Blue Jays Discussion: TOR Acquires Francisco Liriano, Scott Feldman, Mike Bolsinger

[Fantomas]

Coming from someone who doesn't care if his arm explodes as long as the Jays win a World Series.

I'd rather have a healthy ace for the next 5-10 seasons.

I'll take the World Series. Thanks.

 

[Hoverhand]

Aaron pitches 200+ this yr, gets hurt, never pitches again, and all of you cry.

Aaron goes to the bullpen. becomes an elite 7/8 inning guy instantly, saves arm, still valuable, you cry.

No win. ever.

Sanchez could go to the starting rotation and pitch a 0.63 ERA for the rest of the season.

He could also go to the bullpen and pitch Horrendous

Point is we have no idea what will happen, but many of us are advocating the most likely scenario if Sanchez continues to pitch in the rotation he should be fine.

 

[le_sean]

I'll take the World Series. Thanks.

Or his arm explodes and the Jays don't even win the World Series. Won't they even look dumber then.

But I'm glad he's just a piece of meat to a bunch of people here. "Who cares, he's our property!"

 

[Goonface2k14]

Coming from someone who doesn't care if his arm explodes as long as the Jays win a World Series.

I'd rather have a healthy ace for the next 5-10 seasons.

Riiiiiiiiiight.... because throwing him into the pen guarantees he will be perfectly healthy and will continue to pitch at this level until 2026.

 

[le_sean]

Riiiiiiiiiight.... because throwing him into the pen guarantees he will be perfectly healthy and will continue to pitch at this level until 2026.

Well what's the point of ever signing a free agent? They can get hurt at any moment. Why tie up the money?

 

[Discoverer]

Riiiiiiiiiight.... because throwing him into the pen guarantees he will be perfectly healthy and will continue to pitch at this level until 2026.

Nothing is guaranteed either way. I don't think many people think that. Whichever decision they make will have plenty of risk involved, but they obviously believe they're doing what's best for his long term health.

 

[Goonface2k14]

Those who remember '92 and '93 should remember how important this guy was to the team and both World Series championships (especially 1992):

IMO, Aaron Sanchez is exactly this same guy, over 20 years later. Without Guzman as a starter, the Jays don't even make it past the 92' or 93' ALCS. Beeston, Gillick and Gaston would've laughed in the face of anyone suggesting moving Juan to the bullpen. He was electric, exactly how Sanchez is now. He declined in performance and his numbers were up and down after 1992, but they don't have their back-to-back World Series championships without him.

 

[Sokil]

I'm not implying anything. It's a gamble. Even if it's 50/50 of fatiguing or not, it's still best to take the 50% that he is and have him in the bullpen. Having Sanchez in the bullpen is better than not having Sanchez at all.

i'll take the 50% in this scenario that he stays healthy as a starter over the 50% that he stays healthy and stops starting for us.

i mean this doesn't even make sense.

is there any harm in putting him in the bullpen WHEN he shows fatigue, not because it was foreseen in a mirage?

 

[Sokil]

Aaron pitches 200+ this yr, gets hurt, never pitches again, and all of you cry.

Aaron goes to the bullpen. becomes an elite 7/8 inning guy instantly, saves arm, still valuable, you cry.

No win. ever.

The idea of him suffering a career ending injury is so remote why even put it on the table?

 

[Goonface2k14]

Well what's the point of ever signing a free agent? They can get hurt at any moment. Why tie up the money?

Precisely, there's risk involved regardless of what you do with Sanchez today.

And even if the risk increases, the World Series title trumps everything else, including Sanchez' future (assuming that he is at much greater risk as a starter this season than going into the pen and then continuing as a starter next season).

 

[ShaneFalco]

Nothing is guaranteed either way. I don't think many people think that. Whichever decision they make will have plenty of risk involved, but they obviously believe they're doing what's best for his long term health.

Agreed, but they're doesn't seem to be any evidence to back that. And how often do pitchers even throw complete games anymore?

I also think it doesn't send the best message to the team.

 

[HellasLEAF]

I'm for whatever decision gets this team, this city, a championship.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Those who remember '92 and '93 should remember how important this guy was to the team and both World Series championships (especially 1992):

IMO, Aaron Sanchez is exactly this same guy, over 20 years later. Without Guzman as a starter, the Jays don't even make it past the 92' or 93' ALCS. Beeston, Gillick and Gaston would've laughed in the face of anyone suggesting moving Juan to the bullpen. He was electric, exactly how Sanchez is now. He declined in performance severely after 1992, but they don't have their back-to-back World Series championships without him.

I fail to see the correlation. They seem like vastly different pitchers and vastly different development paths.

 

[Woodman19]

Eh, the people who want Sanchez in the rotation are likely the people who didn't realize the team existed until last August and would be the first ones to bail on the team if Sanchez blew out his arm and the team went down the crapper. Saving his arm and fielding a competitive team will simply keep the casuals around as long as there is a sniff of contention to be had.

 

[Discoverer]

Agreed, but they're doesn't seem to be any evidence to back that. And how often do pitchers even throw complete games anymore?

I also think it doesn't send the best message to the team.

There's no evidence to support the opposite approach, either. Again, though, most of the research being done on injury prevention for pitchers is likely being done by individual teams. We don't have access to that.

And if the message being sent to the team is some combination of "We're going to do what we feel is in the best interest of the long-term health of our employees" and "We think this team is good enough to win with Sanchez in the bullpen", then I'm sure they appreciate it.

 

[zeke]

yes, anyone who questions whether its a good idea to remove the Cy favorite from the rotation is a nitwit casual fan.

only true baseball lifers realize the genius of it.

 

[Eyedea]

Juan Guzman already threw 200 innings in a season before the '92 and '93 championships. There was never going to be an inning restriction for him.

What is more applicable and relatable is the situation regarding Jose Fernandez this year.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Good to keep in mind that moving Sanchez to the pen does vastly improve the bullpen quality that was an issue throughout this year so far.

Osuna
Sanchez
Grilli
Cecil
Biagini
Benoit
Feldman

You can't simply replace Sanchez's impact as a starter but if the Jays can get quality innings from Liriano and Stroman keeps improving down the stretch, the rotation will be fine. It's a risk for sure. And this is coming from someone who would rather gamble on keeping Sanchez in the rotation the rest of the season.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Juan Guzman already threw 200 innings in a season before the '92 and '93 championships. There was never going to be an inning restriction for him.

He had gone over 130 on two separate occasions in his minor league career alone.

 

[theaub]

I fail to see the correlation. They seem like vastly different pitchers and vastly different development paths.

Yeah, if you're picking one guy from those years, its Pat Hentgen.

1992: 70.1 IP (AAA/MLB)
1993: 225.1 IP (MLB incl playoffs...19-9, 3.87 ERA, 6th in AL Cy Young voting)

Hentgen was incredibly inconsistent after that (of course, the highs were rather significant with ASG appearances in '94/'97 and a Cy Young in '96), but didn't have an arm blowout until 2001 when he was 33 years old.

Also it should be noted that Hengten logged significant innings in the minors from '87-'91.

yes, anyone who questions whether its a good idea to remove the Cy favorite from the rotation is a nitwit casual fan.

only true baseball lifers realize the genius of it.

Yeah that was a rather glib statement. The overarching notion that wanting Sanchez in the rotation means that you're rooting for him to blow out his arm for personal enjoyment is...rather odd to say the least.

 

[Goonface2k14]

I fail to see the correlation. They seem like vastly different pitchers and vastly different development paths.

Young, star pitchers in their second season who dominated in the vast majority of their starts on a championship calibre team. ERA leaders. Strikeout guys. Juan went from 144.2 innings in 1991 to 201.2 in 1992. He then pitched 246.0 innings in 1993 with no arm troubles whatsoever.

 

[le_sean]

yes, anyone who questions whether its a good idea to remove the Cy favorite from the rotation is a nitwit casual fan.

only true baseball lifers realize the genius of it.

And anyone who thinks an organization wants to put their ace in the bullpen in the middle of a pennant race just for fun?

Do you think it was Shapiro walking into a meeting and saying "meh, let's see how it goes"?

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Yeah, if you're picking one guy from those years, its Pat Hentgen.

1992: 70.1 IP (AAA/MLB)
1993: 225.1 IP (MLB incl playoffs...19-9, 3.87 ERA, 6th in AL Cy Young voting)

Hentgen was incredibly inconsistent after that (of course, the highs were rather significant with ASG appearances in '94/'97 and a Cy Young in '96), but didn't have an arm blowout until 2001 when he was 33 years old.



Yeah that was a rather glib statement. The overarching notion that wanting Sanchez in the rotation means that you're rooting for him to blow out his arm for personal enjoyment is...rather odd to say the least.

Hentgen threw 188 as an 18 year old. My god, things have changed.

I believe Woodrow was referring to those who have based their stance on the "I dun care what happens next year" rather than those who have said "there's no evidence to prove that this will be safer for the pitcher". At least, that's how I interpreted the post.

 

[Deebo]

Yeah, if you're picking one guy from those years, its Pat Hentgen.

1992: 70.1 IP (AAA/MLB)
1993: 225.1 IP (MLB incl playoffs...19-9, 3.87 ERA, 6th in AL Cy Young voting)

He pitched 170 in 1991, 150+ in 1988-1991 and 188 in 1987.

 

[Woodman19]

Hentgen threw 188 as an 18 year old. My god, things have changed.

I believe Woodrow was referring to those who have based their stance on the "I dun care what happens next year" rather than those who have said "there's no evidence to prove that this will be safer for the pitcher". At least, that's how I interpreted the post.

Bingo. Their care for next year is about my care for their opinion, an opinion Shapiro and company appear to share.