Top 20 Swedish players of all time

[jkrx]

I was never a home-team fan of Loob who saw him play every night, but I've seen enough of him to know how good he was and what sort of player he was.

Adjusted stats are a great tool for comparison, and when you look at the complete domination of the Sedins vs. Loob in adjusted stats and in league scoring placings, the notion that Loob is a better player than the Sedins is an absolute farce.

You are now completely ignoring the level of competition as you constantly point out to me that I'm doing. You can't compare the the finishing palces in a scoring race at that fundamental way you are doing it. Loob played in a much smaller league which increases the quality of each team.

I'm not a hometown fan Loob either. In fact, I'm from Winnipeg originally.

Uh, until later today?

Sedins have won an Olympic Gold (in a best-on-best tourney as opposed to the weak pre-1998 format), a SEL title, and potentially a Stanley Cup.

Once again, you are ignoring what I write. The Sedins werent exactly key-players of those swedish teams and they are definitly not the reason that Canucks is one game from a Cup.

SEL was and is an AHL calibre league. Any first-line player in the prime of his career would have looked ridiculously good against that level of competition.

Yet no player has done what Loob did and you obviously don't know what I'm talking about because you constantly avoid this.

Excellent performance and a fine feather in his cap. Unfortunately that was the only best-on-best tournament he played in.

Unfortunately one good international tournament and one top-20 NHL scoring finish doesn't match up to a player who has won an Art Ross, a Hart, led the NHL in assists twice, and so on.

Yes, Sedins are good. I'm not disputing that but Loob were great everywhere he went.

And please stop manipulating my words. I said his first 4 seasons were the performance of an average second line player, and they were. I also said his 1987-88 season was near-elite.

How can a top10 finish be near-elite?

Loob was obviously an excellent player. But he had 1 season in his career where he played legitimately outstanding hockey against legitimate quality players. And that season still was nowhere near either of Henrik Sedin's best two seasons.

 

[dennilfloss]

Inge Hammarström only averaged about 40 points a season but for some reason I remember his name to this day and I wasn't even a Toronto fan.

 

[MS]

You are now completely ignoring the level of competition as you constantly point out to me that I'm doing. You can't compare the the finishing palces in a scoring race at that fundamental way you are doing it. Loob played in a much smaller league which increases the quality of each team.

This makes no sense.

The 10th or 20th-best scorer in the league will (by and large) be the 10th or 20th-best scorer no matter if there are 6 or 21 or 50 teams in the league. Adding a whole bunch of bad players at the bottom end of the scale isn't going to change who the best players are.

Once again, you are ignoring what I write. The Sedins werent exactly key-players of those swedish teams and they are definitly not the reason that Canucks is one game from a Cup.

???

Aside from the fact that Henrik is leading the team (and the NHL through 3 rounds) in scoring? Aside from the fact that he completely destroyed San Jose? Aside from the fact that Daniel was Vancouver's best forward in the Chicago series? They haven't had a great Finals but to say they aren't a key reason Vancouver are where they are is ridiculous.

The were also SEL MVPs the year Modo won the league.

At the Olympics, sure. They weren't great, although they were stuck with a one-eyed hack for a linemate.

Yet no player has done what Loob did and you obviously don't know what I'm talking about because you constantly avoid this.

I know he has the SEL scoring record. And again, I don't think it means much.

Is Fredrik Lindqvist/Bremberg an all-time great Swedish player, too? How about the above-mentioned Weinhandl?

Yes, Sedins are good. I'm not disputing that but Loob were great everywhere he went.

Ah, the Hart Trophy is 'good' but scoring at an obscene rate in the SEL in 1983 is 'great'. Seriously?

Henrik Sedin was judged to be the best player in the best league in the world. He's the best playmaking center on the planet and has led the NHL in assists twice. Nothing Hakan Loob ever did is even close.

He had 6 seasons in the NHL in the prime of his career, playing for an excellent team, and produced 1 season that was truly noteworthy, and that season was still nowhere near as good as Henrik Sedin's best seasons. The notion that Loob is somehow better than Sedin is ridiculous.

 

[21]

HÃ¥kan Loob should definately be on a top 20 list if you ask me. Where on the list is a more difficult question, maybe top 10.

One of very few who have won the Stanley Cup, an Olympic gold medal, and a World Championship title.

also you have to look at both his stats in SEL and in the NHL, not NHL alone. NHL record in goals during one season for a Swede with 50?

I also consider Loob one of the very best GM/Club managers in Sweden, all time. Loob is a born winner and very demanding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Håkan_Loob

 

[tony d]

Based upon NHL careers:

1) Lidstrom
2) Sundin
3) Forsberg
4) Alfredsson
5) Salming
6) Naslund
7) Steen
8) Lundqvist
9) Zetterberg
10) D. Sedin
11) H.Sedin
12) Nilsson
13) Dahlen
14) Samuelsson
15) Gradin
16) Mats Naslund
17) Johansson
18) Olausson
19) Sundstrom
20) Holmstrom

 

[sr edler]

Sedins have won an Olympic Gold

yes as third line passengers

in 2010 when the sedins were supposed to carry the team it went nowhere

a SEL title

the league? it doesn't mean anything

it's the championship you're supposed to win and the sedins didn't do that but fumbled on it


håkan loob was a great player - swedish fans who saw him in many international tournaments knows that - he was probably the best swedish goal scorer ever but he could do everything on the ice except perhaps run people eric lindros style - and he was also a winner everywhere he went

sedins can definitely rank in front of loob when everything is said and done but loob was definitely a better goal scorer, he was tougher and i think his game were of more dimensions, he was also an underrated playmaker, when joe nieuwendyk scored 51 goals as a rookie he played on a line with loob

vladimir krutov was a scrub too? he only scored 34 nhl points

 

[seventieslord]

1983-84 43 adjusted points - 103rd in NHL scoring
1984-85 57 adjusted points - 46th in NHL scoring
1985-86 52 adjusted points - 71st in NHL scoring
1986-87 37 adjusted points - 144th in NHL scoring
1987-88 89 adjusted points - 9th in NHL scoring
1988-89 70 adjusted points - 25th in NHL scoring

Like I said, his first 4 seasons, he was an average 2nd line player. Then he had one near-elite season and one other season where he was a solid first-line player. And he was age 23-29, dead in the prime years of his career, so we got a pretty good view of him as a player.

In those first 4 years he averaged 91st in scoring, an average of 4.3 per team. His teams were pretty strong offensively, and factor in that a defenseman was often in a team's top-4 in scoring and I think the case could be made that in the grand scheme of things he was a top-60 forward.... a low-end 1st liner.

Not that this weakens your point at all, as we are comparing him to very high-end 1st liners here.

You also seem to forget that Loob played in Canada Cup versus the best and scored 10 points in 8 games but I guess that's an average 2nd liners result?

That was great, but it's just 8 games. The entirety of his NHL career is much more meaningful in the evaluation of him as a player.

You are now completely ignoring the level of competition as you constantly point out to me that I'm doing. You can't compare the the finishing palces in a scoring race at that fundamental way you are doing it. Loob played in a much smaller league which increases the quality of each team.

I think this argument is the opposite of true. But can you please explain why this makes it harder to place higher in scoring?


------------------

I guess I'll try to put a list together since I've been weighing in on all this. I'll do a top-40, and my list is not based on historical significance, but the players' potential all-time worldwide greatness (i.e. if you're the best in sweden in the 1960s, what would you have been in the NHL at that time?) I tried to base this on the order I would select them in the ATD, and results matter to me more than talent)

Lidstrom (obvious)
Forsberg (he showed enough to prove he's the best Swede forward)
Salming (this one is obvious, too)
Alfredsson (edge over Sundin thanks to defensive play, but it's close)
Sundin (remarkable offensive longevity, lone gun on his team)

Zetterberg (has been a top-5 forward post lockout, playoffs and defense considered)
D.Sedin (elite offensive star)
H.Sedin (elite offensive star)
Markus Naslund (I respect his elite three seasons)
U.Samuelsson (top-2 defenseman for a long time, feared and hated)

Steen (excellent two-way center)
Mats Naslund (this is as high I can put him)
Loob (ditto)
Lundqvist (three-time Vezina finalist, legit ATD backup now)
B. Gustafsson (put up a lot of points, great defensively, good internationally)

Calle Johansson (top-2 defenseman seemingly forever)
Ohlund (ditto)
Kent Nilsson (great talent, results don't match)
Kenny Jonsson (slightly poor man's Johansson)
Lindbergh (great peak, little else)

Sandstrom (agitator and 800-point scorer)
Persson (one of the best PP defensemen of the 80s)
Tomas Jonsson (very similar to Persson)
Lindmark (underrated international resume)
Ulf Nilsson (decent, semi-star at the NHL level)

Hedberg (ditto)
Svedberg (probably would have been a "good" NHL defenseman)
Pahlsson (elite defensively, had a playoff for the ages)
Holmstrom (niche skill, decent offensively, can't ignore contributions to winning)
Erixon (elite defensively, check the Selke voting!)

Holmqvist (forgotten international star with very solid resume)
Norstrom (his team's best defensive D-man his whole career)
Gradin (good, not great, offensive player)
K. Samuelsson (excellent penalty killer, #3-4 career guy)
Tumba Johansson (could have been a decent NHL player for a while)

P. Sundstrom (underrated two-way C/LW)
Olausson (total offensive specialist but he was good on the PP)
Sterner (likely could have been an NHL secondary scorer)
Stoltz (good enough international resume at the time to get consideration)
Kronwall (top-3 defenseman on a powerhouse post-lockout)

Eldebrink (golden hockey stick voting results in the 80s are strung)
Nicklas Backstrom (short career but an elite point producer who backchecks)
Dahlen (hardworking guy every team needs to win, put up some points too)
Kallur (top penalty killer and SH scorer for a dynasty)
Jorgen Pettersson (good producer, decent defensively and physically)

Bjorn (apparently close to as good as Stoltz)
Axelsson (good NHL-level defensive forward, little else)
N. Sundstrom (not as good defensively as PJ, but much better with the puck)
Modin (good size and shot, can score, decent defensively)
Johnsson (has been a top-2 defenseman post-lockout, little team success though)

Can't believe I ran out of room for good players like Arvedson, Nylander, Ragnarsson, Renberg, Eklund and Lindstrom.

 

[21]

seventieslord

Truly impressive knowledge about Swedish icehockey players!

You are native Canadian?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Others

Lars Erik Sjoberg and Thommie Bergman merit some also ran consideration.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

to whom it may concern,

there are things that our guts tell us are true. they may well be true and may even be provable. but doing the internet message board version of screaming angrily and saying things that even you know aren't true isn't going to do that.

at the same time, there are things that seem to go so strongly against what our guts tell us is what will or should happen that they don't even seem real. rest assured, these things are real. in time, you will accept this.

 

[jkrx]

I think this argument is the opposite of true. But can you please explain why this makes it harder to place higher in scoring?

I actually worded that wrong. Loob had more quality competition. However we wont get proof of this until 5 or more years after the Sedins are done.

It should also be noted that Loob left the NHL when going into his prime it wasn't like MS says, that he was in the middle of his prime when he entered the league.

Sedins wasn't up against any player in his prime except Ovechkin (he missed 10 games when Sedin got the hart). Loob was up against players like Gretzky, Lemieux (not prime), Savard, Hawerchuk, Messier, Goulet and Kurri.

What's weird about this debate is that I think the Sedins are great and I come off like a bitter old man slagging them off.

 

[seventieslord]

seventieslord

Truly impressive knowledge about Swedish icehockey players!

You are native Canadian?

Yep, native Canadian here. I'm not an expert but I've participated in enough all-time drafts and seen other people's research (and done my own), to get a pretty good idea of where the players fit in the all-time pecking order.

Lars Erik Sjoberg and Thommie Bergman merit some also ran consideration.

I totally overlooked Sjoberg. I would put him in the Persson/Jonsson class.

Bergman, I admit I know nothing about. He hasn't jumped out at me in my research (or the research of anyone else who participated in last year's ATD/MLD/AAA/AA/A/B drafts that went 1800 players deep)

I actually worded that wrong. Loob had more quality competition. However we wont get proof of this until 5 or more years after the Sedins are done.

It should also be noted that Loob left the NHL when going into his prime it wasn't like MS says, that he was in the middle of his prime when he entered the league.

Sedins wasn't up against any player in his prime except Ovechkin (he missed 10 games when Sedin got the hart). Loob was up against players like Gretzky, Lemieux (not prime), Savard, Hawerchuk, Messier, Goulet and Kurri.

What's weird about this debate is that I think the Sedins are great and I come off like a bitter old man slagging them off.

It's fine to argue that there was tougher competition for high scoring spots in the 1980s... Considering many great europeans were overseas, I disagree but I concede it is arguable.

However, there is no way that differences in competition can account for one player being an average of 66th in scoring for 6 years, actually being better than one who averaged 18th pver their best six years. Just how much worse do you think top-level scorers have gotten in 25 years?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Thommie Bergmann

Thommie Bergmann:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/bergmth01.html

Knee injuries derailed his career but was a very solid player.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It's kind of a dick move to criticize lists without doing my own, but Lundqvist is being underrated a bit I think. The man has been a star for 6 seasons now; that has to rank him over Steen and Samuelsson

 

[jkrx]

It's kind of a dick move to criticize lists without doing my own, but Lundqvist is being underrated a bit I think. The man has been a star for 6 seasons now; that has to rank him over Steen and Samuelsson

I know I underrated him but as I said my list was impulsive, I even forgot about J. Jönsson.

 

[bottomofthefoodchain]

Kenny > Jörgen x10

 

[jkrx]

I totally overlooked Sjoberg. I would put him in the Persson/Jonsson class.

Bergman, I admit I know nothing about. He hasn't jumped out at me in my research (or the research of anyone else who participated in last year's ATD/MLD/AAA/AA/A/B drafts that went 1800 players deep)

Hes underrated but I doubt he would fit on anyones top30 list.

It's fine to argue that there was tougher competition for high scoring spots in the 1980s... Considering many great europeans were overseas, I disagree but I concede it is arguable.

However, there is no way that differences in competition can account for one player being an average of 66th in scoring for 6 years, actually being better than one who averaged 18th pver their best six years. Just how much worse do you think top-level scorers have gotten in 25 years?

To be honest, Loob top 6 years wasn't in the NHL thats why it's extremely hard to compare. If we compare first 6 seasons (like we should), as Swedes are often eased into the NHL, (Loob wasnt given important minutes either during his transition seasons) we would get a much more fair result. Loob was 32nd in NHL and the Sedins 69th and 70th in raw numbers and in PPG (with players playing more than 200 games) they fall to 162 and 163 (Loob falls to 57th).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It very well is possible that Loob's extremely low numbers in his first 4 years (extremely low compared to his reputation) is because he was eased into the NHL.

What do his estimated ice time figures say?

 

[Lexus]

Based upon NHL careers:

1) Lidstrom
2) Sundin
3) Forsberg
4) Alfredsson
5) Salming
6) Naslund
7) Steen
8) Lundqvist
9) Zetterberg
10) D. Sedin
11) H.Sedin
12) Nilsson
13) Dahlen
14) Samuelsson
15) Gradin
16) Mats Naslund
17) Johansson
18) Olausson
19) Sundstrom
20) Holmstrom

What? Sundin over Forsberg

Lidstrom and Forsberg is well above anyone else on that list.

 

[Hardyvan123]

My list :

1) Nicklas Lidstrom
2) Peter Forsberg
3) Borje Salming
4) Mats Sundin
5) Daniel Alfredsson
6) Henrik Sedin
7) Daniel Sedin
8) Henrik Lundqvist
9) Henrik Zetterberg
10) Markus Naslund
11) Ulf Samuelsson - criminally under-rated player
12) Hakan Loob - 1 NHL season over 70 adjusted points, don't really care that he dominated an AHL-calibre league for 5 years
13) Pelle Lindbergh
14) Mats Naslund
15) Kent Nilsson - sublime talent, limited results
16) Kenny Jonsson - great player wasted on a crap NYI team, then left NHL early.
17) Thomas Steen
18) Calle Johansson
19) Thomas Gradin
20) Stefan Persson

Hedberg would be 21. Past 15 it becomes really interchangeable and there are about 15 'good' players you could slot into the final 5 slots. Gustafsson, Sandstrom, Ulf Nilsson, Ohlund etc.

I know the Swedish posters will hate this list because it's NHL-centric and doesn't include guys like Sven Tumba and Svedberg. But honestly, even though those guys are obviously exceedingly important figures in the history of Swedish hockey, they never played a game against NHL-calibre competition and I find it pretty unlikely they would have been stars in the O6 NHL era. Same as the Soviet players from the 50s/60s.

Vancouver homer overrating edition. I can agree to some extent that Tumba and Svedberg don't belong on the list. Hockey was in it's cradle back then. But that means canadians can't put Howie Morenz on their top 20.

Also, underrating Loob is major fail on your behalf. He could have teared up the NHL for 15 years if he so chose, but he didn't enjoy Canada (I suspect because Canada sucks).

MS list is pretty good, although both Sedins are a little high right now, but I can see the case for them being their with thier Harts (or Daniel being close ).

Anyone listing Loob over Sundin really needs to give their head a shake IMO.

I'm fine with 4th but can make a really good arguement that he should be 2nd behind Lidstrom on this list.

 

[CHGoalie27]

There's a monarch of New York that's climbing the list more every year.

He's easily the most talented goaltender I have ever seen.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Very difficult list, because we have had som many great players! ;-)

Forsberg will always be number one. Even if Lidström win the Norris as a 50 year old, I'm ok with Lidström as second though.

I do miss som guys who have been very important for Swedish icehockey.

The Islanders Swedes:
Stefan Persson (4 cups), Bob Nyström (4 cups, well, born in Sweden anyway...), Anders Kallur (4 cups), Tomas Jonsson (2 cups)

Also great:
Lasse Björn (first swede who really played phsyical? with 9 (!) Swedish championships, 217 games for Sweden, 2 world championsships).

Ulf Nilsson & Anders Hedberg : Winnipeg Jets & New York Rangers were also great successful swedish pioneers in North America.

Ulf Samuelsson, no.
For me Ulf is more known as a dirty cheap shot artist and he wouldn't be on my list. He had all the talent in the world but to much slashing and grabbing for my taste.

Valuable player, hell yes, but not on this kind of list.

I love Forsberg but really how can you have him ahead of Lidstrom.

Better peak sure but Lidstrom has been a top level talent in the top league in the world for an extremely long time.

 

[21]

I love Forsberg but really how can you have him ahead of Lidstrom.

Better peak sure but Lidstrom has been a top level talent in the top league in the world for an extremely long time.

Well, I guess I rate heart, passion, winner instinct, peak skill and capacity higher than consistency.

Forsberg was special and I would rate Lidström as number 2 on the all time list. Sundin number 3.

For without any doubt Sweden's number 1 player of all time.

With both players in it's prime I guess that 90%-95% of all teams in the world would pick Forsberg ahead of Lidstrom?

About Sundin: Sundin could perhaps have been number 1 playing for a better team and not being team captain, amazing player. (I personally think Sundin was way to calm and quiet for being an NHL captain, never understood that). In Sweden, ok, but not in Canada.

 

[21]

Some nice pictures of our legendary Islanders Swedes:

Bob Nyström:

Stefan Persson (right), Kallur left?

Kallur lifting the Cup, Persson to the left:

Tomas Jonsson vs Gretzky:

 

[plusandminus]

I actually worded that wrong. Loob had more quality competition. However we wont get proof of this until 5 or more years after the Sedins are done.

It should also be noted that Loob left the NHL when going into his prime it wasn't like MS says, that he was in the middle of his prime when he entered the league.

Sedins wasn't up against any player in his prime except Ovechkin (he missed 10 games when Sedin got the hart). Loob was up against players like Gretzky, Lemieux (not prime), Savard, Hawerchuk, Messier, Goulet and Kurri.

What's weird about this debate is that I think the Sedins are great and I come off like a bitter old man slagging them off.

You also should consider the amount of russian and czech players in the NHL. The more star players from those countries, the harder competition. Today, we for example have guys like Datsyuk, Ovechkin, Malkin and other star russians. When Loob had his NHL years, I can't think of many russians in NHL. (Larionov, Makarov wasn't there yet.)
So I would say the competition (regarding top players) was actually weaker more likely than stronger.

Even if Gretzky and Mario played then, they are just two players, so excluding them would only have meant Loob would place 2 places higher in the scoring. Guys like Savard, Hawerchuck, Goulet weren't exactly superstars, and not even Messier and Kurri was necessarily better than today's stars like Crosby, Datsyuk, Ovechkin, etc.

I think you overrate Loob a little bit. Don't forget Sedins have WON the Art Ross, and one (or soon both?) of them have WON Hart. Zetterberg has WON Conn Smythe. Forsberg has WON Art Ross and Hart, and had another season where he led the league in points per game. Markus Naslund has WON Pearson. Lidstrom has WON several Norris.
Loob wasn't even close to such achievements.

No other Swede but Loob has scored 50 goals, but several have been close and they have done it in a lower scoring era.
Loob has the scoring record for the Swedish Elite League, but that was his peak season. Zucharello Aasen also dominated in the SEL, and even in the Olympics (I know Yzerman was very impressed by him), but hasn't exactly been an NHL top player. Tomi Kallio have dominated in SEL, but had one of the worst statistics in the NHL.

Of the lists, I think I find Seventieslords the "best" and most interesting. However, if I was to change it, placing Loob 2 or 3 places higher would probably be my first move. So I'm not saying Loob wasn't good.