I would give Holl a shot. The Leafs need new blood on D. I would keep Reilly, Dermott and give Holl a shot. The only other veteran I would consider keeping is Hainsey and the only reason is I think it will be difficult to find three new dmen through trades or draft that they can give starting/roster spots. But, they have to try. It's time to accept that you need a major revamping on D. Stop coming back with the same crap year after year and fix this problem.
Line Combos: TOR needs to **** or get off the pot in regards to our defense
- Thread starter ottomaddox
- Start date
Gardiner, Zaitsev, Polak and Carrick are not the answer and they need to try someone else.
Al14
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Those four I mentioned are awful and brutal at defensive zone coverage. I'm not even that big of a fan of Reilly but I think his tools he brings is worth keeping and they need to clean house so he's the main veteran I'd keep. Dermott is young and learning while having a good hockey IQ so he stays also (a no brainer). The rest, I think you let go although if you want to keep one 5-6 veteran, I'd opt for Hainsey. But, remember Pitt. let him go. But, if he just has 5-6 minutes, maybe you're okay with him.
The rest I'd send packing or trade the guys you might get something for (i.e. Gardiner). They won't improve if they still keep doing the status quo, especially regarding the defence. If you want to change that horrible 40+ SOG /game on Andersen, you need to clean out the D. Maybe you have 'February Andersen' in April if he is not burnt out from all those shots and having such high quality scoring chances against? I still say he was burnt out and it's much easier to have the 'hot and cold' stretches when that has happened. One or two minor changes is not going to cut it so if you are willing to face reality, then you would demand such drastic changes to that team.
I tended to stay away from those precisely because they were decidedly not good sources for who was playing well this series. There are a number of posters here whose opinions I trust precisely due to their ability to be objective and want what is best for the team and they came to the same conclusion more or less.
I was just using my own eyes and looking at the numbers afterwords to make my conclusions.
Try this for example. Most people on the site thought Morgan Rielly was our best Dman right?
How could I be as unfair as possible to Zaitsev while still doing an easy comparison to Rielly in the series....
How about I compare both of them in ALL situations? Zaitsev's full PK minutes and Rielly's PP minutes are all part of the following comparison.
TOI:
Zaitsev: 145 minutes
Rielly: 143 Minutes
Pretty even usage this series.
Corsi:
Zaitsev: 46.28%
Rielly: 42.65%
Shots For:
Zaitsev: 70
Rielly: 64
Shots Against:
Zaitsev: 83
Rielly: 82
Scoring chances for:
Zaitsev: 70
Rielly: 69
Scoring chances against:
Zaitsev: 75
Rielly: 88
High Danger scoring chances for:
Zaitsev: 29
Rielly: 19
High Danger scoring chances against:
Zaitsev: 24
Rielly: 25
Goals for:
Zaitsev: 4
Rielly: 10
Goals against:
Zaitsev: 9
Rielly: 9
Stats speak for themselves.
No, they don't. It doesn't prove anything. I watched the games and the giveaways were highly against Zaitsev. Zaitsev and Gardiner were giveaway machines. The entire D struggled all series so merely comparing two with Corsi doesn't give the entire picture. Reilly has much more potential and they need him for the PP plus he still has skill whereas Zaitsev looks like he has regressed, if anything. I've already posted that I'm not a fan of any of their dmen although I think Dermott could turn out to be pretty good. He already has a decent hockey IQ and just has to learn the game (his position). I don't think he's going to learn much from that crew, though. They need new blood for more than one reason.
EDIT: P.S. ' because they were decidedly not good sources for who was playing well this series'
I disagree. Maybe you need objective eyes and probably many there could display that. You are looking at it subjectively and don't want to face reality.
CantLoseWithMatthews
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Dermott and Polak had more giveaways. using giveaways as your sole measure for defense is stupid anyway
Maybe but Gardiner's and Zaitsev's seemed to result in good scoring chances for Boston. I guess there must be some reason that Gardiner was considered the scapegoat for game 7. I wonder why....what on earth could it be????
He wasn't just bad in game 7.
CantLoseWithMatthews
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he was terrible in game 7, but good in the rest of the series. Mistakes stand out more when they end up in the back of your net, and Andersen did no favours for anyoneMaybe but Gardiner's and Zaitsev's seemed to result in good scoring chances for Boston. I guess there must be some reason that Gardiner was considered the scapegoat for game 7. I wonder why....what on earth could it be????
LOL! Not sure what planet you're on but have fun there. I'll stay in the real world, thanks.
BlueBaron
Registered User
One important element is missing. Who were they defending against during that time? I'll wager Rielly saw more time against top competition.
For sure.
Not to mention, all the hockey analysts were saying that the Bruins would intentionally throw the puck in Gardiner's (and Zaitsev's?) corner and just go after him. This was a strategy most teams use against the Leafs. Gardiner can't play his position and he's soft. He's a decent PP/point defenceman and can start the odd rush but overall, he's a bad dman, period. I'll reiterate, the Leafs need fresh blood at that position if they are going forward (and hoping to improve).
While Zaitsev's 6 giveaways this series may have been enough to downplay his great analytics, I highly doubt it.
You have to remember I was comparing ALL situations here. Zaitsev's 19:15 min on the PK and Rielly's 13:16 on the PP are included in these numbers.
This comparison is so insanely skewed against Zaitsev it really isnt fair to even list....but I did anyways to show you how good his numbers were this series. I understand Rielly faced better quality of competition 5v5 which is another reason I showed the data this way. Zaitsev himself had more than a few shifts against Boston's top line and who do you think he was facing on the PK for 15% of his sample? Those same guys at a major disadvantage....and Zaitsev still comes out of it with better numbers.
As far as objectivity goes, I'm agreeing with the data here. You are going against it with no evidence at all except for other peoples opinions (which can be contagious around here and throughout the media). I dont have to be a fan or biased in one way or another to admit he was a train wreck for the first 3/4 of the season before he started to turn it around. I love that his game peaked for us at the right time. I hope he continues to build on it from here at we need him, especially after the contract he signed.
Whos not being objective?
CantLoseWithMatthews
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Gardiner is not a defenceman. He is a converted centre. It has been 8 years of people saying hey this guys has beautiful edgework, can skate, good hands and size. We can make him a defenceman. He will NEVER EVER be a defenceman. You have to have the heartfelt desire to play defence. It is a very tough position to play. Maybe Leafs will move him back to centre next year. Thats what he loves to do. I do not blame him. He says all the right things but it was never ingrained in him. When all the sports talking heads in toronto talk about his mistakes and say well those mistakes should have been corrected when he was 12. Well guess what folks he STARTED learning defence on the fly at University of Wisconsin. There is a reason he can't pivot to his left. Why do you think goal 5 had a chance? Our sports media people are not hockey people. They are talking heads. Take a look at the tape under pressure he ALWAYS pivots to his right. This is an extremely difficult skill to learn at 20. People are throwing him under the bus and it really is unfair. He is still a major project under development to learn defence. It has nothing to do with fact he is 28. He has 8 years of experience now as a defence. Dermott has been playing defence since he was 5. Rielly since atom. They have many many more years of experience and coaches who actually teach them. The nhl is not where you learn defence. nhl coaches are people managers not position and skill teachers. He just does not have the ingrained experience to fall back on.
QFT, plain and simple. There was no defensemen that the Leafs could have gotten and be a smart move. Here is the good news though. With the assets that Toronto gains this draft, the development of several prospects in the system and next years picks, they will be able to make a significant deadline acquisition next season. Patience is what is needed here among fans most of all.
I like the idea of building the D through picks, but Im not sure how confident I am in Hunters ability to do that.
Dermott - excellent
Nielsen - looked okay, cant skate or defend
Lindgren - best value D pick yet
Desrocher - gone
Greenway - tools no tool box
Middleton - ew
Mattinen - " "
Rasanen - some good tools, but a longshot
Gordeev - meh
O'Connell - too hard to project
Didn't include Liljegren cause every Leaf fan and their dog makes that pick.
Dermott - excellent
Nielsen - looked okay, cant skate or defend
Lindgren - best value D pick yet
Desrocher - gone
Greenway - tools no tool box
Middleton - ew
Mattinen - " "
Rasanen - some good tools, but a longshot
Gordeev - meh
O'Connell - too hard to project
Didn't include Liljegren cause every Leaf fan and their dog makes that pick.
Trapper
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Why did it have to be a today or bust D acquisition?
A 1st round pick is still good today and this summer if something comes available now.
Al14
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1 game does not a 7 game series make! However, it sure looks bad for Tampa at the moment!
thewave
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Not really weird. Need to compete, need to hit and get in their face. Bruins eat soft teams for breakfast. They need socked in the mouth.
Havoc
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Some of the goals Boston scored, Leafs weren't allowing. After game 1 we didn't let their top line get those shots off from the slot. That Marchand to Bergeron goal would have been blocked or stick checked.
Tampa simply came unprepared it seems. Disregarded the tape.
Tampa simply came unprepared it seems. Disregarded the tape.
A team can’t be fixed over night. And to think D men can easily be acquired we are all mistaken. Look at the costs required to obtain some of these players. Big time talent and or major assets going the other way for mediocre d in some cases. It’s Way to early to start gutting and going all in
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