Top 50 Flames of the Last 25 Years - #2

Haatley · Jul 23, 2015

Theo. Easily.

FLAMESFAN · Jul 23, 2015

100 Third Graders said:
My issue with Kipper is that you remove Darryl as coach and the game opens up and he got roasted like a Christmas Turkey. Fleury was a star no matter what. Kipper was propped up by one of the best defensive groups in the league and when that went away he came crashing back to earth.

This is so wrong. Kipper turned that season around when he came over, instantly winning and getting us into the PO's for the first time in forever. If it was all the D or the system the other goalies that year would have done well too, nevermind that during Kipper's reign no other Flame goalie could come close to his success.
He also was the best goalie at the last World Cup in 2004 for Finland. Having a lockout in 2005 hurt us more than any other team IMO, as during this time Kipper was the hottest goalie on the planet.

Ace Rimmer · Jul 23, 2015

FLAMESFAN said:
This is so wrong. Kipper turned that season around when he came over, instantly winning and getting us into the PO's for the first time in forever. If it was all the D or the system the other goalies that year would have done well too, nevermind that during Kipper's reign no other Flame goalie could come close to his success.
He also was the best goalie at the last World Cup in 2004 for Finland. Having a lockout in 2005 hurt us more than any other team IMO, as during this time Kipper was the hottest goalie on the planet.

It was Darryl Sutter, and the defensive system he implemented that turned it around actually. Both Roman Turek and Jamie McLennan looked quite good under Sutter as well. Kipper was definitely better than those guys, but Sutter's (both) systems made him a Vezina candidate.

Lunatik · Jul 23, 2015

Stewie Griffin said:
It was Darryl Sutter, and the defensive system he implemented that turned it around actually. Both Roman Turek and Jamie McLennan looked quite good under Sutter as well. Kipper was definitely better than those guys, but Sutter's (both) systems made him a Vezina candidate.

Exactly this. Simply put his numbers under any coach not named Sutter was terrible.

danmcd15 · Jul 23, 2015

Blake "the Snake" Comeau

FLAMESFAN · Jul 23, 2015

Stewie Griffin said:
It was Darryl Sutter, and the defensive system he implemented that turned it around actually. Both Roman Turek and Jamie McLennan looked quite good under Sutter as well. Kipper was definitely better than those guys, but Sutter's (both) systems made him a Vezina candidate.

What was the record before Kipper showed up, and where did we end up? Giving Sutter's system all the credit is just wrong - they both needed each other.

InfinityIggy · Jul 23, 2015

FLAMESFAN said:
What was the record before Kipper showed up, and where did we end up? Giving Sutter's system all the credit is just wrong - they both needed each other.

Agreed. 100TG has a valid point regarding Sutter(s) systems, but when Kipper came in that year it completely changed the dynamic of the entire team. The team played like they had a world class goalie in net, because they did.

Turek looked strong that year, but he didn't even approach the level of Kipper.

Lunatik · Jul 23, 2015

FLAMESFAN said:
What was the record before Kipper showed up, and where did we end up? Giving Sutter's system all the credit is just wrong - they both needed each other.

So 1 year makes him #2? He had nearly as many average years as good years.

Ace Rimmer · Jul 23, 2015

FLAMESFAN said:
What was the record before Kipper showed up, and where did we end up? Giving Sutter's system all the credit is just wrong - they both needed each other.

What was the record before Darryl Sutter showed up and what was the record after? See what I did there? :popcorn:

Under Darryl Sutter, with basically the same teammates, Roman Turek's GAA went from 2.57 to 2.33 and SV% went from 0.902 to 0.914, while Jamie McLennan went from GAA of 2.99 to 2.20 and SV% from 0.892 to 0.910.

FLAMESFAN · Jul 23, 2015

100 Third Graders said:
So 1 year makes him #2? He had nearly as many average years as good years.

When a guy is a big reason why we make the playoffs after many miserable seasons, and takes us on one of the most memorable goalie PO performances, ya, it does.

Lunatik · Jul 23, 2015

FLAMESFAN said:
When a guy is a big reason why we make the playoffs after many miserable seasons, and takes us on one of the most memorable goalie PO performances, ya, it does.

that is such ridiculous logic :laugh:

FLAMESFAN · Jul 23, 2015

Stewie Griffin said:
What was the record before Darryl Sutter showed up and what was the record after? See what I did there?

Under Darryl Sutter, with basically the same teammates, Roman Turek's GAA went from 2.57 to 2.33 and SV% went from 0.902 to 0.914, while Jamie McLennan went from GAA of 2.99 to 2.20 and SV% from 0.892 to 0.910.

Then why were they a sub .500 team before Kipper, if Sutter's system was the reason for success? He needed a world class goalie, and Kipper was that.

Lunatik · Jul 23, 2015

FLAMESFAN said:
Then why were they a sub .500 team before Kipper, if Sutter's system was the reason for success? He needed a world class goalie, and Kipper was that.

the team also continued to win when Kipper was hurt. What is your explanation for that?

FLAMESFAN · Jul 23, 2015

100 Third Graders said:
that is such ridiculous logic

Glad I could entertain you.

How else should you judge players?

He was by far the best goalie we had during the time period stated, and was IMO the best goalie in the world for a span. That is why he is #2.

FLAMESFAN · Jul 23, 2015

100 Third Graders said:
the team also continued to win when Kipper was hurt. What is your explanation for that?

Record during injury?

Lunatik · Jul 23, 2015

FLAMESFAN said:
Glad I could entertain you.

How else should you judge players?

He was by far the best goalie we had during the time period stated, and was IMO the best goalie in the world for a span. That is why he is #2.

Best goalie in the world for what 2 years? because he was average the 3rd-5th years in Calgary. And being the best in Calgary doesn't mean much when his competition is a couple years of Turek, Bratherwaite and a year of Hiller/Ramo

I would judge them based on their ENTIRE time here in the past 25 years.

By your absolutely impeccable Gaudreau should be #3 because he helped lead the Flames to the playoffs after a long drought.

Ace Rimmer · Jul 23, 2015

FLAMESFAN said:
Then why were they a sub .500 team before Kipper, if Sutter's system was the reason for success? He needed a world class goalie, and Kipper was that.

Except they weren't a sub-.500 team without Kipper. They won more games than they lost after hiring Sutter, in 2002-03. In 03/04 they were what, one or two games under .500 when they acquired Kipper - with Turek and McLennan both playing injured no less. Kiprusoff was also injured during 2003/04, yet the team continued to win without him.

FLAMESFAN said:
He was by far the best goalie we had during the time period stated, and was IMO the best goalie in the world for a span. That is why he is #2.

I don't think anyone is arguing against that.

FLAMESFAN · Jul 23, 2015

100 Third Graders said:
Best goalie in the world for what 2 years? because he was average the 3rd-5th years in Calgary. And being the best in Calgary doesn't mean much when his competition is a couple years of Turek, Bratherwaite and a year of Hiller/Ramo

I would judge them based on their ENTIRE time here in the past 25 years.

By your absolutely impeccable Gaudreau should be #3 because he helped lead the Flames to the playoffs after a long drought.

If Gaudreau had been the talk of the town for 5/6 seasons and got us to the Cup, you bet he'd be in conversation. You are totally down playing the impact Kipper had on this team, and the vast majority disagree with you.

Lunatik · Jul 23, 2015

FLAMESFAN said:
Record during injury?

Prior to acquiring Kipper we were 7 games under .500 (after 19 games)
We finished 14 games over .500
So the team was 21 games over .500 after Kipper was acquired.
Kipper was 12 games over .500 (in 38 games)

Thus Turek/McLennan were a combined 9 games over .500 in the remaining 25 games after the acquisition of Kipper.

InfinityIggy · Jul 23, 2015

100 Third Graders said:
Prior to acquiring Kipper we were 7 games under .500 (after 19 games)
We finished 14 games over .500
So the team was 21 games over .500 after Kipper was acquired.
Kipper was 12 games over .500 (in 38 games)

Thus Turek/McLennan were a combined 9 games over .500 in the remaining 25 games after the acquisition of Kipper.

And then Kipper went on to have one of the greatest post seasons in Flames history.

Lunatik · Jul 23, 2015

InfinityIggy said:
And then Kipper went on to have one of the greatest post seasons in Flames history.

no one is disputing that. I am just not going to anoint him god for 2 really good seasons

InfinityIggy · Jul 23, 2015

100 Third Graders said:
no one is disputing that. I am just not going to anoint him god for 2 really good seasons

Fair enough, I just feel like he is really getting downplayed here for what he did that year.

Wayne Primeau · Jul 23, 2015

Quit your bickering - poll three is up.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1932593

Top 50 Flames of the Last 25 Years - #2

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