Top 50 players in the league #4

[Dion TheFluff]

g

Except I didn't. Draisaitl still gave up a ridiculous amount of chances this season. Among forwards with at least 750 5v5 minutes this year, Draisaitl gave up the 14th worst CA/60, 13th worst SA/60, 10th worst xGA/60, and 16th worst HDCA/60. His relative numbers were also bad. 13th worst in relCA/60, 12th worst in relSA/60, the worst in relxGA/60, and 6th worst in relHDCA/60. His RAPM chart is also once again considerably below average in terms of expected goals and corsi. His actual goals against were good because he had unsustainable goaltending behind him. Mike Smith had an underrated season. But even then, MacKinnon's GF/60, GA/60 and GF% were all better than Draisaitl's. Draisaitl is a really good player, maybe better than MacKinnon, but in order to score what he does, he gives up a lot the other way and that needs to be taken into account in his rankings instead of just looking at his point totals compared to other top players.

great analysis .
Draisaitl is probably the biggest double edge sword in the NHL ATM. Put up points like they are going out of style (Having McDavid doesn't hurt) but is an absolute liability defensively.

Anyone saying Draisaitl AINEC here is out to lunch IMO

 

[Regal]

I look forward to you doing the exact same thing 2-3 polls from now

Swing and a miss. My team doesn't have anyone in the running for awhile.

 

[Regal]

None of this really matters when you start comparing the hardware both have received. Give me the Hart winner over the guy with better GFGAAGGYF/42 any day.

You win games by outscoring your opponent not just seeing how many goals you can score. And even if we want to look at award voting, MacKinnon has 2 Hart runner up seasons, including 48 first place votes the same year Draisaitl won. Taking Draisaitl over MacKinnon is a reasonable choice, but it's not the clear choice some Oilers fans want to make it out to be.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

None of this really matters when you start comparing the hardware both have received. Give me the Hart winner over the guy with better GFGAAGGYF/42 any day.

I don't think you can just compare trophy case to determine who the better player is. I think that's just one factor. For instance, I don't think anyone will argue that Taylor Hall should be ranked ahead of MacKinnon in these rankings, yet of the two Hall's the only one with a Hart trophy.

I've defended Draisaitl numerous times, including against people that use the "he's carried by McDavid" argument. But at the same time, I don't think we can completely ignore the fact Draisaitl's totals are impacted positively by playing on a line with McDavid. So when comparing Draisaitl to similar level players who *don't* have the benefit of playing next to the best player in hockey, you have to factor that in when looking at overall production.

 

[amnesiac]

great analysis .
Draisaitl is probably the biggest double edge sword in the NHL ATM. Put up points like they are going out of style (Having McDavid doesn't hurt) but is an absolute liability defensively.

Anyone saying Draisaitl AINEC here is out to lunch IMO

poll proves otherwise.... but I mean other than McDavid is anyone "AINEC"?

And Draisaitl wouldnt get Selke votes if he was a liability defensively. You just made that up to support your vote.

I know you Leafs fans love Matthews and all, but Matthews benefits A LOT more from Marner, than Draisaitl does McDavid. Thats a fact.

 

[DowJones]

Easiest one since #1 for McDavid. I had Draisaitl at 3 but him an McKinnon are close imo.

2-4 is pretty open imo and I would have answered any of them on different occasions during the season.

Hedman is 5.

 

[Regal]

poll proves otherwise.... but I mean other than McDavid is anyone "AINEC"?

And Draisaitl wouldnt get Selke votes if he was a liability defensively. You just made that up to support your vote.

I know you Leafs fans love Matthews and all, but Matthews benefits A LOT more from Marner, than Draisaitl does McDavid. Thats a fact.

Then how come, over the last 3 seasons at 5v5, Draisaitl's P/60 drops from 3.42 with McDavid to 1.99 without, while Matthews's P/60 drops from 2.85 with Marner to 2.55 without?

 

[amnesiac]

Then how come, over the last 3 seasons at 5v5, Draisaitl's P/60 drops from 3.42 with McDavid to 1.99 without, while Matthews's P/60 drops from 2.85 with Marner to 2.55 without?

except Matthews/Marner play A LOT more together than Drai/McD, though, thats a fact. Hence he benefits more.

also Matthews still has decent linemates minus Marner, while Drai does not.

 

[Dion TheFluff]

poll proves otherwise.... but I mean other than McDavid is anyone "AINEC"?

And Draisaitl wouldnt get Selke votes if he was a liability defensively. You just made that up to support your vote.

I know you Leafs fans love Matthews and all, but Matthews benefits A LOT more from Marner, than Draisaitl does McDavid. Thats a fact.

except Matthews/Marner play A LOT more together than Drai/McD, though, thats a fact. Hence he benefits more.

also Matthews still has decent linemates minus Marner, while Drai does not.

keep digging man. He presented the numbers right in front of you and all your countering with is lame excuses.

 

[Dion TheFluff]

poll proves otherwise.... but I mean other than McDavid is anyone "AINEC"?

And Draisaitl wouldnt get Selke votes if he was a liability defensively. You just made that up to support your vote.

I know you Leafs fans love Matthews and all, but Matthews benefits A LOT more from Marner, than Draisaitl does McDavid. Thats a fact.

why not? all it takes is for an Oilers beat writer to use the excuse that he kills penalties to add him to their ballot even though the numbers show that at 5v5 he is a liability defensively.

 

[NotLeddy]

why not? all it takes is for an Oilers beat writer to use the excuse that he kills penalties to add him to their ballot even though the numbers show that at 5v5 he is a liability defensively.

There were tons of hilarious Selke votes this season.

Radek Faksa had a brutal year and was one of the worst skaters on the Stars and someone gave him a 3rd place vote, which is insane.

Draisaitl got two 2nd place Selke votes, and one 4th place votes. That's three votes out of 100 all together, and enough to disregard that argument that it means anything to take away from his struggles defensively this season at all. More people voted for Connor Brown than they did Draisaitl too, even if Brown didn't get 2nd place votes like LD did.

 

[amnesiac]

keep digging man. He presented the numbers right in front of you and all your countering with is lame excuses.

theyre not excuses, theyre facts.

Matthews and Marner play A LOT more together in a given NHL season than Drai and McDavid do. Fact!

I dont know you dont understand from that? No digging, no excuses, just facts.

 

[Dion TheFluff]

theyre not excuses, theyre facts.

Matthews and Marner play A LOT more together in a given NHL season than Drai and McDavid do. Fact!

I dont know you dont understand from that? No digging, no excuses, just facts.

he literally showed that Draisaitl numbers drop significantly more away from McDavid than what Matthews does away from Marner.
What facts are you showing

 

[Regal]

except Matthews/Marner play A LOT more together than Drai/McD, though, thats a fact. Hence he benefits more.

also Matthews still has decent linemates minus Marner, while Drai does not.

Those are rate stats, so more time wouldn't matter. Regardless, it's not true. Over that sample size, Matthews played with Marner 1366:24 and 1671:32 without. Or 45% of his 5v5 time with Marner. Meanwhile Draisaitl played 1702:10 with McDavid and 1749:59 without. Or 49% of his 5v5 time with McDavid.

Yes, WOWY isn't perfect. Matthews has better linemates without Marner and situational changes can affect these stats. That's still a huge drop for Draisaitl and doesn't suggest that it's "factual" that Matthews is helped more by Marner.

 

[amnesiac]

he literally showed that Draisaitl numbers drop significantly more away from McDavid than what Matthews does away from Marner.
What facts are you showing

Matthews and Marner over the course of a full NHL season have obviously played MORE together than Drai and McD have. Total time. Right?

 

[amnesiac]

Those are rate stats, so more time wouldn't matter. Regardless, it's not true. Over that sample size, Matthews played with Marner 1366:24 and 1671:32 without. Or 45% of his 5v5 time with Marner. Meanwhile Draisaitl played 1702:10 with McDavid and 1749:59 without. Or 49% of his 5v5 time with McDavid.

Yes, WOWY isn't perfect. Matthews has better linemates without Marner and situational changes can affect these stats. That's still a huge drop for Draisaitl and doesn't suggest that it's "factual" that Matthews is helped more by Marner.

What?? What time period is this? Everyone and my grandmother knows Drai and McD rarely play together 5 on 5, while Matthews and Marner do. I check the lines on a regular basis.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

What?? What time period is this? Everyone and my grandmother knows Drai and McD rarely play together 5 on 5, while Matthews and Marner do. I check the lines on a regular basis.

"Rarely" is a really poor word to use considering McDavid was second only to Yamamoto this year in terms of ice time played with Draisaitl.

 

[amnesiac]

"Rarely" is a really poor word to use considering McDavid was second only to Yamamoto this year in terms of ice time played with Draisaitl.

5 on 5 only or PP too? I was just talking 5 on 5

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

5 on 5 only or PP too? I was just talking 5 on 5

5on5. Yamamoto was the only forward who played more with Draisaitl than McDavid this season, and the difference was roughly like 40 or 50 total minutes.

 

[The Moose is Loose]

5on5. Yamamoto was the only forward who played more with Draisaitl than McDavid this season, and the difference was roughly like 40 or 50 total minutes.

To be fair there was little line stability or consistency for extended lengths of time