Top 20 Left Wings

[Sadekuuro]

Another who could be considered would be Henrik Zetterberg.

Primarily a center

 

[CanadianPantherFan]

No Kevin Stevens

 

[pnep]

Player|Seasons|NHL "HHOF Monitor" PTS
Bobby "The Golden Jet" Hull |1957-80|4138.00
Ted "Scarface" Lindsay |1944-65|2589.00
Cy "The Cornwall Colt" Denneny |1917-29|2405.00
Frank "Big M" Mahovlich |1956-74|2138.50
Aurel "The Mighty Atom" Joliat |1922-38|1852.50
Dickie "Digging Dicker" Moore |1951-68|1701.00
Hector "Toe" Blake|1934-48|1655.00
Luc "Lucky Luc" Robitaille |1986-06|1646.00
John "Chief" Bucyk |1955-78|1595.00
Harvey "Busher" Jackson |1929-44|1436.50
Doug "Dandy Doug" Bentley |1939-54|1427.50
Alexander "Ovie" Ovechkin |2005-09|~1400.00
Paul "The Sharpshooter" Kariya |1994-09|~1380.00
David "Sweeney" Schriner|1934-46|1337.50
Markus "Nazzy" Naslund |1993-09|~1280.00
Brendan "Shanny" Shanahan |1987-09|~1280.00
Roy Conacher |1938-52|1195.50
Reg "Old Sarge" Noble |1917-33|1192.85
Albert "Babe" Siebert |1925-39|1167.25
Bob "Le Capitaine" Gainey |1973-89|1084.50
Michel "Gou" Goulet |1979-94|1082.50

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

So Ramsay was small. I don't care how they do it, just as long as they get it done. Ramsay scored more, and got scored on less, even though he was in Buffalo with much lesser teammates.

So Gainey and Barber were better because they got it done, aka, won the cup.

 

[TheDaysOf 04]

No one has even mentioned Dave Andreychuk?

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

No one has even mentioned Dave Andreychuk?

Because he isn't even close...

 

[Canadiens1958]

Did What?

Referring to post 1 or post 2? In post 1, based on the aggragate list, he would not look out of place. In post 2, more refined, he would.



If I understand it correctly, those are half and half type players whereas Messier was a LW for just a few years and then a center for nearly 20 more. So I'd be inclined to count Delvecchio, Howe, and Abel, but not Messier. Or none at all. but either way I wouldn't count the moose.



Are you aware that Roy Conacher lost two more years to the war than Watson did? And that he was 26-29 in the years he missed as opposed to Watson, who was 20-21?

Conacher's just a better player. You're right that Olmstead and Watson have him beaten in intangibles, but you've gotta draw the line somewhere. Conacher led the NHL in goals once and was a four-time runner-up.



So Ramsay was small. I don't care how they do it, just as long as they get it done. Ramsay scored more, and got scored on less, even though he was in Buffalo with much lesser teammates.

Did what exactly? The game after all is played so that a team wins the Stanley Cup at the end of the playoffs. It is not played for the sake of compiling individual stats.

Roy Conacher. Nicer stats but a young Red Wing team on the verge of SC contention dumped him for Eddie Slowinski of the Rangers. Conacher did not report and was sold to the lowly Hawks whereas teams on the verge of Stanley Cup contention went out and acquired Harry Watson and Bert Olmstead(twice).

Craig Ramsey. Zero cups. Never added to Canada Cup teams or international teams where size and toughness was not a prime factor. Viktor Tikhanov's comments about the value of Bob Gainey merit consideration in this regard.

Will grant that Craig Ramsey deserves more HHOF consideration than he is getting but even at this level he is not regarded in the same light as a Claude Provost(RW) who would reduce the effectiveness of a Bobby Hull or a Nick Metz who could reduce the effectiveness of leading RWs like Maurice Richard.

 

[vippe]

Ovechkin only played 4 seasons but I'm thinking he's making a strong arguement for himself being top20 of alltime already..

If he lands another Hart this year I would without hesitation put him on the top20.

 

[pappyline]

Roy Conacher. Nicer stats but a young Red Wing team on the verge of SC contention dumped him for Eddie Slowinski of the Rangers. Conacher did not report and was sold to the lowly Hawks whereas teams on the verge of Stanley Cup contention went out and acquired Harry Watson and Bert Olmstead(twice).

The story behind the story. If you pissed Jack Adams off, he got rid of you, no matter how good you were, but he didn't always get a good return (other players dumped include Lindsay, Kelly, Litzenberger).

(From Legends)
Conacher's stay in Detroit was cut short by an argument with GM Jack Adams about his pay for the upcoming season. Conacher was at first traded to the New York Rangers, but he refused to report and announced his retirement. Two weeks later the trade was voided and he was signed instead by the Chicago Black Hawks

 

[Canadiens1958]

Details

The story behind the story. If you pissed Jack Adams off, he got rid of you, no matter how good you were, but he didn't always get a good return (other players dumped include Lindsay, Kelly, Litzenberger).

(From Legends)
Conacher's stay in Detroit was cut short by an argument with GM Jack Adams about his pay for the upcoming season. Conacher was at first traded to the New York Rangers, but he refused to report and announced his retirement. Two weeks later the trade was voided and he was signed instead by the Chicago Black Hawks

Somewhat incomplete portrayal. See the attached link for the details of the Kelly trade that fell thru when Kelly and McNeill refused to report to the Rangers:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/g/gadsbbi01.htm

Effectively Adams would have received Gadsby and Shack for Kelly since McNeill was borderline NHL. Adams then mitigated the situation about one year later by getting Gadsby for Les Hunt.
The Leafs made out real well from the situation by getting both Kelly for Marc Reaume and Shack for John Wilson and Pat Hannigan.

The Ted Lindsay trade happened after the 1956-57 season. Playing with Howe and Ullman, Lindsay had an incredible season after a steady decline the previous two seasons. His point total(85) almost equaled the sum of his points from the previous two seasons(88).
The three remaining years with Chicago saw (39/58/26) point seasons while missing only four games. Granted Lindsay's union activities did not sit well with Adams. The player's received by Detroit were a testimony to the weak Red Wing scouting and player development after Tommy Ivan left Detroit for Chicago taking with him the knowledge of the Detroit farm system.The value of Tommy Ivan is evidenced by the growth of the Hawks and the decline of the Wings in the second half of the fifties/early sixties.

Ed Litzenberger was acquired for Brian Smith(never played in the NHL after Detroit) and Gerry Melnyk who did not last in the O6 NHL and were outperformed by Litzenberger in his short stay in Detroit.
Litzenberger after a short spurt in Toronto was not kept either.

 

[alexthekidd]

Ovechkin only played 4 seasons but I'm thinking he's making a strong arguement for himself being top20 of alltime already..

If he lands another Hart this year I would without hesitation put him on the top20.

+8

 

[Fredrik_71]

Ovechkin only played 4 seasons but I'm thinking he's making a strong arguement for himself being top20 of alltime already..

If he lands another Hart this year I would without hesitation put him on the top20.

Agree. How many left wingers have won a Hart? Pnep?

//Cheers

 

[pappyline]

Somewhat incomplete portrayal. See the attached link for the details of the Kelly trade that fell thru when Kelly and McNeill refused to report to the Rangers:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/g/gadsbbi01.htm

Effectively Adams would have received Gadsby and Shack for Kelly since McNeill was borderline NHL. Adams then mitigated the situation about one year later by getting Gadsby for Les Hunt.
The Leafs made out real well from the situation by getting both Kelly for Marc Reaume and Shack for John Wilson and Pat Hannigan.

The Ted Lindsay trade happened after the 1956-57 season. Playing with Howe and Ullman, Lindsay had an incredible season after a steady decline the previous two seasons. His point total(85) almost equaled the sum of his points from the previous two seasons(88).
The three remaining years with Chicago saw (39/58/26) point seasons while missing only four games. Granted Lindsay's union activities did not sit well with Adams. The player's received by Detroit were a testimony to the weak Red Wing scouting and player development after Tommy Ivan left Detroit for Chicago taking with him the knowledge of the Detroit farm system.The value of Tommy Ivan is evidenced by the growth of the Hawks and the decline of the Wings in the second half of the fifties/early sixties.

Ed Litzenberger was acquired for Brian Smith(never played in the NHL after Detroit) and Gerry Melnyk who did not last in the O6 NHL and were outperformed by Litzenberger in his short stay in Detroit.
Litzenberger after a short spurt in Toronto was not kept either.

I am well aware of the details of all these transactions.

My point was that Conacher was dumped simply because he asked for more money and that Adams has a history of dumping star players and not getting much for them.

Also, I would disagree on giving Adams a break on the weak Detroit scouting after Ivan left. Adams was supposedly a great GM for a long team and saw each team play 14 times a season. He would have been well aware of the talent on the other 5 teams.

 

[lextune]

Agree. How many left wingers have won a Hart? Pnep?

//Cheers

Eight.

But four of those were listed as also playing another position (Center or Defense).

For full time left-wingers only Hull, Ovechkin, Toe Blake and Aurel Joliat have brought it home.

 

[Canadiens1958]

NHL Level

I am well aware of the details of all these transactions.

My point was that Conacher was dumped simply because he asked for more money and that Adams has a history of dumping star players and not getting much for them.

Also, I would disagree on giving Adams a break on the weak Detroit scouting after Ivan left. Adams was supposedly a great GM for a long team and saw each team play 14 times a season. He would have been well aware of the talent on the other 5 teams.

Jack Adams. Your assessment is very true at the NHL level after Tommy Ivan left. Jack Adams was very good at spotting who could play with Howe and Delvecchio - Gary Aldcorn, Parker MacDonald, generating attractive stats so that they could be packaged in trades for other players. Some trades Adams won some he lost.

The Red Wings after Red Kelly and Marcel Pronovost who were home grown after WWII never found or developed a worthwhile defenceman under Adams. Ivan started in Omaha and coached many of the future Red Wing stars of the late forties into the mid 1950's. After the Ivan left the best forward prospects Murray Oliver were underused in Detroit as Adams went for the quick fix getting aging players like Stasiuk, Labine, etc. This approach continued when Sid Abel assumed the GM position - Macgregor,Martin, Henderson were stiffled in Detroit. The results were the same regardless of who was pulling the strings starting in 1962-63.

That Roy Conacher was dumped for asking for more money is true. Do you pay more money to players that are not part of the future? The Howe/Lindsay/Abel had shown that it was the #1 unit going forward,Billy Taylor was fighting his demons, Roy Conacher was an aging, finesse player that given the style favoured by Toronto and Montreal was not worth a premium salary, evidenced by the fact that the Hawks never received worthwhile trade offers from other contenders of the era nor were the Rangers willing to overpay to make the initial deal work

 

[God Bless Canada]

Kevin Stevens: not enough longevity. Three excellent seasons, a couple other good seasons after the Pilon hit. His peak was fantastic; at his best, I'd say he was better than Shanahan, Goulet or Robitaille. He was an absolutely dominant force, the perfect compliment on the left side for the right-hand shooting Lemieux. But the peak is too brief to rate him.

Andreychuk: Zero first or second all-star team births, at a time when LW was at its lowest level. Lots of opportunities for him to grab a second team nod prior to 1991, when the position started to regain its depth. But he never did it.

One name not mentioned yet, and it should have been for consideration, is Steve Shutt. People criticize him for being the garbage man alongside Lafleur. I think it reflects his instincts. He knew where to be, and when he needed to be there. Very good player in the post-season. Led the league in goals once. Like a lot of players from 70s and 80s dynasties, his production really tailed off after he hit 30.

Ovechkin: what holds him back is longevity. He's been in the show four years. Hard to make an evaluation on a guy after his four years. If he was a centre, he still wouldn't be considered for a top 20. But at LW, he deserves consideration. He is the best LW to enter the league since Hull and Mahovlich.

I don't think Abel and Delvecchio played half their careers at LW. I would guess it's far less. And it does beg the question: how do we evaluate them? If we're looking strictly from an all-time player perspective, then they would sandwich Bucyk on my list - Delvecchio ahead of Bucyk and Abel behind Bucyk. If we're talking about what they accomplished at LW, then they probably wouldn't be on my list, and if they were, they'd be behind guys like Robitaille, Goulet and Shanny.

 

[pappyline]

That Roy Conacher was dumped for asking for more money is true. Do you pay more money to players that are not part of the future? The Howe/Lindsay/Abel had shown that it was the #1 unit going forward,Billy Taylor was fighting his demons, Roy Conacher was an aging, finesse player that given the style favoured by Toronto and Montreal was not worth a premium salary, evidenced by the fact that the Hawks never received worthwhile trade offers from other contenders of the era nor were the Rangers willing to overpay to make the initial deal work

You may be right but this is all conjecture. IMO, you are over analyzing this. I think simply asking for a raise was enough to cause Adams to dump Conacher.

 

[seventieslord]

So Gainey and Barber were better because they got it done, aka, won the cup.

What Ramsay did while on the ice was more effective than what Gainey did. Plain and simple, he helped more pucks go into his opposition's net and fewer go into his own, at better rates than Gainey did. What should he have done better to be considered the better player? Go out on the ice when it wasn't his shift to make sure that the team's good furtune continued teh whole 60 minutes?

Am I supposed to consider Gainey better for what happened when he wasn't on the ice? Because the differences between Montreal and Buffalo were Dryden/Edwards... And Lafleur/Robert... And Shutt/Martin... And Robinson/Schoenfeld... And Savard/Hajt... And Lapointe/Korab. Not Gainey/Ramsay.

No one has even mentioned Dave Andreychuk?

The thread is "Top-20 Left Wings"... not Top-40.

 

[canucks4ever]

That's the one advantage that points based systems like pnep's and ogopogo's have - there's no question on when someone has achieved enough to be added.

Anyway, as for Ovechkin - he's about to receive his second Hart trohpy (I'd be really surprised if Malkin gets it; Datsyuk isn't even a question). Is there any player in history who got 2 Harts who isn't in the top 100? I don't think so. Ovechin has pretty clearly already accomplished more than Bure or Lindros - both players in my top 120, but not in my top 100.

No ovechkin clary hasnt accomplished more than them yet, he eventually will but he hasnt done it yet. I dont care if he wins another hart trophy. Malkin woth the art ross and conn smythe, he was the best forward of the 2008/2009 season.

Ovechkin hasnt even accomplished more than Joe Thornton, so how can he be more accomplished than Bure or Lindros. Thornton has placed 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 11th, 16th and 28th in scoring. Ovechkin has been 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 13th. Right now even Thornton has higher accomplishments.

Bure has 3 goal scoring titles, Ovechkin has 2. Bure has twice as many playoff points and did this with a weaker cast. Bure has finished 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 13th, 25th and 28th in scoring. The funny thing is that he missed alot of games during some of those seasons while ovy was always healthy. Bure also competed against Jagr, sakic, Forsberg, LA KINGS Gretzky, Lindros, Selanne and Kariya for his finishes in the scoring race. Ovechkin has good comp in malkin, crosby, iginla and datsyuk, but Bure simply played in a more offensive talented era.

I just find it ridiculous that jagr was a hart trophy finalist 6 times and they only gave it to him once, yet OVY boy gets the hart trophy once again because everybody just loves ovechkin. God this guy is so overrated, he's lucky he didn't spend his career during the Jagr-Sakic era cuz Jagr would have outpointed him every year, he's just better.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

What Ramsay did while on the ice was more effective than what Gainey did. Plain and simple, he helped more pucks go into his opposition's net and fewer go into his own, at better rates than Gainey did. What should he have done better to be considered the better player? Go out on the ice when it wasn't his shift to make sure that the team's good furtune continued teh whole 60 minutes?

Am I supposed to consider Gainey better for what happened when he wasn't on the ice? Because the differences between Montreal and Buffalo were Dryden/Edwards... And Lafleur/Robert... And Shutt/Martin... And Robinson/Schoenfeld... And Savard/Hajt... And Lapointe/Korab. Not Gainey/Ramsay.




The thread is "Top-20 Left Wings"... not Top-40.

Honestly, I'd take Martin over Shutt.

The difference is, that Ramsay could be made ineffectual by physical play. Barber and Gainey were not handicapped. And that exploitable weakness absolutly hurts him.

 

[Hey Hanrahan]

Is the question "best LWs" or "best scoring LWs"?

Anyway, Clark Gillies is wondering which of Propp, Goulet, Shutt, etc., are going to be thrown out of the house to make room for him and his 4 Stanley Cups, HHOF induction and book entitled How I Redefined the Term "Power Forward".

 

[Mark753]

I'd take Robitaille over Shanahan. I know he's not ahead by much, but still. And Andreychuk was great, but not that great. He never scored 100 points in a season and is "only" .82 PPG.

 

[overpass]

Craig Ramsey/Bob Gainey. Ramsey could not match-up against the physical right wingers of the era or the physical teams. Once Gainey joined the Canadiens their performance against the Flyers and other physical teams like the Bruins improved.

My thoughts on Ramsay vs Gainey are not too different from seventieslord, but this strikes me as a plausible point for Gainey. The 1970s were a very unbalanced decade in team strength, with great teams and terrible teams. Was Ramsay padding his superior regular season numbers against weak teams? When the Hockey Summary Project finishes up with the 1970s I'll probably take a look, although there may not be full plus-minus data, which is a big part of Ramsay's case.

Patrick Elias deserves consideration as well. More playoff points than any other NHLer in this decade (source), along with being a solid contributor defensively.

I realize that Elias will never make the HHOF, while Luc Robitaille will probably be inducted next week. But which one would you rather have on your team?

I didn't know Elias led that stat, very interesting. His case looks fairly similar to Propp's - best forward on one of the best teams of the decade, excellent defensive player, lots of playoff scoring.

Bucyk was very good for a long time like Ron Francis. But the only time he ever looked like an elite player was when Bobby Orr was in town - so some question whether he actually was that good.

I think Bucyk's true ability was somewhere in between his 1960s results and his 1970s results, as he went from being on terrible teams to great teams. From my experience looking at power play vs even strength scoring, powerplay scoring is more teammate-dependent than even-strength or shorthanded scoring - it really helps to have good teammates. Bucyk was among the top power play scorers on the Bruins in the 1960s - but their power play was so terrible that was only good for 10-12 points a season. After Orr and Esposito joined the Bruins and they had the best power play in the league, Bucyk led the league in power play points in 1971 with 44 (source: Hockey Summary Project).

 

[mattihp]

Would Esa Tikkanen be a top-50ish LW?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Bucyk was very good for a long time like Ron Francis. But the only time he ever looked like an elite player was when Bobby Orr was in town - so some question whether he actually was that good.

You're right, Bucyk's numbers jump with the convergence of Orr, Esposito & expansion. Though he didn't play on Espo's line, he did play on the power play unit with Orr & Esposito. And he scored 36 goals at age 40 with Ratelle as his center.

But I don't think he was as good a player as Francis.