Top 50 players in the league #6

[Boreal01]

Vasi

 

[ted2019]

I went with the Goalie who just won the Conn Smythe.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Matthews -> Been much better offensively than Crosby has over the last 2 years. Slightly higher point/gp, and over DOUBLE the goals that Crosby has over the last 2 years. Any defensive edge is trivial, especially when the goal difference is astronomical.

Let me state ahead of time I have no issue with putting Matthews ahead of Crosby. At this point in Crosby's career, I'd probably rank Matthews ahead as well.

With that said, I don't know why the bolded is always used as an argument when comparing a goal scorer with a playmaker. Of course the goal scorer is going to have more goals. You're almost automatically punishing playmakers from the get-go by comparing the two's goal totals.

Crosby could finish 30 points ahead of Matthews in a season and chances are good Matthews' goal totals will still be higher. So it seems weird to focus on *that* as some sort of argument for why Matthews is better when you're comparing apples and oranges (in terms of what each player is expected to do). It would be like me putting a heavy emphasis on assist totals to determine who the better player is. "Oh sure, they're relatively equal in points. But Player A has twice the assists as Player B, so clearly he's better".

Sorry, just a minor rant for when people seem to punish playmakers by comparing their goal total to players who specialize in scoring goals. Like I said, I don't have an issue with the conclusion (ie. Matthews ranked ahead). My issue is with the methodology of arriving at that conclusion by focusing so much on one aspect of the game that favors one type of player over the other.

 

[Dion TheFluff]

suprised Barkov isn't getting more love?
He was HF's darling for a while

 

[majormajor]

Two years in a row now, Artemi Panarin has been behind only McDavid and Draisaitl in points per game. He has an outstanding two-way and transition game, and frankly he puts the rest of these options to shame in terms of his ability to carry linemates.

 

[North Cole]

I went with Panarin, between him and Matthews.

 

[BananaSquad]

Matthews is easily top 5.

 

[jetsforever]

Sid the Man

 

[Lays]

If we’re being real, Panarin is significantly better than Crosby right now

 

[Garthinater]

This should be breadman.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Real fans will know its Marchand, Panarin or Crosby. Voted Marchand.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Crosby.
Next Panarin.

 

[5 14 6 1]

I'll take one Vasilevski please

 

[Namikaze Minato]

Real fans will know its Marchand, Panarin or Crosby. Voted Marchand.

How's the gatekeeping?

 

[Zamknij kurwa ryj]

How's the gatekeeping?

Been plenty of that from the thread creator whining because he didn't like the results of his polls that almost everybody except him and a very vocal minority take issue with.

 

[Namikaze Minato]

Been plenty of that from the thread creator whining because he didn't like the results of his polls that almost everybody except him and a very vocal minority take issue with.

So may as well let more gatekeeping happen i guess, eh? Do you feel like a REAL FAN now?

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

How's the gatekeeping?

I like my stars to produce when called upon. Playoff performers. That's what I meant by real fans, people who know the players that stand out when it's time to win.

 

[Namikaze Minato]

I like my stars to produce when called upon. Playoff performers. That's what I meant by real fans, people who know the players that stand out when it's time to win.

But your team doesnt make the playoffs, so how can you be a REAL FAN?

 

[filinski77]

Let me state ahead of time I have no issue with putting Matthews ahead of Crosby. At this point in Crosby's career, I'd probably rank Matthews ahead as well.

With that said, I don't know why the bolded is always used as an argument when comparing a goal scorer with a playmaker. Of course the goal scorer is going to have more goals. You're almost automatically punishing playmakers from the get-go by comparing the two's goal totals.

Crosby could finish 30 points ahead of Matthews in a season and chances are good Matthews' goal totals will still be higher. So it seems weird to focus on *that* as some sort of argument for why Matthews is better when you're comparing apples and oranges (in terms of what each player is expected to do). It would be like me putting a heavy emphasis on assist totals to determine who the better player is. "Oh sure, they're relatively equal in points. But Player A has twice the assists as Player B, so clearly he's better".

Sorry, just a minor rant for when people seem to punish playmakers by comparing their goal total to players who specialize in scoring goals. Like I said, I don't have an issue with the conclusion (ie. Matthews ranked ahead). My issue is with the methodology of arriving at that conclusion by focusing so much on one aspect of the game that favors one type of player over the other.

No need to apologize! Totally understand. My point is that if you remove all other factors that go into ranking a player, and compare 2x 100 point players. Most people are taking the 60+40 guy over the 35+65 guy.

When looking at Crosby + Matthews over the last 2 seasons, here are their "projected" 82 game paces (definitely hard to project given 2 shortened seasons + one interdivisional season, but still better than using stats from 3 years ago to project the future)

Matthews = 98 points (59 goals)
Crosby = 93 points (34 goals)

The point here, is that Matthews scoring at a 59 goal pace is much more valuable to a team than Crosby scoring at a 59 assist pace. Especially when over the last 2 seasons, 12 other players have scored at a higher assist pace (and another 5 right up behind that), whereas the only player with a goal pace close to Matthews over the last 2 years has been Ovechkin.

 

[filinski77]

If we’re being real, Panarin is significantly better than Crosby right now

So is Marchand - by a lot imo.

 

[McFlash97]

Barkov

 

[Lays]

So is Marchand - by a lot imo.

Marchand isn’t better than Panarin though

 

[filinski77]

Marchand isn’t better than Panarin though

I would say it's pretty close.

Panarin is a bit ahead offensively (last 2 years point/gp = 1.38 vs. 1.27), but Marchand hits way more, is way better defensively, and is amazing on the PK. I feel like that's enough to close the smaller offensive gap.

That being said, I would have no issue ranking Panarin a spot higher - I just think the gap is razor thin either way.

 

[Lays]

I would say it's pretty close.

Panarin is a bit ahead offensively (last 2 years point/gp = 1.38 vs. 1.27), but Marchand hits way more, is way better defensively, and is amazing on the PK. I feel like that's enough to close the smaller offensive gap.

That being said, I would have no issue ranking Panarin a spot higher - I just think the gap is razor thin either way.

Marchand plays on a line literally titled the “Perfection Line” and Panarin played with Ryan Strome and Jesper Fast last year and still led the league in even strength points by a margin. This year he played with Strome and Colin Blackwell and put up similar production. Panarin is better. You think Marchand would lead the league in even strength points by playing with Strome+Fast? Not a chance

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

No need to apologize! Totally understand. My point is that if you remove all other factors that go into ranking a player, and compare 2x 100 point players. Most people are taking the 60+40 guy over the 35+65 guy.

When looking at Crosby + Matthews over the last 2 seasons, here are their "projected" 82 game paces (definitely hard to project given 2 shortened seasons + one interdivisional season, but still better than using stats from 3 years ago to project the future)

Matthews = 98 points (59 goals)
Crosby = 93 points (34 goals)

The point here, is that Matthews scoring at a 59 goal pace is much more valuable to a team than Crosby scoring at a 59 assist pace. Especially when over the last 2 seasons, 12 other players have scored at a higher assist pace (and another 5 right up behind that), whereas the only player with a goal pace close to Matthews over the last 2 years has been Ovechkin.

That's still a bit simplistic because it doesn't factor in linemate effects. How much of Matthews' bump this past season was due to playing with an elite playmaking winger who complemented his game tremendously? Did either of Crosby's wingers complement his game to that same degree?

Crosby's best asset (passing) requires his wingers to be able to bury the puck. Guentzel struggled this past year after that shoulder injury the prior year and wasn't the same "around the net" threat as prior years. So as a consequence, Crosby's assist totals took a hit. In comparison, Marner himself had a dominant year and was even voted 1st all-star right wing. So Matthews' best attribute (goal scoring) was further boosted by having a linemate take full advantage of it.

Like I said, based on age, I have no issue with Matthews being ranked ahead of Crosby. I just don't think it's as simplistic as "look at the gap in goal totals since their points are close" because there are factors outside the control of either of those two players that contributed to a]the goal totals and b]the point totals being what they were.