Top 40 Canucks - Round 2 Discussion/Vote

[Barney Gumble]

I probably bumped up Gradin too much on my list as I considered the environment he played under. No, not the medicore/crappy team he was on; but rather it was around only five years since Salming broke into the league. Sure he likely didn't face the same crap as Salming did; but it still wasn't that "euro-friendly" a league back then.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I probably bumped up Gradin too much on my list as I considered the environment he played under. No, not the medicore/crappy team he was on; but rather it was around only five years since Salming broke into the league. Sure he likely didn't face the same crap as Salming did; but it still wasn't that "euro-friendly" a league back then.

swedish players in that 1982 finals game MS posted above: per-olov brasar, anders eldebrink, thomas gradin, lars lindgren, lars molin (canucks); tomas jonsson, anders kallur, stefan persson (islanders). not counting bobby nystrom, of course.

not saying it wasn't hard for gradin, but obviously he was hardly alone.

 

[Barney Gumble]

I was more referring to Gradin's first few seasons in the NHL.

Eldebrink is an interesting name from the past. I knew a Swedish person who followed hockey during this period and told me he turned out to be one of the (if not the) best defensemen for that country in his playing days. Too bad he didn't work out for us; could've used a guy like that with his skills.

 

[kmad]

I can't see a reason to put Smyl ahead of McLean. Captain Kirk was one lucky bounce away from winning the Conn Smythe and bringing a Cup to Vancouver. Add that to his regular season peaks (two Vezina nominations, 4th place Hart, 2nd team AST) and I don't think Smyl's longevity can make up for it.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Top 3 in Points:

Player| 1st| 2nd| 3rd| Total
Markus Naslund|7| |2| 9
Henrik Sedin| 6| 3| | 9
Daniel Sedin| 3| 5| 1| 9
Thomas Gradin| 2| 3| 2| 7
Trevor Linden| 2| 4| | 6
Donald Lever| |2| 4| 6
Andre Boudrias| 4| 1| | 5
Pavel Bure| 4| | 1| 5
Stan Smyl| 2| 3| | 5
Geoff Courtnall| |2| 3| 5
Petri Skriko| 3| |1| 4
Tony Tanti| 2| 2| | 4
Alexander Mogilny| 2| | 2| 4
Cliff Ronning| |2| 2| 4
Todd Bertuzzi| |2| 2| 4
Ryan Kesler| | |4| 4
Patrik Sundstrom| 2| | 1| 3
Rick Blight| 1| 2| | 3
Dennis Ververgaert| 1| 1| 1| 3
Mark Messier| |2| 1| 3
Greg Adams| |1| 2| 3
Brendan Morrison| |1| 2| 3
Alexandre Burrows| | | 1| 1

*Defenceman


Leading Goals:

Player| Goals 1st
Markus Naslund| 6
Tony Tanti| 5
Pavel Bure |5
Daniel Sedin| 4
Bobby Schmautz| 2
Dennis Ververgaert| 2
Trevor Linden| 2
Ryan Kesler| 2
Andre Boudrias| 1
Donald Lever| 1
Ron Sedlbauer| 1
Rick Blight| 1
Mike Walton| 1
Thomas Gradin| 1
Stan Smyl| 1
Darcy Rota |1
Dave Williams| 1
Petri Skriko| 1
Greg Adams| 1
Martin Gelinas| 1
Alexander Mogilny| 1
Alexandre Burrows| 1
Rosaire Paiement| 1

Leading Assists:

Player| Assists 1st
Henrik Sedin| 8
Thomas Gradin| 5
Dennis Kearns*| 4
Markus Naslund| 3
Pavel Bure| 3
Andre Boudrias| 3
Alexander Mogilny| 2
Patrik Sundstrom| 2
Barry Pederson| 2
Cliff Ronning| 2
Andrew Cassels| 2
Trevor Linden| 1
Stan Smyl| 1
Chris Oddleifson| 1
Mark Messier| 1
Dale Tallon*| 1
Jocelyn Guevremont*| 1

*Defenceman

League Top 20 Points:

Player| Total| Top 20's
Henrik Sedin| 5| 1, 4, 9, 14, 20
Daniel Sedin| 3| 1, 12, 14
Markus Naslund| 3| 2, 2, 4
Pavel Bure| 3| 3, 5, 13
Todd Bertuzzi| 2| 3, 5
Andre Boudrias| 2| 20, 20
Alexander Mogilny| 1| 9
Ryan Kesler| 1| 15
Ivan Boldriev| 1| 17
Stan Smyl| 1| 20

League Top 20 Goals:

Player| Total| Top 20's
Markus Naslund| 4| 2, 5, 8, 15
Pavel Bure| 3| 1, 3, 5
Alexander Mogliny| 2| 3, 8
Todd Bertuzzi| 2| 3, 13
Daniel Sedin| 2| 4, 19
Tony Tanti| 2| 12, 12
Ryan Kesler| 1| 4
Ron Sedlbauer| 1| 10
Alexandre Burrows| 1| 10
Don Lever| 1| 13
Bobby Schmautz| 1| 15
Dennis Ververgaert| 1| 15
Martin Gelinas| 1| 17
Darcy Rota| 1| 19
Ivan Boldriev| 1| 20

 

[Captain Bowie]

The way I've got it going into this round:

Smyl/McLean/Ohlund

Gradin/Kesler/Bertuzzi/Lumme

Tanti/Snepsts/Boudrias/Ronning/Burrows/Adams

 

[Captain Bowie]

Not much discussion this round...

 

[kmad]

I've got Bertuzzi a bit lower than you do. Pretty ineffective in the playoffs and his tenure was a bit short.

 

[Regal]

I've got Bertuzzi a bit lower than you do. Pretty ineffective in the playoffs and his tenure was a bit short.

He's an interesting one. How much stock should we put in his two great years when there's a lot of mediocre outside of that?

 

[Alan Jackson]

I'd again like to pump the tires of Jyrki Lumme. He, like Ohlund, won the Babe Pratt trophy 4 times.

I remember how Robson and Larscheid always talked about how Lumme was one of the best kept secrets in the NHL, and Robson even suggested he should get some Norris consideration one season.

I think he was every bit the player Mattias Ohlund was, and I think Lumme's peak was actually a bit higher.

He was also a key player on a team that had some playoff success.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

after my top five (smyl, mclean, ohlund, gradin, kesler in some order), i have burrows, ronning, and adams in a group. wondering whether snepsts also belongs there...

and no idea what to do with boudrias but he and snepsts are my frontrunner for the last two top ten spots for this round.

would like to hear more about lumme though; on paper, he seems like a numminen type 1a, but as i recall when sledding got tough you'd usually see diduck (and babych) taking the toughest minutes. i liked lumme but always felt like he was more our top d-man because we didn't have a true top d-man; but maybe i'll admit i was pretty young in the early 90s and possibly spoiled/entitled by having a superstar RW and G...

 

[Barney Gumble]

He's an interesting one. How much stock should we put in his two great years when there's a lot of mediocre outside of that?

I might be in the minority but I knocked him down a few pegs for his selfish actions against Moore that hardly helped us in the post-season that year.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

He's an interesting one. How much stock should we put in his two great years when there's a lot of mediocre outside of that?

I might be in the minority but I knocked him down a few pegs for his selfish actions against Moore that hardly helped us in the post-season that year.

and to be precise, it was actually 1.5 great years, and in those 1.5 years only 2.6 great playoff games total.

i think bertuzzi vs. mogilny will be an interesting discussion. against burrows or cliffy or gus, he's not even on the radar.


EDIT: let's reminisce:







(^ game 1, smythe semis: the real beginning of the pat quinn era, imo)

 

[Captain Bowie]

The thing that Bertuzzi has on the rest of those guys is that he was on the league radar for a couple years. The best power forward in the game, top 10/20 forward, got Hart votes, had high post-season AS results, top 3 goals (1), top 5 points (2).

Easily the highest 2-year peak this round.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

The thing that Bertuzzi has on the rest of those guys is that he was on the league radar for a couple years. The best power forward in the game, top 10/20 forward, got Hart votes, had high post-season AS results, top 3 goals (1), top 5 points (2).

Easily the highest 2-year peak this round.

mclean peaked higher '91-'93, imo.

4th in hart voting behind peak messier, peak roy, and peak brett hull (and ahead of mario in an art ross/conn smythe year) > the hart votes bertuzzi got in a year where almost every elite forward was injured or off his game. bertuzzi's other season is better than mclean's other season, but then only half of bertuzzi's '02 season was elite so how much does it really add relative to mclean's beastly '92?

to say nothing of the '94 playoffs, of course.

 

[Captain Bowie]

mclean peaked higher '91-'93, imo.

4th in hart voting behind peak messier, peak roy, and peak brett hull (and ahead of mario in an art ross/conn smythe year) > the hart votes bertuzzi got in a year where almost every elite forward was injured or off his game. bertuzzi's other season is better than mclean's other season, but then only half of bertuzzi's '02 season was elite so how much does it really add relative to mclean's beastly '92?

to say nothing of the '94 playoffs, of course.

You're right, and to be honest I was only thinking about the other forwards and D on the list, and didn't think about McLean.

At worst, their peaks are equal. There is a good argument to be made for McLean's being better, and you just made it.

And that's part of the reason why McLean is in the mix for top 3 this round, and Bert is not.

Bertuzzi vs. Kesler is a tough one for me. I had Bert higher on the initial list, but I don't think I gave Kesler enough credit for his Selkeness.

 

[Barney Gumble]

i think bertuzzi vs. mogilny will be an interesting discussion.

During Bert's "allstar years", he had another allstar on his line. Not saying he leached off of Naslund (they both helped each other games out) but rather that Mogilny didn't have the same privilege during his 'peak Canuck years' (him and Bure never seemed to be healthy at the same time nor particularly liked playing with the other).

Mogilny carried the team when he was hot (granted, injuries limited that time to short period)

Bertuzzi vs. Kesler is a tough one for me. I had Bert higher on the initial list, but I don't think I gave Kesler enough credit for his Selkeness.

I'll give the nod to Kesler given the tougher position he had to play.

 

[kmad]

Bertuzzi only really has his brief regular season offensive peak, Kesler wins playoffs, longevity and complete game

 

[Captain Bowie]

Bertuzzi only really has his brief regular season offensive peak, Kesler wins playoffs, longevity and complete game

Interesting...

I mean, Kesler played a fair bit more games and seasons as a Canuck, so in a way this should be obvious.

Kesler wasn't anything more than a young player learning the ropes on the 3rd line until 07/08 at 23 years old. Even in that season, he and Burrows made up 2/3's of a fantastic checking line that played the minutes of a 2nd line due to the lack of depth on the team.

Kesler played 158 games before that 07/08 season.

Todd Bertuzzi came to the Canucks part way through the 97/98 season, at the age of 22. This gives us a somewhat natural place to start a comparison.

Age 23:
Bertuzzi - 32 games, 8 goals, 8 assists, -6, 18:48 avg toi
Kesler - 80 games, 21 goals, 16 assists, +1, 19:03 avg toi


Age 24:
Bertuzzi - 80 games, 25 goals, 25 assists, -2, 15:34 avg toi
Kesler - 82 games, 26 goals, 33 assists, +8, 19:28 avg toi

Age 25:
Bertuzzi - 79 games, 25 goals, 30 assists, -18, 17:13 avg toi
Kesler - 82 games, 25 goals, 50 assists, +1, 19:38 avg toi

Age 26:
Bertuzzi - 72 games, 36 goals, 49 assists, +21, 19:40 avg toi
Kesler - 82 games, 41 goals, 32 assists, +24, 20:30 avg toi

Age 27:
Bertuzzi - 82 games, 46 goals, 51 assists, +2, 20:34 avg toi
Kesler - 77 games, 22 goals, 27 assists, +11, 20:06 avg toi

Age 28:
Bertuzzi - 69 games, 17 goals, 43 assists, +21, 21:00 avg toi
Kesler - 17 games, 4 goals, 9 assists, -5, 18:57 avg toi

Age 29/30:
Bertuzzi* - 82 games, 25 goals, 46 assists, -17, 19:08 avg toi
Kesler - 77 games, 25 goals, 18 assists, -15, 21:49 avg toi

I used Bert's 30 yo season since he lost his 29 yo season to the lockout, and this would be the last season for both as a Canuck.

I posted this from work and about to head home, will add further thoughts later tonight.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i think 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 11th place selke finishes in five years, with a 40 goal year, a different year where he hit 75 points, and 8th place hart finish/4th place AST at center put kesler comfortably ahead of the burrows, ronning, adams group. and those three guys are comfortably ahead of bertuzzi for me.

but question: can someone who remembers it tell me about mclean's '89 season? he finishes 3rd in vezina voting, but only 6th in AST voting. his stats seem pretty pedestrian other than his 4 shutouts. on the other hand, the canucks did make the playoffs, which in that era wasn't nothing. what should we make of that season? my assumption is it was roy, then vernon, then a whole bunch of guys who were pretty indistinguishable. but while i do vaguely remember 80s canucks, i certainly lacked the ability (and the knowledge of the rest of the league) to determine whether mclean was elite or not.

 

[Regal]

and to be precise, it was actually 1.5 great years, and in those 1.5 years only 2.6 great playoff games total.

i think bertuzzi vs. mogilny will be an interesting discussion. against burrows or cliffy or gus, he's not even on the radar.

I think Bert is easily ahead of Mogilny. I had Burrows ahead, but Ronning and Adams later. I think it's hard to separate him from the aura of the WCE and then just look at it as really only 1.5 years. That was a pretty exiting time as a fan after a lot of ineptitude, and even without the playoff success, it was among the best regular season periods in team history. He was a pretty good player in the two seasons before his breakout as well, and still put up the points even if he was dogging it the two seasons after. He wasn't on the level of Ronning or Adams those years, but it's not as if he did nothing outside of his peak.

 

[kmad]

Interesting...

I mean, Kesler played a fair bit more games and seasons as a Canuck, so in a way this should be obvious.

Kesler wasn't anything more than a young player learning the ropes on the 3rd line until 07/08 at 23 years old. Even in that season, he and Burrows made up 2/3's of a fantastic checking line that played the minutes of a 2nd line due to the lack of depth on the team.

Kesler played 158 games before that 07/08 season.

Todd Bertuzzi came to the Canucks part way through the 97/98 season, at the age of 22. This gives us a somewhat natural place to start a comparison.

Age 23:
Bertuzzi - 32 games, 8 goals, 8 assists, -6, 18:48 avg toi
Kesler - 80 games, 21 goals, 16 assists, +1, 19:03 avg toi


Age 24:
Bertuzzi - 80 games, 25 goals, 25 assists, -2, 15:34 avg toi
Kesler - 82 games, 26 goals, 33 assists, +8, 19:28 avg toi

Age 25:
Bertuzzi - 79 games, 25 goals, 30 assists, -18, 17:13 avg toi
Kesler - 82 games, 25 goals, 50 assists, +1, 19:38 avg toi

Age 26:
Bertuzzi - 72 games, 36 goals, 49 assists, +21, 19:40 avg toi
Kesler - 82 games, 41 goals, 32 assists, +24, 20:30 avg toi

Age 27:
Bertuzzi - 82 games, 46 goals, 51 assists, +2, 20:34 avg toi
Kesler - 77 games, 22 goals, 27 assists, +11, 20:06 avg toi

Age 28:
Bertuzzi - 69 games, 17 goals, 43 assists, +21, 21:00 avg toi
Kesler - 17 games, 4 goals, 9 assists, -5, 18:57 avg toi

Age 29/30:
Bertuzzi* - 82 games, 25 goals, 46 assists, -17, 19:08 avg toi
Kesler - 77 games, 25 goals, 18 assists, -15, 21:49 avg toi

I used Bert's 30 yo season since he lost his 29 yo season to the lockout, and this would be the last season for both as a Canuck.

I posted this from work and about to head home, will add further thoughts later tonight.

Using points as the only barometer is completely ignoring Kesler's strong point. Before he started putting up points he was already a great defensive center and penalty killer. Bertuzzi never had a defensive bone in his body.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Using points as the only barometer is completely ignoring Kesler's strong point. Before he started putting up points he was already a great defensive center and penalty killer. Bertuzzi never had a defensive bone in his body.

My point wasn't that Bertuzzi was better because he had x more points, I was going to add further analysis last night but didn't get around to it.

I was strictly going to look at the longevity factor and Kesler's supposed edge in that category.

Going by games played, it should be obvious. But I want to make a point for the contrary. Kesler's first 3 years were spent as a youngster just learning the ropes, much like Bo Horvat today. 20 years from know, would people be using Horvat's 14/15 season as an argument for him in an all-time discussion? I doubt it. So I don't think Kesler's first few years count for much.

Age 23:
Bertuzzi - 32 games, 8 goals, 8 assists, -6, 18:48 avg toi
Kesler - 80 games, 21 goals, 16 assists, +1, 19:03 avg toi

Age 24:
Bertuzzi - 80 games, 25 goals, 25 assists, -2, 15:34 avg toi
Kesler - 82 games, 26 goals, 33 assists, +8, 19:28 avg toi

Age 25:
Bertuzzi - 79 games, 25 goals, 30 assists, -18, 17:13 avg toi
Kesler - 82 games, 25 goals, 50 assists, +1, 19:38 avg toi

Age 26:
Bertuzzi - 72 games, 36 goals, 49 assists, +21, 19:40 avg toi
Kesler - 82 games, 41 goals, 32 assists, +24, 20:30 avg toi

Age 27:
Bertuzzi - 82 games, 46 goals, 51 assists, +2, 20:34 avg toi
Kesler - 77 games, 22 goals, 27 assists, +11, 20:06 avg toi

Age 28:
Bertuzzi - 69 games, 17 goals, 43 assists, +21, 21:00 avg toi
Kesler - 17 games, 4 goals, 9 assists, -5, 18:57 avg toi

Age 29/30:
Bertuzzi* - 82 games, 25 goals, 46 assists, -17, 19:08 avg toi
Kesler - 77 games, 25 goals, 18 assists, -15, 21:49 avg toi

I used Bert's 30 yo season since he lost his 29 yo season to the lockout, and this would be the last season for both as a Canuck.

I posted this from work and about to head home, will add further thoughts later tonight.

In terms of who had a bigger impact on the team, considering everything, who many years would you give the edge to Bertuzzi?

I would think:

24 - Kesler
25 - Kesler
26 - Close, but probably Kesler
27 - Bertuzzi
28 - Bertuzzi
29/30 - Bertuzzi

So overall, pretty close, right?

In their peak years, Bertuzzi's offensive edge has to do a good job in making up for Kesler's defensive game, right?

 

[kmad]

Are we counting playoffs?

Also there's no way that any of Bertuzzi's seasons eclipse Kesler's 2010/11 (age 27). Of all seasons that Canuck players have had in history, I would only put Naslund's 02/03, Henrik's 09/10, Bure's 93/94, and Luongo's 06/07 ahead.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Are we counting playoffs?

Also there's no way that any of Bertuzzi's seasons eclipse Kesler's 2010/11 (age 27). Of all seasons that Canuck players have had in history, I would only put Naslund's 02/03, Henrik's 09/10, Bure's 93/94, and Luongo's 06/07 ahead.

10/11 was his 26-year old season, at least according to hockey-reference.

And I gave Kesler that season, even though it came up against Bertuzzi's 02/03 year.