Top 20 Swedish players of all time

[vadim sharifijanov]

Markus had 3-4 years as a top player in the NHL. Neither Loob nor Mats Naslund had a single year as good as Markus's short stretch of dominance. Again, I'm talking NHL only.

talking single season only, there is the matter of the playoffs where markus is a d i s t a n t third.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

so there is now no reasonable justification for markus naslund over the sedins right?

i could quote you stats or accomplishments, but the biggest contrast for me is the last day of the '03 season vs. the last day of the '10 season.

in '03, the canucks needed a tie to clinch the division over colorado, and naslund was one point ahead of forsberg for the art ross and one goal behind hejduk for the rocket richard. vancouver gets shut out against a kings team that had already been eliminated from the playoffs. meanwhile, forsberg scores three points and hejduk pads his lead with a goal. needless to say the avs also won their game to take the division. after the game, naslund, mic in hand, apologizes to the fans for "choking" (his words, not mine). a month later, they proceed to choke away a 3-1 series lead to minnesota in the second round, failing to take the clearest path to the finals that canucks team would ever get (detroit, colorado, and dallas had all already been eliminated in crazy upsets).

last canucks game of the '10 season. ovechkin and crosby are both gunning for the art ross and are finishing very strong, and each has a game the next day, so henrik really has to put it out of reach so they can't catch him after the fact. he is a point behind ovechkin, four up on crosby. henrik finishes with four assists, including two in the first to build the canucks' lead early, and the canucks blow out the hated flames 7-3-- and calgary needed a tie or shootout loss to clinch the playoffs so it's not like they just conceded the game. daniel helps his brother out with a hat trick, including tsn's goal of the year, and adds an assist.

as a longtime canucks fan, i thought for sure ovechkin would score five points the next day to take the art ross, because that's just what always happens to the canucks (crosby did end up getting five, which obviously wasn't enough). but i would have been happy with henrik's game 82 showing either way. those are the games you tell your kids about.

and now we are in the finals. he might be visibly injured and mostly ineffective outside of game 2 (and terrible in game 4), but it's a best of 3 and henrik helped get us home ice. whatever happens between now and next wednesday, we in vancouver have been blessed these last few years that the sedins are not markus naslund.

 

[jkrx]

Markus had 3-4 years as a top player in the NHL. Neither Loob nor Mats Naslund had a single year as good as Markus's short stretch of dominance. Again, I'm talking NHL only.

While outside of the NHL Markus barely got anything except a euro junior championship gold.

31 games played for sweden, 10 goals and 21 points. Was hardly ever a factor not even in the SEL. During the lockout he managed to put up 1 assist in 6 playoff games and this after holding out (as opposed to the Sedins, Salo and Forsberg) just to get a better salary (He claimed he did it just in case the NHL season was salvaged).

As for your notion that his 3-4 seasons beats Loob and Naslund. Yes, this might be true, although Loobs 88 season was a damn good one. He barely got nothing on them when it came to the playoffs.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Markus had 3-4 years as a top player in the NHL. Neither Loob nor Mats Naslund had a single year as good as Markus's short stretch of dominance. Again, I'm talking NHL only.

I was thinking the same thing myself.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I get the impression Gradin's grit is being overstated a bit here. I have 8 years of scouting reports on him, and they rave about his skating and puckhandling ability, but there are zero mentions of his non-offense skills and the books are not hesitant to lay it on thick when warranted. It does mention once, that he is a gentlemanly player and a Byng finalist. That's the only indication of toughness or lack thereof.

He did have a good playoff record, as the centerpiece of a poor team that had from 59-77 points in his time there, never once over .500. On one hand, it makes his 42 points in 42 games impressive since it always came against better teams. On the other hand, his offensive talents never took a team anywhere, except of course, for 1982.

As for whether the Sedins have passed him... come on. I am not a Sedins fan at all, and even if Gradin had grit to spare (which I am not convinced of), the difference in offensive dominance between the players is so much that the gap can't possibly be bridged.

Gradin's best offensive seasons saw him place 22nd, 33rd, and 36th in league scoring. Henrik Sedin has had three seasons significantly better than that (1st, 4th, 13th) and two others that, once the competition in the post-euro era is considered, were also more impressive than Gradin's best season.

People are going to want to hate on the Sedins right now, and that's fair enough given the way this series is going. But Gradin was, by comparison, a face in the crowd. The Sedins are superstars.

They are superstars in fantasy leagues yes but in reality they are not more than their stats.

Perhaps the case for Gradin was a bit overstated but he was a tough 2 way forward who hit and was more than his stats.

I have no doubt that both Sedins will have better careers (than Gradin) when it's all said and done but both players need to be looked at beyond their stats IMO.

Henrik might be leading the playoffs in scoring but there is no way that an argument can be made that he has been the best overall player or even in the top 3,5 or 10 when the totality of his playoffs is taken into account.

 

[seventieslord]

They are superstars in fantasy leagues yes but in reality they are not more than their stats.

Perhaps the case for Gradin was a bit overstated but he was a tough 2 way forward who hit and was more than his stats.

I have no doubt that both Sedins will have better careers (than Gradin) when it's all said and done but both players need to be looked at beyond their stats IMO.

Henrik might be leading the playoffs in scoring but there is no way that an argument can be made that he has been the best overall player or even in the top 3,5 or 10 when the totality of his playoffs is taken into account.

Hey, like I said, I'm not a fan, and I don't think they have a great compete level, and I think they will both have undeserved Harts in a few weeks, and I was not a fan of Henrik being taken in the 300s in ATD2011. But in today's NHL - they are superstars. they are, by any objective measure, two of the top-8 offensive players in the NHL. At worst. That makes them superstars.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Hey, like I said, I'm not a fan, and I don't think they have a great compete level, and I think they will both have undeserved Harts in a few weeks, and I was not a fan of Henrik being taken in the 300s in ATD2011. But in today's NHL - they are superstars. they are, by any objective measure, two of the top-8 offensive players in the NHL. At worst. That makes them superstars.

I'd agree that they are 2 of the top 8 offensive players in the last 2 maybe even 3 years. The superstar part we can agree to disagree I like my players complete but I see your point and the criteria.

 

[steve141]

Svedberg is definitly a top-20 swede. Stoltz is up there too. Jörgen Jönsson was the heart and soul for swedish hockey.


Dont take this list too serious as I'm just doing it from memory and no immidiate research is behind it.

1. Lidström
2. Salming
3. Forsberg
4. Loob
5. Sundin
6. Svedberg
7. Tumba
8. Mats Näslund
9. Kent Nilsson
10. Holmqvist
11. Markus Näslund
12. Alfredsson
13. Sedins
14. Pekka Lindmark
15. Henrik Zetterberg
16. Sterner
17. Stefan Persson
18. Henrik Lundqvist
19. Lindbergh
20. Ulf Samuelsson
21. Gustafsson
22. Steen
23. Stoltz
24. Eldebrink
25. Rundqvist
26. Gradin
27. Lasse Björn
28. Willy Lindström
29. Tomas Sandström
30. Calle Johansson

This is a very good list. I'd probably put Sundin over Loob based on his international career. I'd also have to look hard at Kenny Jonsson vs Calle Johansson.

I'd be happy to hear your reasoning with regards to Holmqvist over Lindmark over Lundqvist over Lindbergh. I find the goalies the hardest to compare because of the difference in circumstances in which they played.

 

[jkrx]

This is a very good list. I'd probably put Sundin over Loob based on his international career. I'd also have to look hard at Kenny Jonsson vs Calle Johansson.

I'd be happy to hear your reasoning with regards to Holmqvist over Lindmark over Lundqvist over Lindbergh. I find the goalies the hardest to compare because of the difference in circumstances in which they played.

Sundin vs. Loob and Jönsson vs. Calle Johansson is extremely marginal battles.

I rank Holmqvist the highest because his career was outstanding. He was the pioneer of swedish goalies and a big reason the national team could win games. Outstanding goaltender with enormous perserverence and agility. Clutch like no one else and has played a full career. I still regret not taking him in the ATD. Big mistake on my part. Holmqvist was a Giacomin tier of player.

"Pekka" was heart, soul, talent and a warrior. Nothing but winning mattered for him. I ranked him above Lundquist mainly because the latter havent played a full career yet and in my mind he havent passed Pekka yet. It's extremely close though and I have no doubt that Lundquist will come out as the better goalie.

Lindberghs career was cut short. He would've been the absolute best goalie from Sweden if it wasn't for the accident.

 

[MS]

My list :

1) Nicklas Lidstrom
2) Peter Forsberg
3) Borje Salming
4) Mats Sundin
5) Daniel Alfredsson
6) Henrik Sedin
7) Daniel Sedin
8) Henrik Lundqvist
9) Henrik Zetterberg
10) Markus Naslund
11) Ulf Samuelsson - criminally under-rated player
12) Hakan Loob - 1 NHL season over 70 adjusted points, don't really care that he dominated an AHL-calibre league for 5 years
13) Pelle Lindbergh
14) Mats Naslund
15) Kent Nilsson - sublime talent, limited results
16) Kenny Jonsson - great player wasted on a crap NYI team, then left NHL early.
17) Thomas Steen
18) Calle Johansson
19) Thomas Gradin
20) Stefan Persson

Hedberg would be 21. Past 15 it becomes really interchangeable and there are about 15 'good' players you could slot into the final 5 slots. Gustafsson, Sandstrom, Ulf Nilsson, Ohlund etc.

I know the Swedish posters will hate this list because it's NHL-centric and doesn't include guys like Sven Tumba and Svedberg. But honestly, even though those guys are obviously exceedingly important figures in the history of Swedish hockey, they never played a game against NHL-calibre competition and I find it pretty unlikely they would have been stars in the O6 NHL era. Same as the Soviet players from the 50s/60s.

 

[His Beardliness*]

My list :

1) Nicklas Lidstrom
2) Peter Forsberg
3) Borje Salming
4) Mats Sundin
5) Daniel Alfredsson
6) Henrik Sedin
7) Daniel Sedin
8) Henrik Lundqvist
9) Henrik Zetterberg
10) Markus Naslund
11) Ulf Samuelsson - criminally under-rated player
12) Hakan Loob - 1 NHL season over 70 adjusted points, don't really care that he dominated an AHL-calibre league for 5 years
13) Pelle Lindbergh
14) Mats Naslund
15) Kent Nilsson - sublime talent, limited results
16) Kenny Jonsson - great player wasted on a crap NYI team, then left NHL early.
17) Thomas Steen
18) Calle Johansson
19) Thomas Gradin
20) Stefan Persson

Hedberg would be 21. Past 15 it becomes really interchangeable and there are about 15 'good' players you could slot into the final 5 slots. Gustafsson, Sandstrom, Ulf Nilsson, Ohlund etc.

I know the Swedish posters will hate this list because it's NHL-centric and doesn't include guys like Sven Tumba and Svedberg. But honestly, even though those guys are obviously exceedingly important figures in the history of Swedish hockey, they never played a game against NHL-calibre competition and I find it pretty unlikely they would have been stars in the O6 NHL era. Same as the Soviet players from the 50s/60s.

Vancouver homer overrating edition. I can agree to some extent that Tumba and Svedberg don't belong on the list. Hockey was in it's cradle back then. But that means canadians can't put Howie Morenz on their top 20.

Also, underrating Loob is major fail on your behalf. He could have teared up the NHL for 15 years if he so chose, but he didn't enjoy Canada (I suspect because Canada sucks).

 

[Canadiens1958]

Sven Tumba / Ulf Sterner

My list :

1) Nicklas Lidstrom
2) Peter Forsberg
3) Borje Salming
4) Mats Sundin
5) Daniel Alfredsson
6) Henrik Sedin
7) Daniel Sedin
8) Henrik Lundqvist
9) Henrik Zetterberg
10) Markus Naslund
11) Ulf Samuelsson - criminally under-rated player
12) Hakan Loob - 1 NHL season over 70 adjusted points, don't really care that he dominated an AHL-calibre league for 5 years
13) Pelle Lindbergh
14) Mats Naslund
15) Kent Nilsson - sublime talent, limited results
16) Kenny Jonsson - great player wasted on a crap NYI team, then left NHL early.
17) Thomas Steen
18) Calle Johansson
19) Thomas Gradin
20) Stefan Persson

Hedberg would be 21. Past 15 it becomes really interchangeable and there are about 15 'good' players you could slot into the final 5 slots. Gustafsson, Sandstrom, Ulf Nilsson, Ohlund etc.

I know the Swedish posters will hate this list because it's NHL-centric and doesn't include guys like Sven Tumba and Svedberg. But honestly, even though those guys are obviously exceedingly important figures in the history of Swedish hockey, they never played a game against NHL-calibre competition and I find it pretty unlikely they would have been stars in the O6 NHL era. Same as the Soviet players from the 50s/60s.

Sven Tumba had a five game try-out with the 1957-58 Quebec Aces of the QHL:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0003861958.html

The results were interesting but there was debate as to whether at his age they indicated NHL potential or QHL niche level talent.

Ulf Sterner played in the Rangers farm system - CHL/AHL during the mid 1960's. O6 era, with a brief NHL trial:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=10625

Sterner was younger and showed reasonably well in the minors. The Rangers from that era were a team in flux, lacking cohesion that did not always use their assets to advantage - Dick Duff's brief stay being a prime example.

Ulf Sterner too often is the forgotten Swede.

 

[jkrx]

My list :

1) Nicklas Lidstrom
2) Peter Forsberg
3) Borje Salming
4) Mats Sundin
5) Daniel Alfredsson
6) Henrik Sedin
7) Daniel Sedin
8) Henrik Lundqvist
9) Henrik Zetterberg
10) Markus Naslund
11) Ulf Samuelsson - criminally under-rated player
12) Hakan Loob - 1 NHL season over 70 adjusted points, don't really care that he dominated an AHL-calibre league for 5 years
13) Pelle Lindbergh
14) Mats Naslund
15) Kent Nilsson - sublime talent, limited results
16) Kenny Jonsson - great player wasted on a crap NYI team, then left NHL early.
17) Thomas Steen
18) Calle Johansson
19) Thomas Gradin
20) Stefan Persson

Hedberg would be 21. Past 15 it becomes really interchangeable and there are about 15 'good' players you could slot into the final 5 slots. Gustafsson, Sandstrom, Ulf Nilsson, Ohlund etc.

I know the Swedish posters will hate this list because it's NHL-centric and doesn't include guys like Sven Tumba and Svedberg. But honestly, even though those guys are obviously exceedingly important figures in the history of Swedish hockey, they never played a game against NHL-calibre competition and I find it pretty unlikely they would have been stars in the O6 NHL era. Same as the Soviet players from the 50s/60s.

You say Loob is overrated yet you put Lindbergh as the second best goalie from Sweden. Your attitude also makes me wonder why you are posting in the history section. This is a list for the NHL board where you could agree with others that Alfredsson is the fifth best player and how you are underrating Öhlund (who they think should be in the top-15).

 

[MS]

Vancouver homer overrating edition. I can agree to some extent that Tumba and Svedberg don't belong on the list. Hockey was in it's cradle back then. But that means canadians can't put Howie Morenz on their top 20.

Also, underrating Loob is major fail on your behalf. He could have teared up the NHL for 15 years if he so chose, but he didn't enjoy Canada (I suspect because Canada sucks).

Difference between Morenz and Sven Tumba is that Morenz was the best player in the best league in the world. Sven Tumba was the best player in a developing league that was nowhere near the best in the world.

I don't see what's controversial about having Ohlund on the next tier of Swedish defenders just below Jonsson/Johansson/Persson. That's exactly where he should be - was a top-pairing NHL defender for over a decade.

The Sedins have the highest peak of any Swedish forwards ever save for Forsberg. They've each won an NHL scoring title and might both have Hart trophies in a few weeks. Putting guys like Naslund(s) and Loob ahead of them is a joke.

Best 3 seasons for Henrik Sedin, adjusted points :

119
111
84

Hakan Loob?

89
70
57

You say Loob is overrated yet you put Lindbergh as the second best goalie from Sweden. Your attitude also makes me wonder why you are posting in the history section. This is a list for the NHL board where you could agree with others that Alfredsson is the fifth best player and how you are underrating Öhlund (who they think should be in the top-15).

Give me a break.

I put Loob and Lindbergh in the same situation - very good players who had 1 great season. Lindbergh is obviously very difficult to rate, but I don't see how having him as the 2nd best Swedish goalie is an issue.

Hakan Loob spent 6 years in the NHL and for 4 of them was an average 2nd line player. He then had a big breakout year (89 adjusted points) and a decent year (70 adjusted points) before going home. And again, I could care less about what he did as the best player in a poor league. If Marian Gaborik decided tomorrow to go play out his career destroying the Slovakian league, I wouldn't rate those years, either.

__________

Quite simply, I don't rate European hockey in the 1950s and 1960s. And I think it's a perfectly legitimate position to have.

In the 50s in particular, it was dominated by a converted soccer player who learned to skate when he was 23. It is a very interesting period, and the players who blazed trails during that era deserve a lot of recognition, but I'm sorry if I don't rate players who dominated in that environment on a level with guys who excelled in the best league in the world against the best players in the world.

If I was listing the most important Swedish players of all time, Sven Tumba would be in the top 5. Best players, no way.

 

[Andy6]

You're almost totally missing the Winnipeg Jets. Ulf Nilsson and Lars-Erik Sjoberg don't get mentioned once? And Anders Hedberg way down behind a bunch of NHL journeymen? There's no way that in the context of the 1970s Borje Salming is near the top and these other guys, who were at least as good, don't even rate a mention. Kent Nilsson played with the Jets too, and even though he stood there (when he felt like it) slapping in goals (which is certainly useful) he didn't have anywhere near the flair or speed of Anders Hedberg. Likewise Thomas Steen was a wonderful player too but not in the class of Anders.

Anyway, it's a great group of players but I think you're really underrating Hedberg, (Ulf) Nilsson and the great defenceman Lars-Erik Sjoberg.

 

[The Wumpus]

Regardless of the order, there's some damn good hockey on that list. Thank you, Sweden.

 

[MS]

You're almost totally missing the Winnipeg Jets. Ulf Nilsson and Lars-Erik Sjoberg don't get mentioned once? And Anders Hedberg way down behind a bunch of NHL journeymen? There's no way that in the context of the 1970s Borje Salming is near the top and these other guys, who were at least as good, don't even rate a mention. Kent Nilsson played with the Jets too, and even though he stood there (when he felt like it) slapping in goals (which is certainly useful) he didn't have anywhere near the flair or speed of Anders Hedberg. Likewise Thomas Steen was a wonderful player too but not in the class of Anders.

Anyway, it's a great group of players but I think you're really underrating Hedberg, (Ulf) Nilsson and the great defenceman Lars-Erik Sjoberg.

Most of those guys are guys who I'd have in the interchangeable 16-25 range.

Hedberg had a long stint in the NHL starting at age 26 and was solid but not spectacular. Gradin and Hedberg's NHL careers overlap almost perfectly and Gradin was better through almost that entire stretch.

Steen might have had less talent than Hedberg or Ulf Nilsson but did more with it and was an outstanding two-way center.

... but I don't disagree, you could switch around the names at the bottom end and make a good argument for it a lot of different ways.

 

[jkrx]

Difference between Morenz and Sven Tumba is that Morenz was the best player in the best league in the world. Sven Tumba was the best player in a developing league that was nowhere near the best in the world.

I don't see what's controversial about having Ohlund on the next tier of Swedish defenders just below Jonsson/Johansson/Persson. That's exactly where he should be - was a top-pairing NHL defender for over a decade.

The Sedins have the highest peak of any Swedish forwards ever save for Forsberg. They've each won an NHL scoring title and might both have Hart trophies in a few weeks. Putting guys like Naslund(s) and Loob ahead of them is a joke.

Best 3 seasons for Henrik Sedin, adjusted points :

119
111
84

Hakan Loob?

89
70
57



Give me a break.

I put Loob and Lindbergh in the same situation - very good players who had 1 great season. Lindbergh is obviously very difficult to rate, but I don't see how having him as the 2nd best Swedish goalie is an issue.

Hakan Loob spent 6 years in the NHL and for 4 of them was an average 2nd line player. He then had a big breakout year (89 adjusted points) and a decent year (70 adjusted points) before going home. And again, I could care less about what he did as the best player in a poor league. If Marian Gaborik decided tomorrow to go play out his career destroying the Slovakian league, I wouldn't rate those years, either.

__________

Quite simply, I don't rate European hockey in the 1950s and 1960s. And I think it's a perfectly legitimate position to have.

In the 50s in particular, it was dominated by a converted soccer player who learned to skate when he was 23. It is a very interesting period, and the players who blazed trails during that era deserve a lot of recognition, but I'm sorry if I don't rate players who dominated in that environment on a level with guys who excelled in the best league in the world against the best players in the world.

If I was listing the most important Swedish players of all time, Sven Tumba would be in the top 5. Best players, no way.

Adjusted stats? You are basing your arguement on a flawed measurement. An average 2nd liner do not get a top 10 fininsh in both scoring and goals. That average second liner was also always amongst the top-5 scorer on his team with the only exception being the '87 season.

The latter part is just white noise to me as you are ignoring factors like these players played well against canadian competition as well and during the O6 era those canadian teams were quite good or are you saying that only the very limited amount of players, playing in the NHL during this time frame were good?

 

[MS]

Adjusted stats? You are basing your arguement on a flawed measurement. An average 2nd liner do not get a top 10 fininsh in both scoring and goals. That average second liner was also always amongst the top-5 scorer on his team with the only exception being the '87 season.

Adjusted stats are *by far* the best tool for comparing players from 1970-present. That and placings in overall league scoring.

This is what Loob's career looks like:

1983-84 43 adjusted points - 103rd in NHL scoring
1984-85 57 adjusted points - 46th in NHL scoring
1985-86 52 adjusted points - 71st in NHL scoring
1986-87 37 adjusted points - 144th in NHL scoring
1987-88 89 adjusted points - 9th in NHL scoring
1988-89 70 adjusted points - 25th in NHL scoring

Like I said, his first 4 seasons, he was an average 2nd line player. Then he had one near-elite season and one other season where he was a solid first-line player. And he was age 23-29, dead in the prime years of his career, so we got a pretty good view of him as a player.

For comparison, here is Henrik's Sedin's 6-year run since the lockout at a comparable age :

2005-06 73 adjusted points - 39th in NHL scoring
2006-07 81 adjusted points - 25th in NHL scoring
2007-08 82 adjusted points - 24th in NHL scoring
2008-09 84 adjusted points - 13th in NHL scoring
2009-10 119 adjusted points - 1st in NHL scoring
2010-11 101 adjusted points - 4th in NHL scoring

You honestly think that Loob is the 4th-best Swede and the Sedins are 13th?

The gap between those players is absolutely massive. There is no way in hell that Hakan Loob should be ahead of either Sedin (or Sundin or Alfredsson or Zetterberg for that matter) when compiling a list of Swedish players.

Loob is over-rated by Swedish hockey fans because he's one of the few excellent players in the modern era who played in the SEL while in the prime of their career. And of course he looked excellent, better than guys who only played in the SEL at age 20 and again at age 35.

The latter part is just white noise to me as you are ignoring factors like these players played well against canadian competition as well and during the O6 era those canadian teams were quite good or are you saying that only the very limited amount of players, playing in the NHL during this time frame were good?

The Canadian competition was senior amateur teams. Which were good, but were two steps below the NHL. There was the odd ex-NHLer on those teams and some guys that had played minor pro, but generally nowhere near NHL competition.

I don't view excelling against those players as really being much of a feat.

 

[21]

Very difficult list, because we have had som many great players! ;-)

Forsberg will always be number one. Even if Lidström win the Norris as a 50 year old, I'm ok with Lidström as second though.

I do miss som guys who have been very important for Swedish icehockey.

The Islanders Swedes:
Stefan Persson (4 cups), Bob Nyström (4 cups, well, born in Sweden anyway...), Anders Kallur (4 cups), Tomas Jonsson (2 cups)

Also great:
Lasse Björn (first swede who really played phsyical? with 9 (!) Swedish championships, 217 games for Sweden, 2 world championsships).

Ulf Nilsson & Anders Hedberg : Winnipeg Jets & New York Rangers were also great successful swedish pioneers in North America.

Ulf Samuelsson, no.
For me Ulf is more known as a dirty cheap shot artist and he wouldn't be on my list. He had all the talent in the world but to much slashing and grabbing for my taste.

Valuable player, hell yes, but not on this kind of list.

 

[jkrx]

Adjusted stats are *by far* the best tool for comparing players from 1970-present. That and placings in overall league scoring.

This is what Loob's career looks like:

1983-84 43 adjusted points - 103rd in NHL scoring
1984-85 57 adjusted points - 46th in NHL scoring
1985-86 52 adjusted points - 71st in NHL scoring
1986-87 37 adjusted points - 144th in NHL scoring
1987-88 89 adjusted points - 9th in NHL scoring
1988-89 70 adjusted points - 25th in NHL scoring

Like I said, his first 4 seasons, he was an average 2nd line player. Then he had one near-elite season and one other season where he was a solid first-line player. And he was age 23-29, dead in the prime years of his career, so we got a pretty good view of him as a player.

For comparison, here is Henrik's Sedin's 6-year run since the lockout at a comparable age :

2005-06 73 adjusted points - 39th in NHL scoring
2006-07 81 adjusted points - 25th in NHL scoring
2007-08 82 adjusted points - 24th in NHL scoring
2008-09 84 adjusted points - 13th in NHL scoring
2009-10 119 adjusted points - 1st in NHL scoring
2010-11 101 adjusted points - 4th in NHL scoring

You honestly think that Loob is the 4th-best Swede and the Sedins are 13th?

The gap between those players is absolutely massive. There is no way in hell that Hakan Loob should be ahead of either Sedin (or Sundin or Alfredsson or Zetterberg for that matter) when compiling a list of Swedish players.

Loob is over-rated by Swedish hockey fans because he's one of the few excellent players in the modern era who played in the SEL while in the prime of their career. And of course he looked excellent, better than guys who only played in the SEL at age 20 and again at age 35.




The Canadian competition was senior amateur teams. Which were good, but were two steps below the NHL. There was the odd ex-NHLer on those teams and some guys that had played minor pro, but generally nowhere near NHL competition.

I don't view excelling against those players as really being much of a feat.

No adjusted points is by far the overrated tool to use. Let me ask this, have you ever seen Loob play? No, one game on video or live doesnt count but for an extended period of time. The fact is that Loob has won everything there is to win while being a key player on his team which can't be said for the Sedins for example.

Even if you count SEL as a bush league (which it wasn't, you just don't know enough about it) you can't discard what Loob did because he is the only one who did it. You are like the people who discard offensive prowness in the 80s because the numbers were inflated but can't explain the fact that no one else didnt manage to do what the elite players did.

You also seem to forget that Loob played in Canada Cup versus the best and scored 10 points in 8 games but I guess that's an average 2nd liners result?

By the way, you skipped Sedins season as a 23 year old on purpose didnt you? You shouldn't manipulate the numbers to gain credibillity here.

The Canadian competition was senior amateur teams. Which were good, but were two steps below the NHL. There was the odd ex-NHLer on those teams and some guys that had played minor pro, but generally nowhere near NHL competition.

I don't view excelling against those players as really being much of a feat.

Thats because you havent watched them play. I guess ignorance is bliss.

 

[Andy6]

Most of those guys are guys who I'd have in the interchangeable 16-25 range.

Hedberg had a long stint in the NHL starting at age 26 and was solid but not spectacular. Gradin and Hedberg's NHL careers overlap almost perfectly and Gradin was better through almost that entire stretch.

Steen might have had less talent than Hedberg or Ulf Nilsson but did more with it and was an outstanding two-way center.

From a Winnipeg perspective, comparing Steen's level of talent with Anders or Ulf is just hilarious. He was definitely an outstanding two-way centre but couldn't compare with them in overall talent. Their NHL years were just an afterthought ... the Rangers didn't play their style of hockey and there were injuries. Ulf and Anders with Bobby Hull were one of the most spectacular lines in hockey history. I guess if you're just looking at NHL stats on a website you could understandably be misled. That's how this generational stuff works.

 

[MS]

No adjusted points is by far the overrated tool to use. Let me ask this, have you ever seen Loob play? No, one game on video or live doesnt count but for an extended period of time.

I was never a home-team fan of Loob who saw him play every night, but I've seen enough of him to know how good he was and what sort of player he was.

Adjusted stats are a great tool for comparison, and when you look at the complete domination of the Sedins vs. Loob in adjusted stats and in league scoring placings, the notion that Loob is a better player than the Sedins is an absolute farce.

The fact is that Loob has won everything there is to win while being a key player on his team which can't be said for the Sedins for example.

Uh, until later today?

Sedins have won an Olympic Gold (in a best-on-best tourney as opposed to the weak pre-1998 format), a SEL title, and potentially a Stanley Cup.

Even if you count SEL as a bush league (which it wasn't, you just don't know enough about it) you can't discard what Loob did because he is the only one who did it. You are like the people who discard offensive prowness in the 80s because the numbers were inflated but can't explain the fact that no one else didnt manage to do what the elite players did.

SEL was and is an AHL calibre league. Any first-line player in the prime of his career would have looked ridiculously good against that level of competition.

Offense in the 1980s was inflated because position players were improving at a more rapid rate than goaltenders and coaching tactics. When coaching evolved and butterfly goaltending (plus larger equipment) came into the equation, it levelled out and returned to historic levels. Anyone trying to claim that an 80-point season from 1985 where the player was 30th in NHL scoring = an 80-point season from 2003 when the player was 3rd is just out-to-lunch.

You also seem to forget that Loob played in Canada Cup versus the best and scored 10 points in 8 games but I guess that's an average 2nd liners result?

Excellent performance and a fine feather in his cap. Unfortunately that was the only best-on-best tournament he played in.

Unfortunately one good international tournament and one top-20 NHL scoring finish doesn't match up to a player who has won an Art Ross, a Hart, led the NHL in assists twice, and so on.

And please stop manipulating my words. I said his first 4 seasons were the performance of an average second line player, and they were. I also said his 1987-88 season was near-elite.

Loob was obviously an excellent player. But he had 1 season in his career where he played legitimately outstanding hockey against legitimate quality players. And that season still was nowhere near either of Henrik Sedin's best two seasons.

By the way, you skipped Sedins season as a 23 year old on purpose didnt you? You shouldn't manipulate the numbers to gain credibillity here.

I picked the 2005-11 stretch because it was 6 consecutive seasons, same as Loob's NHL time. Sedin's 23 y/o season was still better than Loob's 23 y/o season.

You can pick any 1 or 2 or 3 or 5 seasons from their careers, it really doesn't matter - Sedin still massacres Loob.

Thats because you havent watched them play. I guess ignorance is bliss.

Oh, come on.

I'm sorry I didn't see the Whitby Dunlops beat Sweden 10-2 in 1958. I'm pretty sure nobody else here did either.

I'm also pretty comfortable claiming that senior amateur teams were nowhere near NHL-calibre, despite your efforts to claim the contrary.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Hull/Nilsson/Hedberg

From a Winnipeg perspective, comparing Steen's level of talent with Anders or Ulf is just hilarious. He was definitely an outstanding two-way centre but couldn't compare with them in overall talent. Their NHL years were just an afterthought ... the Rangers didn't play their style of hockey and there were injuries. Ulf and Anders with Bobby Hull were one of the most spectacular lines in hockey history. I guess if you're just looking at NHL stats on a website you could understandably be misled. That's how this generational stuff works.

Saw Winnipeg play in Quebec(WHA) and the Rangers in the early 1980's.

Hull/Nilsson/Hedberg were impressive in the WHA since the WHA teams lacked team defense. Playing with Hull created open ice for Nilsson and Hedberg.

In the NHL with the Rangers, Nilsson and Hedberg did not play with Hull so they had to create their own open ice playing against teams that had defensive systems in place.1979 after Nilsson was hurt playing with a Ranger team that rode a streak to the finals Hedberg lagged.

 

[MS]

From a Winnipeg perspective, comparing Steen's level of talent with Anders or Ulf is just hilarious. He was definitely an outstanding two-way centre but couldn't compare with them in overall talent. Their NHL years were just an afterthought ... the Rangers didn't play their style of hockey and there were injuries. Ulf and Anders with Bobby Hull were one of the most spectacular lines in hockey history. I guess if you're just looking at NHL stats on a website you could understandably be misled. That's how this generational stuff works.

I agree completely that Nilsson and Hedberg were more talented than Steen. They were wonderful players to watch.

But the notion that their time in New York was an 'afterthought' is ridiculous. They were in their mid-20s, going to one of the biggest hockey teams in the world in the best league in the world, at a time where they were Stanley Cup contenders. They were immediately put on the Rangers' first line and went to the Finals in their rookie NHL seasons. It's not like they were 35 y/o guys just playing out the string for a paycheck.

Defenses in the WHA sucked. It's no coincidence that damned near every WHA scoring star (Hedberg, Nilsson, Lacroix, Napier, Cloutier, Ftorek) saw their production fall by 50% as soon as they went to the NHL, all still as young players. And it certainly wasn't because the NHL was an 'afterthought'.

Hedberg (especially) and Nilsson played in the NHL for prolonged period in the primes of their careers and were very good but certainly not great players. Against quality defenses, they just weren't as effective.

Like I said to the other poster, you can certainly form an argument for putting them ahead of Steen (who is a personal favourite of mine and a criminally under-rated all-around player) but there's no way in my mind they could go higher than 15th or so.