Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time
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Yozhik v tumane
Registered User
- Jan 2, 2019
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I really enjoyed following the discussions throughout this project, you all did a great job.
I’m curious, will you at some point be posting an aggregate list and the individual voting records as was done after the 2019 top 100 project? I’d guess the debates won’t be as heated as the ones concerning C1958’s Gretzky at 6th or Crosby being lowballed, but I bet it could still make for interesting discussion.
I’m curious, will you at some point be posting an aggregate list and the individual voting records as was done after the 2019 top 100 project? I’d guess the debates won’t be as heated as the ones concerning C1958’s Gretzky at 6th or Crosby being lowballed, but I bet it could still make for interesting discussion.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Yes, I'll be doing it. Should have done it already. Sorry, I'm a procrastinator...
Yozhik v tumane
Registered User
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Don’t beat yourself up over it, I was simply wondering if there were concrete plans. Truly appreciate the time and effort you put into this!
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Thanks. I'd be willing to help, though I'm aware that sending me the info to "help" might be as much or more work for you than just posting it.
Thanks again for picking things up and finishing this project.
NigerianNightmare
Lürssen > Feadship
I just had a quick look at the rankings and was shocked.
Vladimir Krutov should be above Gilmour, Iginla and many others on this list. The man was a legend of the 80's, he was better than Jarri Kurri. Krutov was the best LW in the world in his prime. He deserves to be in top 40 - at least.
Vladimir Krutov should be above Gilmour, Iginla and many others on this list. The man was a legend of the 80's, he was better than Jarri Kurri. Krutov was the best LW in the world in his prime. He deserves to be in top 40 - at least.
Yozhik v tumane
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Krutov first appeared in the 6th round of voting for the top 200 project and was immediately voted in at that point. There was a lot of “what to do with five seasons of McDavid”-talk in that thread but eventually Krutov entered the conversation. Based on his offensive numbers relative to the Soviet League, it was hard to spot consistent dominance by Krutov over an extended span, and @seventieslord deduced that Krutov didn’t look out of place appearing at that point in voting (as opposed to much earlier). @TheDevilMadeMe added that in addition to scoring, Krutov brought physicality and responsible defense to his game, while also being a notable big game player whose Canada Cup record is arguably at Makarov’s level, only trumped by Gretzky, then considerably above the rest of the field. @Batis contributed with some quotes and video examples to highlight Krutov’s game.
I think it’s fair to say that some would penalize Krutov for his expedite downturn following the Soviet era and disappointing NHL venture, I think many might second guess common views of people who saw him dominate on the KLM line in the 80s as more of a product of Makarov than perhaps thought at the time. I’ve also had the sense that some will place more weight on the ability to transition to the North American game than I would personally like to do, I think it’s a pretty steep hurdle to move from the communist bloc to the West and transition to the NHL in your late 20s/early 30s if you’ve never played that kind of hockey and schedule, and it shouldn’t unduly be weighing someone down.
With that being said, I think the top 40 sounds crazy high for Krutov. If you mean top 40 among all players ever, then a hard no, I can’t see it. For left wingers? Definitely. For all wingers? He probably has a case. Comparing Kurri to Krutov I think would be an interesting case study. With “the best left winger in the game” arguments, we often have this problem with what this means. Sometimes it referred to Bobby Hull, sometimes to Ovechkin, but sometimes it might have referred to Clark Gillies or Markus Näslund.
We haven’t had the chance to see the aggregate lists and individual voting records for the top 200 project, but for the top 100 we can see that 6 out of 32 lists featured Krutov, with the highest placement being 65th by @Dennis Bonvie. I noted that not even @Sentinel, who tends to pump Russians’ tiers, placed Krutov in his top 100.
NigerianNightmare
Lürssen > Feadship
Krutov wasn't a product of Makarov. He was a product of the Soviet hockey school and Tikhonov's coaching.
His post-Soviet league decline started to his personal inability to adjust to the North American lifestyle and drinking habits.
Krutov was absolutely better than most wingers of the 80's - better than Kurri, Goulet and thousands of others. Only two wingers, Bossy and Makarov could be considered above Krutov in that era.
His post-Soviet league decline started to his personal inability to adjust to the North American lifestyle and drinking habits.
Krutov was absolutely better than most wingers of the 80's - better than Kurri, Goulet and thousands of others. Only two wingers, Bossy and Makarov could be considered above Krutov in that era.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
There weren't that many wingers in the 80s lol
Ok rather than just stating platitudes please make your case?
NigerianNightmare
Lürssen > Feadship
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Yeah, so your case hinges on 3 best on best tournaments where he played with Makarov and Larionov as with of his entire career.
In soviet league scoring, he was routinely second to his own linemate....in a league that wasn't exactly "balanced"
Top 40 all time is ridiculous
NigerianNightmare
Lürssen > Feadship
Obviously, you omitted the multiple Soviets vs NHL Superseries on purpose. Plus, tons of other international tournaments.
I agree that Makarov was better than him, in spite of Krutov having outscored Makarov in several seasons. You just confirmed my opinion. Thanks and best regards.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
I did miss that part of your comment and focused in on the Canada Cup comments
I'd like you to show your work on the bolded, because I'm not sure he did in "several" seasons. Makarov led the Soviet league 9 times in points, Krutov never did. Unless you're explicitly referring to goal scoring, then they both led the USSR 3x a piece
NigerianNightmare
Lürssen > Feadship
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Goal scoring is such a distorted lense to make a comparison to Makarov a notably very good playmaker. The one season Krutov had more points (82-83) Makarov missed 14 games
Below are their point totals from 77/78-88/89
| Makarov Pts | Krutov Pts | % Makarov | |
| 1978-79 | 39 | 11 | 355% |
| 1979-80 | 68 | 42 | 162% |
| 1980-81 | 79 | 40 | 198% |
| 1981-82 | 75 | 66 | 114% |
| 1982-83 | 42 | 53 | 79% |
| 1983-84 | 73 | 57 | 128% |
| 1984-85 | 65 | 53 | 123% |
| 1985-86 | 62 | 48 | 129% |
| 1986-87 | 53 | 50 | 106% |
| 1987-88 | 68 | 42 | 162% |
| 1988-89 | 54 | 41 | 132% |
Makarov destroys Krutov pretty much every season. If you think being the second best scorer in the second best league in the world on a stacked team is worthy of being top 40 all time I don't know what to say to you anymore.
NigerianNightmare
Lürssen > Feadship
You keep confirming my opinion that Makarov was better than Krutov.
I can see how conveniently you disregard Krutov's other achievements.
How about a different angle: Krutov was the second best scorer on the most-winning (most successful) team in the history of modern hockey.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
In an unbalanced league on a team with 4 of the other best soviets in the world at the time in Fetisov, Kasatonov, Makarov, and Larionov. The system was built to help CSKA Moskva dominate lol
The amount of effort their coach Viktor Tikhonov spent poaching other players was truly impressive
He was probably the 3rd most valuable player on that team as well....
NigerianNightmare
Lürssen > Feadship
Exactly, it was one of the greatest dream teams ever assembled (just like Gretzky's Oilers). Hence, an enormous winning track-record of the Army club.
Krutov made this team and remained one of its key players for almost a decade. It is an amazing achievement.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
I feel like if you think this is a remotely fair comparison you might be lacking in understanding regarding the soviet league.
NigerianNightmare
Lürssen > Feadship
I watched tons of hockey in the 80's including the Soviet league that was almost as good as the NHL in those days. That's why CSKA, Dynamo, Khimik and others were very successful playing against the NHL teams.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
If the argument is he's the 3rd best winger of the 1980s, then isn't a top 40 placement a little generous? There's 120 years of pro hockey and top 40 is, by definition, exclusive. This same forum only had 10 wingers in the top 40 all-time players. So the 3rd best of the 80s is a top 10 all-time? A top 40 winger seems a bit more appropriate.
I have Krutov higher than 127 on my list, but top 40 is a stretch. Would anyone argue he's any better than 3rd best Soviet of the 1980s behind Makarov or Fetisov?
I have Krutov higher than 127 on my list, but top 40 is a stretch. Would anyone argue he's any better than 3rd best Soviet of the 1980s behind Makarov or Fetisov?
NigerianNightmare
Lürssen > Feadship
Good point! Well, maybe top 40 of all time was a bit of a stretch (depends how many wingers one would include in top 40).
I'd rank Krutov as the 4th best Soviet of the 80s behind Fetisov, Tretiak and Makarov.
Thanks for bringing Fetisov into the discussion. I'm sure that Fetisov ranks above Makarov all-time.
Fetisov is arguably the greatest European-born player in history, taking his exceptional leadership, winning mindset and longevity into consideration (sorry, Jagr, Tretiak and Ovechkin). He was a true winner on all levels (on ice vs other world's best players, fighting the Soviet bureaucrats, mentoring guys like Nik Lidstrom). Fetisov deserves a separate thread on here.
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
So Krutov was the third most valuable player behind two players that were ranked 25th and 26th on the top 100 list.
Don't think that's much of an argument.
Personally, I had Krutov ranked ahead of Kurri also.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
That's a good point, but the margins at which he was being beaten by Makarov are staggering (as I posted in that table last page) and they were clearly the most talented team in a weak league.
Internationally in best on bests it was shown that definitely the top soviets could matchup with the best of Canada
The thing is that if Krutov had stopped playing and retired after 88/89 then his case would be alot better.
His play in the NHL and Swiss league after that despite being not super old just really hurts him and he looks more a product of the system than great individual player in his own right.
Blame hot dogs if you want.
As a side note is this an awesome SC contender with players at their peak (not possible as some were in their late teens to be sure during the season). 88-89 CSKA Moscow
CSKA Moscow 1988-89 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com
