significant amount of time with Malkin and Kessel and was on that line when Malkin was on complete fire (13 points in 7 games). He's also hardly outproducing Kunitz, he has 2 more assists than Kunitz while playing in the top-6 more than Kunitz has.

Perron and Kunitz both look like ass, you defending Perron here just proves my original point about how whipping boys are treated. Perron has been just as bad as Kunitz this year.

Prove to us that Kunitz played more in the bottom 6 than Perron has at right wing. Also Perron spent several games early in the season on 3rd and 4th lines. Neither has been very good but Kunitz is the one that gets preferential treatment like always. So far Kunitz has been line one left wing or line 3 left wing to swap with the other golden boy Duper.

Meanwhile Perron has been line 4 left and right wing, line 3 left wing, line 2 left wing, and line 1 right wing. Kunitz has been on PP 1 and 2 in the same spot while Perron has been thrown everywhere.

We do play favorites at HFboards but so do the coaches.

Also, and this is the big one, Perron is usually given a game or 2 leash in a particular spot before being yanked and put somewhere else. Kunitz is given the benefit of the doubt constantly before being moved. Look I don't think we have much to replace Kunitz with but he does get preferential treatment. As I said yesterday, moving him down the lineup doesn't have much to do with accountability, it has to do with him not being good at hockey anymore.

 

[Kiith Nabaal]

Kunitz has been on the third line for 14/35 or 40% of the total games played so far. He has been with Crosby almost all of the time. At the beginning of the season, Kunitz - Crosby - Kessel was the top line for seven straight games, until we played Nashville and Dupuis came back.

Here are the point distributions over that seven game span:

Player|Goals|Assists|Points
Crosby|1|2|3
Kunitz|0|0|0
Kessel|2|1|3

I found this by:
1. penguins.nhl.com
2. Go to game schedule
3. Click the "preview" button
4. All but two of the preview notes include lines and d pairings

I think it may seem like Kunitz has been on the third line almost all year, because we weren't used to seeing him there in the first place.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Prove to us that Kunitz played more in the bottom 6 than Perron has at right wing. Also Perron spent several games early in the season on 3rd and 4th lines.

Games with Kunitz on the 3rd line: 14/35 (thanks to Kiith Nabaal for that)
Games with Perron on RW: 7/35

Perron played 7 games on RW, 2 were with Bennett and Bonino (for some reason, I think that is backwards), 2 were with Cullen and Rust and 3 was with Kunitz and Crosby. Perron spent 4 games in the bottom-6 this year, that's it.

Neither has been very good but Kunitz is the one that gets preferential treatment like always.

If you actually looked at how they were used, you wouldn't be saying this. Perron has played with Malkin and Kessel more than Kunitz has played with Crosby.

So far Kunitz has been line one left wing or line 3 left wing to swap with the other golden boy Duper.

Meanwhile Perron has been line 4 left and right wing, line 3 left wing, line 2 left wing, and line 1 right wing. Kunitz has been on PP 1 and 2 in the same spot while Perron has been thrown everywhere.

And of those, Perron was on line 2 LW for like 23 of those 35 games. He spent 2 games on the 4th line, 2 on the 3rd, 5 on the 2nd line with Hornqvist and Malkin and 3 on the top line with Crosby and Kunitz. Perron played with Malkin and Kessel from I believe the Buffalo game on October 29th to the Bruins game on December 16th then was put back together on December 18th, 19th and 21st.

Also, and this is the big one, Perron is usually given a game or 2 leash in a particular spot before being yanked and put somewhere else. Kunitz is given the benefit of the doubt constantly before being moved. Look I don't think we have much to replace Kunitz with but he does get preferential treatment. As I said yesterday, moving him down the lineup doesn't have much to do with accountability, it has to do with him not being good at hockey anymore.

This is just blatantly false, he was strung to Malkin and Kessel for at a 20 game stretch. He has played an overwhelming majority of the time along Kessel and Malkin, so you can't even argue that Kunitz is getting preferential treatment as compared to Perron. It's just not true.

Perron has played with Crosby or Malkin for 30 of 35 games this year. I don't know how you can actually argue that Kunitz (who only has 21 of 35 games with Crosby or Malkin) have gotten a better treatment than Perron.

 

[PensandCaps]

it's easy perron sucks and kunitz is the only possible winger that doesn't result in an instant 200 goals against

Perron>>kunitz.

 

[PensandCaps]

Is letang still out? My god his injuries are starting to get REAL annoying, i was pro letang and his contract but now his contract looks super bad. Trade him for anything. Unless hes healthy then hes worth the contract.....but hes never HEALTHY!!

 

[Empoleon8771]

Perron>>kunitz.

What support do you have for this? I honestly don't see anything that makes me think Perron isn't as bad as Kunitz. He's producing just as little while playing with just as good linemates and he's failing the eye test just as much as Kunitz is.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

It will never cease to amaze me how people continue to defend Kunitz.

"Hey, he's showing a pulse by actually taking a couple of strides per shift and running into guys occasionally! He's been great!"

Kunitz is garbage. He's been garbage for two calendar years. He's not righting the ship, and he's only going to get worse. He should be scratched until he accepts a trade once this team is healthy, and he should get 4th line minutes until then. I don't care if other players aren't lighting the world on fire either, that's not an excuse and doesn't absolve Kunitz.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It will never cease to amaze me how people continue to defend Kunitz.

"Hey, he's showing a pulse by actually taking a couple of strides per shift and running into guys occasionally! He's been great!"

Kunitz is garbage. He's been garbage for two calendar years. He's not righting the ship, and he's only going to get worse. He should be scratched until he accepts a trade once this team is healthy, and he should get 4th line minutes until then. I don't care if other players aren't lighting the world on fire either, that's not an excuse and doesn't absolve Kunitz.

I've seen 2 people here actually defend Kunitz: billybud and someone I have on my ignore list that was pointed out to me. That's it. Saying Perron sucks just as much as him isn't at all a defense of Kunitz.

 

[Hossa die Waldfee]

So we are ignoring that Kunitz was always the guy who filled up line#1 LW? He has played 2 min less 5on5 hockey than Perron. Kunitz has played 19 minutes more on the PP. Perron is outproducing Kunitz. If you like it or not.

You are kidding yourself by arguing that Kunitz is no worse than Perron. Everybody on this board has some kind of bias, but you don't have to prove your "objectivity" by defending Kunitz. Kunitz has played 5 good games were he showed a pulse and the rest of them were a catastrophe. Perrons first approximately 8 games were a catastrophe and since then he was decent. Not good by any means but decent. Perron didn't detain Malkin from going Godmode. I'm not sure this would have happened with Kunitz.

 

[Empoleon8771]

So we are ignoring that Kunitz was always the guy who filled up line#1 LW? He has played 2 min less 5on5 hockey than Perron. Kunitz has played 19 minutes more on the PP. Perron is outproducing Kunitz. If you like it or not.

Yes, Perron has 2 more points than Kunitz while playing significantly more in the top-6 than Kunitz has. Yeah, that definitely makes Perron better than Kunitz. A 28 point pace while playing along Malkin and Kessel for most of the games is totally acceptable, right?

You are kidding yourself by arguing that Kunitz is no worse than Perron. Everybody on this board has some kind of bias, but you don't have to prove your "objectivity" by defending Kunitz. Kunitz has played 5 good games were he showed a pulse and the rest of them were a catastrophe. Perrons first approximately 8 games were a catastrophe and since then he was decent. Not good by any means but decent. Perron didn't detain Malkin from going Godmode. I'm not sure this would have happened with Kunitz.

Well you're just wrong, so there's that. I'm not defending Kunitz, I'm saying Perron sucks. How people can't understand that blows me away. Perron is only producing more than Kunitz because he was with Malkin for that massive stretch of games while Kunitz was on the 3rd line. People just want to make excuses for Perron because JR wasted a 1st rounder on him, he's a **** player just like Kunitz is.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I don't know, man. Bringing up stats to try and discredit the fact that Kunitz has gotten preferential treatment and gifted time in the top-6/top PP unit despite the past two calendar years of atrocious, line-ruining hockey? Sure seems like a defense of Kunitz to me.

Kunitz deserved to be demoted. Hell, he deserved to be scratched. He hasn't been as bad as the corpse we've seen for years, but he's still playing **** hockey. Perron has nothing to do with that. And for the record, I think Perron's been pretty bad as well, but nowhere near the level of bad Kunitz is on a consistent basis. Kunitz kills lines, Perron just hasn't been very effective. Big difference.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't know, man. Bringing up stats to try and discredit the fact that Kunitz has gotten preferential treatment and gifted time in the top-6/top PP unit despite the past two calendar years of atrocious, line-ruining hockey? Sure seems like a defense of Kunitz to me.

No, it's disproving the idea that Perron has somehow gotten shafted all the time while Kunitz has been gifted every single opportunity. Perron has been given just as much opportunity to not suck as Kunitz has and he hasn't taken it.

Kunitz deserved to be demoted. Hell, he deserved to be scratched. He hasn't been as bad as the corpse we've seen for years, but he's still playing **** hockey. Perron has nothing to do with that. And for the record, I think Perron's been pretty bad as well, but nowhere near the level of bad Kunitz is on a consistent basis. Kunitz kills lines, Perron just hasn't been very effective. Big difference.

Please share where I've said that Kunitz sucking as anything to do with Perron. I'm saying Perron sucks just like Kunitz. Perron has been killing his lines just as much as Kunitz has this year, that's the reality of the situation. You just won't admit that because Perron was good more recently than Kunitz was. Perron sucking for less time than Kunitz has doesn't change the fact that Perron is still straight up garbage right now and just another pile of garbage with Kunitz. Maybe he hurts us less than Kunitz does, but he still has an overwhelming negative on our team and should be considered garbage just like Kunitz is.

Here, I'll make my argument very clear here. Kunitz sucks ass. There is no way, shape or form you can legitimately argue against that. However, Perron also sucks ass. He may suck ass less than Kunitz does (debatable), but he still sucks ass. He has gotten just as much of an opportunity as Kunitz this year and he has done nothing with it. He has done nothing this year to suggest that he doesn't suck and has certainly done nothing to suggest that he should be here after his contract is done. This isn't a defense of Kunitz, it's saying Perron sucks.

 

[Asuna]

You really can't argue that Perron has gotten preferential treatment over Kunitz.

Perron has been on the fourth line at times...when has Kunitz?

Even when Kunitz was playing on the third line, he still got top PP time, and was the first winger to replace Crosby on the top line, whenever Dupuis missed a shift or whatever.