Top 20 Left Wings

[kmad]

Bobby Hull is clearly the top LW to ever play the game - it's as undisputable as Bobby Orr being the best defenseman.

But how would the rest of the top 20 play out?

Last year's top 100 aggregate list would position them something like this (using the final list first and then the aggregate list):

1. Bobby Hull
2. Ted Lindsay
3. Valeri Kharlamov
4. Frank Mahovlich
5. Dickie Moore
6. Cy Denneny
7. Aurel Joliat
8. Toe Blake
9. Anatoli Firsov
10. Johnny Bucyk
11. Busher Jackson
12. Doug Bentley
13. Sid Abel (C/LW)
14. Alex Delvecchio (C/LW) (end final list)
15. Bob Gainey (start aggregate list)
16. Brendan Shanahan
17. Luc Robitaille
18. Sweeney Schriner
19. Michel Goulet
20. Mats Naslund

Do you feel this accurately represents the historical rankings of left-wing? Ignoring Alexander Ovechkin, since he's active with such astronomical possibility for future achievements, how would you rank the top-20 left wings of all time?

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As a side question - due to the rarity of star LW players, do you feel a first- or second-team all-star berth at the LW position intrinsically be worth less than the same honor for any other position?

Click to read more...

 

[seventieslord]

I pretty much agree with the HOH list that was discussed and debated. After that it gets a bit hairy. Assuming you consider Sid Abel and Alex Delvecchio LWs, I would also consider Syd Howe a LW. So my final six would be:

Syd Howe
Craig Ramsay
Brendan Shanahan
Roy Conacher
Luc Robitaille
Alexander Yakushev

 

[Boxscore]

Wow. No Bill Barber?

 

[overpass]

The first 14 are pretty good - all should be part of the top 20, I won't quibble over placement. The last six rankings, based on the aggregate list, are less reliable, as many people didn't include them in their top 120 list. They are based fairly heavily on the opinions of a few voters.

Sweeney Schriner - basically a five year prime, and a two year peak. Yes, two scoring titles, but the competition wasn't that strong. Only top-five in Hart voting in one season. Is he better than fellow peak candidates Kariya and Markus Naslund?

Bob Gainey - I'd put contemporary Craig Ramsay ahead. Ramsay had far better individual results on worse Buffalo teams playing a similar role to Gainey.

Shanahan and Robitaille, sure. Consistently very good for a long time, although never among the best players.

Michel Goulet and Mats Naslund - Are they the best '80s left wingers here? Glenn Anderson and Brian Propp could also be considered here. I'd drop Naslund for Propp - Propp was a much better defensive player and penalty killer, and also an excellent playoff producer.

Roy Conacher should also be considered. His accomplishments don't look better than Schriner's until you consider that he lost four prime seasons to the war.

As a side question - due to the rarity of star LW players, do you feel a first- or second-team all-star berth at the LW position intrinsically be worth less than the same honor for any other position?

Yes. The best forwards end up at centre more often, the best wingers end up on the right side more often. There's nothing inherently difficult about playing left wing - give a top centre or right winger a little time on the left side and they'll be fine. Since they are a weaker group of players as a whole (historically), achievement compared to that group has to be worth less. They should be compared to other forwards to get a sense of their value.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think Ted Lindsay and Dickie Moore tend to get slightly overrated because of the dominance of the teams they played on in their primes. Johnny Bucyk is also slightly overrated by history due to being very good, rather than great, for a very long time.

I also tend to place more value on the careers of players from the old USSR than most. Other than that, agree with the composite top 100 with a few minor changes.

This is how I would rank them:

1. Bobby Hull
2. Valeri Kharlamov
3. Ted Lindsay
4. Frank Mahovlich
5. Anatoli Firsov
6. Cy Denneny
7. Dickie Moore
8. Aurele Joliat
9. Busher Jackson
10. Doug Bentley
11. Toe Blake
12. Sid Abel
13. Alex Delvecchio
14. Johnny Bucyk
15. Syd Howe
16. Brendan Shanahan
17. Alexander Yakushev
18. Bob Gainey
19. Luc Robitaille
20. Roy Conacher/Craig Ramsey/Goulet/Propp/Anderson? (I'm not going to think hard about which one was better right now)

Edit: If we consider Delvecchio and Abel LWs, do we have to do the same for Messier? I was under the impression the two of them usually played center, but occasionally LW - something that could be said about Messier.

Edit again: Syd Howe (if he counts), Shanahan, Yakushev, and Robitaille should be locks for the last 6. Gainey is a lock for the bottom 6 too if you put a lot of stock into playoff performance, like I do. He was one of the most important players on the last Habs dynasty.

 

[AK]

I think they look pretty good.

Bucyk might be a tad bit low for my liking, though he was before my time so I'm not necessarily qualified to pass judgment there.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think they look pretty good.

Bucyk might be a tad bit low for my liking, though he was before my time so I'm not necessarily qualified to pass judgment there.

Bucyk was very good for a long time like Ron Francis. But the only time he ever looked like an elite player was when Bobby Orr was in town - so some question whether he actually was that good.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Harry Watson and Bert Olmstead

Harry Watson and Bert Olmstead should be considered ahead of Roy Conacher. Watson lost a few seasons to the war, had a longer and better career,played more Stanley Cups winners, more physical and better defensively, leadership qualities.

Bert Olmstead, brought leadership qualities especially to the Leafs, played on more Stanley Cup winners, tougher more physical, better playmaker - held assist record for a number of years.

Craig Ramsey/Bob Gainey. Ramsey could not match-up against the physical right wingers of the era or the physical teams. Once Gainey joined the Canadiens their performance against the Flyers and other physical teams like the Bruins improved.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

no one can find a place for markus naslund near the bottom of this list? his peak (three years of top 5 hart finishes) blow away the shannys, goulets, robatailles, propps, etc.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

no one can find a place for markus naslund near the bottom of this list? his peak (three years of top 5 hart finishes) blow away the shannys, goulets, robatailles, propps, etc.

The one thing that really hurts Naslund IMO (other than longevity) is that he never was able to carry his regular season dominance into the playoffs.

Shanahan's playoff performances blow Naslund's out of the water so much that it's an easy call for me, given the longevity advantage.

As for Robitaille vs. Naslund... at some point you can be very good for so long and accumulate such good career numbers that it overwhelms an outstanding 3 year peak. In my opinion, Robitaille reached that point.

 

[Wetcoaster]

Here are a couple of other names to ponder:

Woody Dumart (think Bob Gainey but with more of a scoring touch)
Valeri Kharlamov

 

[Big Phil]

Wow. No Bill Barber?

Kind of what I was wondering. I think I would put him in there at least ahead of Mats Naslund. I mean you have the weakest position of all and Naslund manages just one first team all-star? Give me Barber anyday of the week

 

[Boxscore]

Here are a couple of other names to ponder:

Woody Dumart (think Bob Gainey but with more of a scoring touch)
Valeri Kharlamov

He has Kharlamov in the #3 spot.

 

[reckoning]

Patrick Elias deserves consideration as well. More playoff points than any other NHLer in this decade (source), along with being a solid contributor defensively.

I realize that Elias will never make the HHOF, while Luc Robitaille will probably be inducted next week. But which one would you rather have on your team?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Perhaps

Patrick Elias deserves consideration as well. More playoff points than any other NHLer in this decade (source), along with being a solid contributor defensively.

I realize that Elias will never make the HHOF, while Luc Robitaille will probably be inducted next week. But which one would you rather have on your team?

Would not discount Patrick Elias from HHOF consideration and entry as the HHOF has a history of weighing LW contributions differently - evidenced by the enshrinement of Dick Duff, Harry Watson, Bert Olmstead and other left wingers whose stats are not as strikingly impressive as centers or right wingers.

Another who could be considered would be Henrik Zetterberg.

I have a bias against including active players on all-time lists so I will not touch on their making the top 20 list.

Your post raises another issue and that is the criteria for evaluating left wingers.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Honestly, I wouldn't have Delvecchio or Abel on that list. Having them on that list would be like putting Messier on the list. Delvecchio and Abel were awesome players, but I regard them as centres who played some LW, just like Messier.

My top 20:

1. Hull (no-brainer)
2. Lindsay (equal no-brainer)
3. Mahovlich
4. Kharlamov
5. Moore
6. Joliat
7. Jackson
8. Blake
9. Bentley
10. Bucyk
11. Denneny
12. Schriner
13. Firsov
14. Gainey
15. Shanahan
Then it gets tough. Probably would go...
16. Goulet
17. Robitaille
18. Yakushev
19. Barber
20. Roy Conacher

Note: I'm going to draw flack for saying this, but Ovechkin is already worth of debate for the top 20 LWs.

 

[God Bless Canada]

I think Ted Lindsay and Dickie Moore tend to get slightly overrated because of the dominance of the teams they played on in their primes. Johnny Bucyk is also slightly overrated by history due to being very good, rather than great, for a very long time.

I also tend to place more value on the careers of players from the old USSR than most. Other than that, agree with the composite top 100 with a few minor changes.

This is how I would rank them:

1. Bobby Hull
2. Valeri Kharlamov
3. Ted Lindsay
4. Frank Mahovlich
5. Anatoli Firsov
6. Cy Denneny
7. Dickie Moore
8. Aurele Joliat
9. Busher Jackson
10. Doug Bentley
11. Toe Blake
12. Sid Abel
13. Alex Delvecchio
14. Johnny Bucyk
15. Syd Howe
16. Brendan Shanahan
17. Alexander Yakushev
18. Bob Gainey
19. Luc Robitaille
20. Roy Conacher/Craig Ramsey/Goulet/Propp/Anderson? (I'm not going to think hard about which one was better right now)

Edit: If we consider Delvecchio and Abel LWs, do we have to do the same for Messier? I was under the impression the two of them usually played center, but occasionally LW - something that could be said about Messier.

Edit again: Syd Howe (if he counts), Shanahan, Yakushev, and Robitaille should be locks for the last 6. Gainey is a lock for the bottom 6 too if you put a lot of stock into playoff performance, like I do. He was one of the most important players on the last Habs dynasty.

I don't think Lindsay and Moore get overrated. Those teams were dominant in large part due to Lindsay and Moore.

Lindsay? I think he's the finest competitor who ever played the game. Not the best player. But the most competitive player. Nobody hated losing more than Lindsay. He's also the only guy to lead the league in goals, assists, points and PIMs. (Not in the same season, mind you, but it's an incredible feat).

Moore? Set some league scoring records. Injuries held him back. His peak was incredible, though, and he was a fantastic player in the post-season.

Bucyk was a bull. He was stuck on some truly awful Boston teams early in his career. Had some top 10 finishes in scoring. Then the Bruins picked up Orr, Espo and Hodge, and they took off. He put up nearly a point-per-game in several seasons in the O6 (impressive) even though the Bruins were usually the league's laughing stock. The things he did late in his career are testaments to his skill level and work ethic.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Note: I'm going to draw flack for saying this, but Ovechkin is already worth of debate for the top 20 LWs.

You shouldn't. To compare Ovechkin to the OP's list, I'd take him over Mats Naslund for sure. Probably Schriner and Gainey as well. Another couple of great seasons and it will be pretty tough to keep him out of the top-10. Heck, you could already probably argue that he's a Dickie Moore without the playoff success in terms of accomplishments and impact.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Patrick Elias deserves consideration as well. More playoff points than any other NHLer in this decade (source), along with being a solid contributor defensively.

I realize that Elias will never make the HHOF, while Luc Robitaille will probably be inducted next week. But which one would you rather have on your team?

Wow, I knew Elias was a great playoff performer, but I had no idea he was the leading scorer for the decade in the playoffs. That has to be taken into account when it comes time to consider him for the hall of fame.

 

[Fredrik_71]

No love for Krutov?

Look at his numbers for CSKA
http://www.eurohockey.net/players/show_player.cgi?serial=18515

//Cheers

 

[alexthekidd]

Honestly, I wouldn't have Delvecchio or Abel on that list. Having them on that list would be like putting Messier on the list. Delvecchio and Abel were awesome players, but I regard them as centres who played some LW, just like Messier.

My top 20:

1. Hull (no-brainer)
2. Lindsay (equal no-brainer)
3. Mahovlich
4. Kharlamov
5. Moore
6. Joliat
7. Jackson
8. Blake
9. Bentley
10. Bucyk
11. Denneny
12. Schriner
13. Firsov
14. Gainey
15. Shanahan
Then it gets tough. Probably would go...
16. Goulet
17. Robitaille
18. Yakushev
19. Barber
20. Roy Conacher

Note: I'm going to draw flack for saying this, but Ovechkin is already worth of debate for the top 20 LWs.

Have to agree with you here, Caps homerism aside. Holds the record for most goals in a single season by a LW ever, a Hart, a Pearson, a Ross and 2x Rocket Richards - possibly more hardware to come tomorrow.

Does he fail to draw any consideration because he's played only 4 seasons?

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Does he fail to draw any consideration because he's played only 4 seasons?

Yep.

It's just not a fair sample. The biggest problem is that there's no fair way to grade it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yep.

It's just not a fair sample. The biggest problem is that there's no fair way to grade it.

That's the one advantage that points based systems like pnep's and ogopogo's have - there's no question on when someone has achieved enough to be added.

Anyway, as for Ovechkin - he's about to receive his second Hart trohpy (I'd be really surprised if Malkin gets it; Datsyuk isn't even a question). Is there any player in history who got 2 Harts who isn't in the top 100? I don't think so. Ovechin has pretty clearly already accomplished more than Bure or Lindros - both players in my top 120, but not in my top 100.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

That's the one advantage that points based systems like pnep's and ogopogo's have - there's no question on when someone has achieved enough to be added.

Agreed, but both systems have their flaws. But both are good tools.

The flipside is, it also isn't fair to Alex. On pure peak value, he is no worse than 6th so far.

 

[seventieslord]

Wow. No Bill Barber?

Referring to post 1 or post 2? In post 1, based on the aggragate list, he would not look out of place. In post 2, more refined, he would.

Edit: If we consider Delvecchio and Abel LWs, do we have to do the same for Messier? I was under the impression the two of them usually played center, but occasionally LW - something that could be said about Messier.

If I understand it correctly, those are half and half type players whereas Messier was a LW for just a few years and then a center for nearly 20 more. So I'd be inclined to count Delvecchio, Howe, and Abel, but not Messier. Or none at all. but either way I wouldn't count the moose.

Harry Watson and Bert Olmstead should be considered ahead of Roy Conacher. Watson lost a few seasons to the war, had a longer and better career,played more Stanley Cups winners, more physical and better defensively, leadership qualities.

Are you aware that Roy Conacher lost two more years to the war than Watson did? And that he was 26-29 in the years he missed as opposed to Watson, who was 20-21?

Conacher's just a better player. You're right that Olmstead and Watson have him beaten in intangibles, but you've gotta draw the line somewhere. Conacher led the NHL in goals once and was a four-time runner-up.

Craig Ramsey/Bob Gainey. Ramsey could not match-up against the physical right wingers of the era or the physical teams. Once Gainey joined the Canadiens their performance against the Flyers and other physical teams like the Bruins improved.

So Ramsay was small. I don't care how they do it, just as long as they get it done. Ramsay scored more, and got scored on less, even though he was in Buffalo with much lesser teammates.