Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 6

[Batis]

Since TDMM already have made a great post about the case for Vyacheslav Fetisov being the top Non-NHL European I figured that I could make a post about why I rank Makarov slightly ahead of Fetisov. For many years I have had such a hard time deciding which one of Makarov and Fetisov that I view as the greatest Soviet player of all time. An example of this is that I during the Non-NHL Europeans project ranked Fetisov ahead in Round 1 and Makarov ahead in Round 2. Over the last couple of years when I have watched more Soviet hockey than ever and done so with a more analytical mindset than before I have however started to feel like Makarov belongs ahead of Fetisov on my all-time list. Makarov was just such an incredibly consistent performer throughout his prime and while Fetisov was amazing as well I personally feel like Makarovs incredible puck possession skills was the most important factor on the Green Unit. That unit just built so much of their success on puck possession and while every single member of the unit excelled at puck possession it was clearly Makarov who stood out the most in that type of play. Aside from the eye-test there are also some other reasons for why I now tend to rank Makarov slightly ahead of Fetisov.

1. Izvestia golden stick voting (Best player in Europe poll): Their respective Izvestia golden stick voting records suggests that the European observers voting on that award considered Makarov the superior player during their primes as evident by him having twice as many top 4 voting finishes as Fetisov (10 vs 5) and almost twice as many top 6 finishes (11 vs 6). And as I mentioned earlier considering how well fellow defenceman Vasiliev fared in the Izvestia voting (2 times top 3, 4 times top 8) despite being 29 years old when the award was created I am not so sure about that much of a anti-defencemen bias existed among the Izvestia voters either.

Sergei Makarov

Voting finishes: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th and 6th

Vyacheslav Fetisov:

Voting finishes: 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 10th

2. Consistency: Makarov was an incredibly consistent player. For 11 straight years between 78/79 and 88/89 he was voted a top 3 forward among Soviets in both the Izvestian golden stick voting and the Soviet player of the year voting (when using the Izvestia voting in 78/79 as a replacement for that seasons lack of SPOTY poll). As mentioned in the previous round Fetisov on the other hand had a downperiod between 78/79 and 80/81 when he did not recieve a single vote in the SPOTY voting for 3 straight years. As a result of this Fetisov "only" recieved votes during 9 seasons compared to Makarovs 12 seasons.

3. More individual success before their time on the Green Unit: In my opinion another point in Makarovs favour is that he was the most proven and accomplished player before the Green Unit was created. Just to be clear I am not saying that Fetisov was a product of the Green Unit in any way (as he was the co-driver of that unit in my opinion) but that Makarov had so much success even before those years (81/82-88/89) is still clearly a point in his favour as far as I am concerned.

Makarov who just had turned 23 when the unit was formed had already won 2 Soviet League scoring titles, 1 Soviet League goalscoring title, 1 Soviet player of the year award (plus 3 times top-4 in the voting), 1 Izvestia golden stick award (plus 3 times top-4 in the voting), 3 first team Soviet all-star selections, 1 WHC Directorate best forward award, 2 WHC first team all-star selections and 1 time WHC goalscoring leader.

Fetisov who also recently had turned 23 had 1 WHC best defenceman award, 1 WHC first team all-star selection, 2 first team Soviet all-star selections and had once finished 3rd in the Soviet player of the year voting in 77/78.

So I guess that the theme of the arguments for why I rank Makarov slightly ahead of Fetisov is that I am very high on the incredible consistency that Makarov showed over his 11-year long prime period. With this said I recognize that there are some valid arguments for having Fetisov ahead of Makarov as well (as evident by that I have switched back and forth between them for years) and the only "wrong" answer to the question who is the greatest Soviet player of all time is anyone answering their choice and then adding and it is not even close. Because it is close, very close.

 

[daver]

I would argue that as a goalscorer, Bossy was ahead of OV until OV's 10th or 11th season given his playoff success and should be in the Top 10 goalscorers of all-time just below the Big 6 (Richard, Howe, Hull, Wayne, Mario and OV).

His prime is up there with a few of the Big 6 but obviously loses out on longevity.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Bossy would be number one in pts over his career, from start to finish, both RS and PO's. But that weird Gretzky shows up and makes a mockery out of his results. I can see why Bossy would harbor some...annoyance with that/him.

NHL.com - Stats
NHL.com - Stats

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Joe Sakic's consistency as a top 20 scorer
Points finishes listed:
1989-90: 10th
1991-91: 6th
1991-92: 14th
1992-93: 17th
1993-94: 19th
1994-95: 4th
1995-96: 3rd
1996-97: missed 17 games, but 11th in points-per-game
1997-98: missed 18 games, but 17th in points-per-game
1998-99: 5th
1999-00: 8th
2000-01: 2nd
2001-02: 5th
2002-03: missed 24 games, but 16th in points-per-game
2003-04: 2nd
2005-06: 17th
2006-07: 6th

An interesting post- admired by many... but-- am I the only one who sees this assertion and is led more to skepticism and suspicion than admiration?

Setting aside the whole question as to whether the "continuation bets" like placings in the late-teens in these categories have any chance of moving me to the polls to support Sakic, there is the "see-what-you-did-there" aspect of the mixed flavors...

When total points served the illustration, total points were presented. When it didn't serve any further, points-per-game was trotted out. When total points again presented the rosier picture, total points came back to the fore- until it again stopped being as useful, and points-per-game came over the boards for a quick shift, then was as quickly swapped out for total points again. Gives me an opportunity to use a 50¢ word: tendentious.

Let me see if I can do this a little more uniformly-

Mike Bossy's Consistency as a TOP THREE goal-scorer
1977-78: 2nd
1978-79: 1st
1979-80: 5th
1980-81: 1st
1981-82: 2nd
1982-83: 3rd
1983-84: 7th
1984-85: 3rd
1985-86: 2nd

So- one of things that jumps off the page is- how did it come to pass that Bossy sunk down to the abyssal depths of NOT scoring in the top-3 those two years? The obvious answer is the correct one. After Bossy's Calder-year, those are the two seasons where he had the most time-loss due to injury. [This also points to the fact that if I were to do this computation as a "goals-per-game" presentation, it would probably look even more favorable to Bossy.] A deeper look into the 83-84 campaign shows than, in spite of missing 13 games, he had his 2nd highest ever ordinal count in assists [an assist per game], but had fewer goals than Gretzky and his line-mates. He only got to position #5 in the points-race. Slacker.

 

[Batis]

Here are the best-on-best international tournaments numbers of the new available players. Again with a focus on the knockout stage but also taking the overall numbers into account.

Makarov
Canada Cup 1981: 2 gp, 0 g, 2 a, 2 pts
Canada Cup 1984: 1 gp, 1 g, 0 a, 1 pts
Canada Cup 1987: 4 gp, 3 g, 5 a, 8 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 7 gp, 4 g, 7 a, 11 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 22 gp, 16 g, 15 a, 31 pts

Trottier
Canada Cup 1981: 2 gp, 0 g, 3 a, 3 pts
Canada Cup 1984: 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 3 gp, 0 g, 3 a, 3 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 13 gp, 8 g, 8 a, 16 pts

Bossy
Canada Cup 1981: 2 gp, 2 g, 1 a, 3 pts
Canada Cup 1984: 3 gp, 1 g, 1 a, 2 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 5 gp, 3 g, 2 a, 5 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 15 gp, 13 g, 7 a, 20 pts

Sakic
World Cup 1996: 5 gp, 1 g, 1 a, 2 pts
Olympics 1998: 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Olympics 2002: 3 gp, 3 g, 3 a, 6 pts
World Cup 2004: 3 gp, 2 g, 2 a, 4 pts
Olympics 2006: 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 13 gp, 6 g, 6 a, 12 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 30 gp, 12 g, 11 a, 23 pts

Out of the new available players Makarov scored at the highest rate at both the knockout stage and overall at best-on-best tournaments. He also matches Espositos numbers and considering that Makarov also brought plenty of elite penalty killing to the table (1st in shorthanded icetime among Soviet forwards in 1984, 3rd in 1987 and 4th in 1981) I would say that he has the best case for having the strongest best-on-best tournaments resume of the available players.

Trottier, Bossy and Sakic all have very strong numbers at best-on-best tournaments as well. Especially the overall numbers of Bossy and Trottier are very impressive. But while they performed well at the knockout stage they still both clearly slowed down somewhat compared to the group stage. Sakic was the complete opposite as he clearly scored at a higher rate at the knockout stage than at the group stage. Considering that Sakic played in a lower scoring era than Bossy and Trottier I would say that his knockout stage numbers are somewhat more impressive than theirs while they still clearly have stronger overall numbers at best-on-best tournaments even when taking scoring enviroment into account. But as the knockout stage generally should be seen as more important I would personally say that Trottier, Bossy and Sakic probably belongs in the same tier when it comes to best-on-best tournaments.

In general this group of players are very hard to rank when it comes to best-on-best resumes considering that all of them did so very well. But here is a rough draft.

Makarov
Esposito
Fetisov
Brodeur/Bossy/Trottier/Sakic
Clarke

Here are the numbers of the other available players.

Esposito
Summit Series 1972: 8 gp, 7 g, 6 a, 13 pts
Canada Cup 1976: 2 g, 1 g, 2 a, 3 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 10 gp, 8 g, 8 a, 16 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 15 gp, 11 g, 9 a, 20 pts

Fetisov
Canada Cup 1981: 2 gp, 0 g, 2 a, 2 pts
Canada Cup 1987: 4 gp, 2 g, 4 a, 6 pts
World Cup 1996: 2 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 8 gp, 2 g, 6 a, 8 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 20 gp, 3 g, 14 a, 17 pts

Brodeur
World Cup 1996: 1 gp, 15 saves on 16 shots, 0.938
Olympics 2002: 3 gp, 62 saves on 66 shots, 0.939
World Cup 2004: 2 gp, 50 saves on 52 shots, 0.962
Olympics 2006: 1 gp, 31 saves on 33 shots, 0.939
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 7 gp, 158 saves on 167 shots, 0.946

Clarke
Summit Series 1972: 8 gp, 2 g, 4 a, 6 pts
Canada Cup 1976: 2 gp, 1 g, 1 a, 2 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage:10 gp, 3 g, 5 a, 8 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 14 gp, 3 g, 6 a, 9 pts

 

[Sentinel]

Ahead of Bossy by a landslide. I feel Bossy is more comparable to Ted Lindsay.

And I feel Bossy is really underrated.

 

[Sentinel]

Finally Makarov is available. He is my 10-12 player of all time, and anything below is practically a slap in the face not just to the Russians, but to those Canadian teams that barely edged out victories against them.

You would think that a team that already has FOUR players cemented in this list would beat a team that has ZERO players a bit more convincingly than what happened in reality.

 

[blogofmike]

Hot take: Mike Bossy was the best goal scorer of the 1980s, not Wayne Gretzky. At least if you define goal scoring as scoring meaningful goals against good defences, not running up the score in meaningless games.

Sure, Gretzky racked up the goals in the 1980s NHL regular season when 80% of teams made the playoffs. But in the playoffs and in Canada Cups, Bossy was the better goal scorer.

NHL.com - Stats

Even in the regular season, peak Bossy scored game winning goals and first goals at a higher rate than peak Gretzky.

NHL.com - Stats

I hope the panel gives Bossy credit for his record at scoring important goals contributing to winning. He wasn’t just filling up the stat sheet.

A lot of this is because Gretzky's role on the PP wasn't as the shooter. Many times Gretzky would finish a series with more SH goals than PP goals. In your link Gretzky seems to be the better ES, SH, 1G, GW, and even PS goal scorer in the playoffs. Kurri and Anderson are also better ES scorers than Bossy in the playoffs, and have higher assists marks than Bossy too.

Against common opponents, (which is basically whenever they play Philadelphia,) Gretzky scores 2 G in 3 games in 1980 vs Bossy's 4 in 6, 7 G in 5 games vs Bossy's 1 in 5, and a marginally better 2 G in 7 games vs Bossy's 1 in 4, though both weren't in the best of health at that point. Overall Gretzky outscores Bossy 11-6 over 15 games against common playoff opponents, and 8-1 at ES. Of course the Flyers were an uncommonly good playoff defence.

 

[Nick Hansen]

To be honest, he's a guy I felt we overrated in that project. Outside the two Cup wins he doesn't blow you away. Is he significantly better than say...Bobby Clarke or Terry Sawchuk in this regard?

Looking at it, I might be inclined to agree with you. I'm not sure I'd rank Sakic over Forsberg, though Sakic had the single best playoff out of them (and that was a hell of a performance).

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

And I feel Bossy is really underrated.

Now, I'm not going to make the case that Bossy is a strong candidate for advancement- I'm just looking to push back against the idea that he's somehow an afterthought in this round. Closer review shows me leaning to the side that he's a middle-of-the-pack'er this at this point, and merits a lot more than breezy dismissal.

His plus/minus is outstanding, even taking into account the dynastic background of the data's accumulation. His power-play numbers are ultra-elite, which suggests that plus/minus doesn't fully represent the complete picture of his value. His discipline is roughly Lidström-level when it comes to staying out of the box- an item of particular importance in his career; because his era is, historically speaking, a pretty bad time to be short-handed.

 

[Sentinel]

An interesting post- admired by many... but-- am I the only one who sees this assertion and is led more to skepticism and suspicion than admiration?

Setting aside the whole question as to whether the "continuation bets" like placings in the late-teens in these categories have any chance of moving me to the polls to support Sakic, there is the "see-what-you-did-there" aspect of the mixed flavors...

When total points served the illustration, total points were presented. When it didn't serve any further, points-per-game was trotted out. When total points again presented the rosier picture, total points came back to the fore- until it again stopped being as useful, and points-per-game came over the boards for a quick shift, then was as quickly swapped out for total points again. Gives me an opportunity to use a 50¢ word: tendentious.

Let me see if I can do this a little more uniformly-

Mike Bossy's Consistency as a TOP THREE goal-scorer
1977-78: 2nd
1978-79: 1st
1979-80: 5th
1980-81: 1st
1981-82: 2nd
1982-83: 3rd
1983-84: 7th
1984-85: 3rd
1985-86: 2nd

So- one of things that jumps off the page is- how did it come to pass that Bossy sunk down to the abyssal depths of NOT scoring in the top-3 those two years? The obvious answer is the correct one. After Bossy's Calder-year, those are the two seasons where he had the most time-loss due to injury. [This also points to the fact that if I were to do this computation as a "goals-per-game" presentation, it would probably look even more favorable to Bossy.] A deeper look into the 83-84 campaign shows than, in spite of missing 13 games, he had his 2nd highest ever ordinal count in assists [an assist per game], but had fewer goals than Gretzky and his line-mates. He only got to position #5 in the points-race. Slacker.

The only thing Sakic has on Bossy is his stellar two-way play... in the second half of his career. At their worst, they both were 3rd best players on their teams... but Bossy's was a dynasty.

 

[wetcoast]

An interesting post- admired by many... but-- am I the only one who sees this assertion and is led more to skepticism and suspicion than admiration?

Setting aside the whole question as to whether the "continuation bets" like placings in the late-teens in these categories have any chance of moving me to the polls to support Sakic, there is the "see-what-you-did-there" aspect of the mixed flavors...

When total points served the illustration, total points were presented. When it didn't serve any further, points-per-game was trotted out. When total points again presented the rosier picture, total points came back to the fore- until it again stopped being as useful, and points-per-game came over the boards for a quick shift, then was as quickly swapped out for total points again. Gives me an opportunity to use a 50¢ word: tendentious.

Let me see if I can do this a little more uniformly-

Mike Bossy's Consistency as a TOP THREE goal-scorer
1977-78: 2nd
1978-79: 1st
1979-80: 5th
1980-81: 1st
1981-82: 2nd
1982-83: 3rd
1983-84: 7th
1984-85: 3rd
1985-86: 2nd

So- one of things that jumps off the page is- how did it come to pass that Bossy sunk down to the abyssal depths of NOT scoring in the top-3 those two years? The obvious answer is the correct one. After Bossy's Calder-year, those are the two seasons where he had the most time-loss due to injury. [This also points to the fact that if I were to do this computation as a "goals-per-game" presentation, it would probably look even more favorable to Bossy.] A deeper look into the 83-84 campaign shows than, in spite of missing 13 games, he had his 2nd highest ever ordinal count in assists [an assist per game], but had fewer goals than Gretzky and his line-mates. He only got to position #5 in the points-race. Slacker.

I think that one of the big differences in comparing top finishes between Sakic and guys like Bossy, Trottier, Clarke and Esposito is that the elite talent from europe was coming over in full force and competing with Sakic for those spots, while the other 4 guys had very little of that talent to compete with and heck even some top elite type scorers were in the WHA in the 70's.

Makarov is the prime example for Bossy, as he is available this round.

 

[Sentinel]

Mike Bossy is a poor man's Guy Lafleur.

Guy was the best player on his team during his peak. Bossy was not.

Guy just made it in which means Bossy should be waiting for a bit.

Easy peasy in my eyes.

Canadiens' total talent was more spread out (Big Three = Potvin?) so it was easier for Lafleur to stand out. Lafleur was a better passer, Bossy a far better scorer (and no slouch defensively).

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Since TDMM already have made a great post about the case for Vyacheslav Fetisov being the top Non-NHL European I figured that I could make a post about why I rank Makarov slightly ahead of Fetisov. For many years I have had such a hard time deciding which one of Makarov and Fetisov that I view as the greatest Soviet player of all time. An example of this is that I during the Non-NHL Europeans project ranked Fetisov ahead in Round 1 and Makarov ahead in Round 2. Over the last couple of years when I have watched more Soviet hockey than ever and done so with a more analytical mindset than before I have however started to feel like Makarov belongs ahead of Fetisov on my all-time list. Makarov was just such an incredibly consistent performer throughout his prime and while Fetisov was amazing as well I personally feel like Makarovs incredible puck possession skills was the most important factor on the Green Unit. That unit just built so much of their success on puck possession and while every single member of the unit excelled at puck possession it was clearly Makarov who stood out the most in that type of play. Aside from the eye-test there are also some other reasons for why I now tend to rank Makarov slightly ahead of Fetisov.

1. Izvestia golden stick voting (Best player in Europe poll): Their respective Izvestia golden stick voting records suggests that the European observers voting on that award considered Makarov the superior player during their primes as evident by him having twice as many top 4 voting finishes as Fetisov (10 vs 5) and almost twice as many top 6 finishes (11 vs 6). And as I mentioned earlier considering how well fellow defenceman Vasiliev fared in the Izvestia voting (2 times top 3, 4 times top 8) despite being 29 years old when the award was created I am not so sure about that much of a anti-defencemen bias existed among the Izvestia voters either.

Sergei Makarov

Voting finishes: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th and 6th

Vyacheslav Fetisov:

Voting finishes: 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 10th

2. Consistency: Makarov was an incredibly consistent player. For 11 straight years between 78/79 and 88/89 he was voted a top 3 forward among Soviets in both the Izvestian golden stick voting and the Soviet player of the year voting (when using the Izvestia voting in 78/79 as a replacement for that seasons lack of SPOTY poll). As mentioned in the previous round Fetisov on the other hand had a downperiod between 78/79 and 80/81 when he did not recieve a single vote in the SPOTY voting for 3 straight years. As a result of this Fetisov "only" recieved votes during 9 seasons compared to Makarovs 12 seasons.

3. More individual success before their time on the Green Unit: In my opinion another point in Makarovs favour is that he was the most proven and accomplished player before the Green Unit was created. Just to be clear I am not saying that Fetisov was a product of the Green Unit in any way (as he was the co-driver of that unit in my opinion) but that Makarov had so much success even before those years (81/82-88/89) is still clearly a point in his favour as far as I am concerned.

Makarov who just had turned 23 when the unit was formed had already won 2 Soviet League scoring titles, 1 Soviet League goalscoring title, 1 Soviet player of the year award (plus 3 times top-4 in the voting), 1 Izvestia golden stick award (plus 3 times top-4 in the voting), 3 first team Soviet all-star selections, 1 WHC Directorate best forward award, 2 WHC first team all-star selections and 1 time WHC goalscoring leader.

Fetisov who also recently had turned 23 had 1 WHC best defenceman award, 1 WHC first team all-star selection, 2 first team Soviet all-star selections and had once finished 3rd in the Soviet player of the year voting in 77/78.

So I guess that the theme of the arguments for why I rank Makarov slightly ahead of Fetisov is that I am very high on the incredible consistency that Makarov showed over his 11-year long prime period. With this said I recognize that there are some valid arguments for having Fetisov ahead of Makarov as well (as evident by that I have switched back and forth between them for years) and the only "wrong" answer to the question who is the greatest Soviet player of all time is anyone answering their choice and then adding and it is not even close. Because it is close, very close.

Great post. I was also debating in which order to rank Fetisov and Makarov.

In the Soviet award voting that you mentioned, is there the same tendency (which we see in the NHL) to vote for forwards more often? In other words, can some of Makarov’s success be explained by voter bias, or is it all/mostly deserved?

Also how would you rank their time in the NHL? Fetisov obviously has more team success but who would you say played at closer to their full ability/potential?

 

[BenchBrawl]

I think what I'm going to do is have Makarov and Fetisov back-to-back, wherever they may fall in my ranking.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Mike Bossy is a poor man's Guy Lafleur.

Guy was the best player on his team during his peak. Bossy was not.

Guy just made it in which means Bossy should be waiting for a bit.

Easy peasy in my eyes.

I wouldn't call him a poor man's Guy Lafleur. More of a very rich man's Steve Shutt. Either way, and as much as I am genuinely impressed with his scoring abilities, he likely will be out the outside looking in for me.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Trottier scored 95 points as a rookie before Bossy ever played. Trottier was fine (although I think both owe a pretty decent amount to Potvin).

But it's the same thing with every good team. To what degree does X owe Y for their success? I think (with the exception of Espo), the general tenor of the discussion has been to not take away credit based on playing on strong teams (see, e.g. every single member of the 50s Habs being on the list already including their equipment manager).

Agreed. And I think we need to give Espo more credit as well.

 

[blogofmike]

These are the guys who made tournament all-star teams in best-on-best competition.

1981 Canada Cup	Mike Bossy	7 GP, 8-3-11
1984 Canada Cup	Sergei Makarov	6 GP, 6-1-7, +7
1987 Canada Cup	Slava Fetisov	9 GP, 2-5-7, -6
2002 Olympics	Joe Sakic (also MVP)	6 GP, 4-3-7, +6
2004 World Cup	Martin Brodeur	5-0, .961, 1.00 GAA

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[wetcoast]

Looking at it, I might be inclined to agree with you. I'm not sure I'd rank Sakic over Forsberg, though Sakic had the single best playoff out of them (and that was a hell of a performance).

Sakic is clearly a better playoff performer over Clarke and Sawchuck in my mind.

Sure Sakic had Forsberg, who I think was a better overall playoff performer during his time with Sakic but in the Flyers 2 SC runs, if Parent hadn't won the conn smythe, the next best player was probably Rick MacLeish, who was injured and didn't play in the playoffs in 75-76 but rookie Mel Bridgman did very well in the 2C spot..

 

[wetcoast]

Agreed. And I think we need to give Espo more credit as well.

Give Esposito more credit for what?

He has the worst valley in the playoffs for any player this round and take away Orr from that team he is still probably a top 120 player but way down the list.

As much as I think that Fetisov has some red flags in his NHL play, Esposito has more of them.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Makarov vs Fetisov.

1984 Canada Cup without Fetisov, the Soviets did not make the finals. Makarov scored his goals but was shutdown as a playmaker,registering 1 assist.

1981 and 1987 Canada Cup with Fetisov, Makarov registered 6 and 8 assists.

 

[wetcoast]

I wouldn't call him a poor man's Guy Lafleur. More of a very rich man's Steve Shutt. Either way, and as much as I am genuinely impressed with his scoring abilities, he likely will be out the outside looking in for me.

Bossy is a lot closer to Lafleur than he is to Shutt and it's not even close.

That being said Makarov should be higher than both of them but Guy slipped in last round.

 

[Sentinel]

I'd still love for anyone to convince me Lidstrom is better than Sakic, even if it's off-topic.Or point me to a post I might have missed where this is addressed.

Do you need convincing that Lidstrom was better than Ozolinsh, while you're at it? Or Foote?

 

[wetcoast]

Makarov vs Fetisov.

1984 Canada Cup without Fetisov, the Soviets did not make the finals. Makarov scored his goals but was shutdown as a playmaker,registering 1 assist.

1981 and 1987 Canada Cup with Fetisov, Makarov registered 6 and 8 assists.

In 87 Fetisov was a -6 player as well.

That being said we are talking about really small sample sizes of comparing 6 games to 7 and 9 game segments.

Overall in 22 games he (Makarov) had 16-15-31 and it helps his case alot here.

Elite Prospects - CC Stats All-time totals

 

[Sentinel]

Makarov vs Fetisov.

1984 Canada Cup without Fetisov, the Soviets did not make the finals. Makarov scored his goals but was shutdown as a playmaker,registering 1 assist.

1981 and 1987 Canada Cup with Fetisov, Makarov registered 6 and 8 assists.

"Did not make the finals"? They still ran into Canada every time. That's one odd way of presenting it...