Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 6

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by quoipourquoi, Dec 3, 2018.

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  1. quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    Procedure
    • You will be presented with 10+ players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list (10 players plus anyone with 99% of the voting points of the 10th ranked player)
    • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
    • You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
    • Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
    • The top-4 players will be added to The List in Vote 1, while the top-5 players will be added to The List in subsequent voting cycles (#1-4 in Vote 1, #5-9 in Vote 2, #10-14 in Vote 3, #15-19 in Vote 4, #20-24 in Vote 5, #25-29 in Vote 6, #30-34 in Vote 7, #35-39 in Vote 8, #40-44 in Vote 9, #45-49 in Vote 10, #50-54 in Vote 11, #55-59 in Vote 12, #60-64 in Vote 13, #65-69 in Vote 14, #70-74 in Vote 15, #75-79 in Vote 16, #80-84 in Vote 17, #85-89 in Vote 18, #90-94 in Vote 19, #95-99 in Vote 20)
    • A 100th player will be added to The List in Vote 21 from an expanded group of 15 candidates

    Eligible Voters
    • Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 120 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
    • Art of Sedinery, Batis, BenchBrawl, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, ChiTownPhilly, DannyGallivan, Dennis Bonvie, Dr John Carlson, ehhedler, Hockey Outsider, Iceman, ImporterExporter, Johnny Engine, JoseTheodore2002, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, pappyline, quoipourquoi, ResilientBeast, Sentinel, seventieslord, steve141, ted1971, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGeneral, The Macho Man, tony d, VanIslander

    Guidelines
    • Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
    • Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
    • Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
    • Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

    House Rules
    • Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
    • We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
    • Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
    • Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

    The actual voting period will open up on Friday, December 7th at midnight and continue through Sunday, December 9th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, December 10th.


    Vote 6 Candidates
    • Bobby Clarke
    • Bryan Trottier
    • Cyclone Taylor
    • Glenn Hall
    • Joe Sakic
    • Martin Brodeur
    • Mike Bossy
    • Phil Esposito
    • Sergei Makarov
    • Terry Sawchuk
    • Viacheslav Fetisov
     
  2. The Macho King World Champion*

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    Nice adds.

    Interesting discussions this round:

    Trottier v. Clarke
    Fetisov v. Makarov
    Bossy v. Trottier/Potvin
     
  3. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    First impressions: Slava Fetisov, Sergei Makarov, and Glenn Hall are locks for my top 5. Brodeur starts there too, but could fall out, if good arguments are made for certain forwards.

    Mike Bossy an option over Bill Cook? Terrible. We spent a long time on the wingers project deciding which order to place Lafleur, Makarov, and Cook, with Bossy a clear step below. And Cook isn't even an option, one round after Lafleur gets in? Heck, why is Taylor an option before Cook?

    I still prefer Sakic to Clarke, but that could change. Prefer both to Trottier, and doubt it changes. Prefer Trottier to Bossy.
     
  4. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    REPOST FROM THE HOH TOP NON-NHL EUROPEANS PROJECT AND LAST ROUND

    The Case for Slava Fetisov as the best non-NHL European hockey player of All-Time


    A. He was easily the best Soviet Defenseman of all-time, as shown by Player of the Year voting:

    Top 5 finishes for "best player of the season," defensemen only:

    Fetisov: 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5
    Vasiliev: 3, 5
    Pervukhin: 5, 5
    Ragulin: 5
    Kasatonov: 5

    (I had to recalculate these because the original table by @Theokritos was destroyed in the site migration).

    (Note that the Soviet Player of the Year award existed from 1968-1990)

    B. Best awards record at the World Championships of any Player at any position

    1. Voted Directorate Best Defenseman 5 Times (1978, 1982, 1985, 1986, 1989)
    • Jiri Holecek - Directorate Best Goaltender 5 Times (1971, 1973, 1975, 1976, 1978) is the only other player who was voted best at his position more than 3 times.
    • Players who won the Directorate award at his position 3 times: Directorate Best Defenseman: Vasiliev (1973, 1977, 1979) and Sologubov (1956, 1957, 1960) Directorate Best Forward: Firsov (1967, 1968, 1971) and Maltsev (1970, 1972, 1981). Diretorate Best Goaltender: Tretiak (1974, 1979, 1983)

    2. Voted Media All-Star Defenseman 9 Times (1978, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991)
    • Note that there were no WCs in the Olympic years of 1984 and 1988. Fetisov was an All-Star in every World Championships held between 1982 and 1991 (plus 1978).
    • Most Times All-Star Forward: 8 (Makarov - All-Star in Every WC Between 1979 and 1989)
    • 2nd Most Times All-Star Defenseman: 5 (Vasiliev, Ragulin, Kasatonov)

    C. Recieved more votes for the IIHF All-Time All-Star Team than any other player

    Out of 56 voters:
    Goaltender: Vladislav Tretiak (Soviet Union) 30 votes
    First defenceman: Viacheslav Fetisov (Soviet Union) 54 votes
    Second defenceman: Börje Salming (Sweden) 17 votes
    First winger: Valeri Kharlamov (Soviet Union) 21 votes
    Second winger: Sergei Makarov (Soviet Union) 18 votes
    Centre: Wayne Gretzky (Canada) 38 votes
    IIHF Centennial All-Star Team - Wikipedia

    D. Offensive dominance
    • Led the Soviet league in scoring by a defenseman in 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1984, 1986, 1987, 1988. 2nd in 1983, 1985, 1989.
    • Led 3 straight Olympic games in scoring by a defenseman (1980, 1984, 1988).
    • 2nd in defenseman scoring (to Kasatonov then Bourque) in the 1981 and 1987 Canada Cups (didn't play in 1984).

    E. Easily the best European defenseman of all-time. Whereas there really isn't a consensus best non-NHL European or goalie.
    • I've seen all of Kharlamov, Firsov, Makarov, Maltsev, and Mikhailov argued as the best Soviet forward of all time.
    • In North America, Tretiak is usually the only non-NHL goalie talked about, but there is a contingent in Europe who prefers Jiri Holecek. Indeed, Holecek's awards record at the World Championships when both were in their primes at the same time is a lot better.
    • On the other hand, no other defenseman touches Fetisov. Jan Suchy might have peaked as high, but his prime was very short. Vasiliev, who does have a full career, was never as highly thought of as Fetisov.
    F. Contribution to Team Success
    • Fetisov was the long-serving captain of both CSKA and the Soviet National Team at a time when the teams were the most dominant they ever were.
    • His teams won 11 Soviet League championships, 11 European Cups, 2 Olympic Golds, 7 World Championship Golds, and 1 Canada Cup

    G. Was talked about as the best (non-Gretzky) player in the World in the NORTH AMERICAN media. I don't think the same could be said about any other non-NHL European at any time. (Kharlamov is probably the closest, but I don't think many North American really thought he was better than Phil Esposito or Guy Lafleur).

    The following quotes are all in the Fetisov profile linked to previously. I'm focusing on specific instances of him being referred to as "the best player in the world" or the "best defenseman in the world" from North American sources.

    (emphasis mine)
    You just don't find this level of respect from North Americans about any other non-NHL European

    H. More anecdotal descriptions of his play style, plus praise from NHL players

    See this profile: ATD 2012 Bios Thread (as complete as possible: pic, quotes, stats, sources, etc)
     
  5. ResilientBeast ATD Draft Czar

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    Yes! Taylor has finally become available
     
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  6. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    REPOST FROM LAST ROUND

    Posts about Brodeur, Hall, and Sawchuk from the HOH Top Goalies project (mostly links)


    Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

    Terry Sawchuk and Glenn Hall from Sports Illustrated (if you only click on one link in this post, click on this one):
    Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
    Hall clearly the best regular season goalie of his era (11 time 1st or 2nd Team All-Star!!!):
    Hall would have been my #1 LAST round if it weren't for the playoffs. See the posts below on his playoffs - he wasn't terrible (better career stats than Sawchuk...) but probably should have been better.

    Glenn Hall in the playoffs
    Glenn Hall in the playoffs summary 1956-1967: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
    Glenn Hall in the playoffs year by year: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
    Sawchuk's mediocrity after his 5 year peak:
    Detailed look at the playoffs of Sawchuk:
    Sawchuk 1951 playoffs: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
    Sawchuk 1952 playoffs: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
    Sawchuk 1953 playoffs: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
    Sawchuk 1954 playoffs: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
    Sawchuk 1955 playoffs: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

    Did Sawchuk lack stamina?
    The awards voters voted twice during the O6 period - at the halfway point and at the end of the season. Most of Sawchuk's recognition after the dynasty came in first half of the season votes; he received very little recognition at the end of the season: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

    The case for Sawchuk
    The effects of modern goalie competition (1 year wonders + Europeans) on Brodeur's trophy case:
    Brodeur actual All-Star Teams = 3 First Teams, 4 Second Teams.
    Brodeur no Europeans = 9 First Teams, 1 Second Teams.
    Brodeur no Europeans or Americans = 10 First Teams, 1 Second Teams.

    Full post on why is significantly more difficult to repeat as the top goalie in the modern league than it was in the original 6: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
    Full post on Brodeur's awards recognition in a league without Europeans: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

    The effects of NJ's historically stingy shot counter on Brodeur's save percentages:
    Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
    Summary - His Vezina year save percentage rankings of 3, 8, 13, 14 skyrocket to 1, 2, 4, 6 if we only look at road save percentages

    More on the difference in shotcounting between arenas: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

    Brodeur 2012 playoffs
    Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  7. MXD Original #4

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    My first reactions are :

    - This isn't exactly the group I wanted (and I really expected Robinson, even if I wouldn't have ranked him super high).
    - I MIGHT not be NR'ing Terry Sawchuk. Unbelieveable
    - Bill Cook was ahead of Mike Bossy in the wingers project, yet Mike Bossy is eligible before Cook.
     
  8. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Glenn Hall = the Gordie Howe or Ray Bourque of goaltenders in terms of consistently being voted top 2 at his position?

    Most times 1st or 2nd Team All-Star Goalie:

    Glenn Hall 11
    Frank Brimsek 8
    Terry Sawchuk 7
    Jacques Plante 7
    Bill Durnan 6
    Ken Dryden 6
    Dominik Hasek 6
    Patrick Roy 6
    Martin Brodeur 6

    Added: Most times 1st Team All-Star Goalie

    Glenn Hall 7
    Dominik Hasek 6
    Bill Durnan 6
    Ken Dryden 5
    Patrick Roy 4

    Now, competition for goalie is definitely tougher in a 30 team league, with the chance of a hot one-year wonder vastly increasing. But Hall's record vs his contemporaries is still very strong. And Hall's competition (including prime Plante and post-prime Sawchuk among other HHOFers) was definitely stronger than Brimsek and especially Durnan faced.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  9. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Ahead of Bossy by a landslide. I feel Bossy is more comparable to Ted Lindsay.
     
  10. The Macho King World Champion*

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    My gut instinct is Bossy or Sawchuk will be my NR player here (going with my tendency to dislike one-way wingers in general, but also I just don't think he has a very good case this round).

    Sakic and Trottier seem to me as insanely close comparisons. Both put up good offense, have a Hart, and are known for two-way play. I think Sakic might have a Selke (can't remember off-hand), and if I recall Trottier doesn't, but at the same time Trottier has a Ross and Sakic doesn't (although just barely). Playoffs are obviously pretty much a wash if not a slight edge to Trottier.

    Sakic might have a slight edge in longevity, but I don't think it's a huge one. Big knocks on Trottier v. Sakic is Trottier had Potvin and Bossy to help him out, while Sakic didn't have the same level of winger/D support to help him produce (although did get to play with Forsberg on the PP if I remember). Both teams dominated during rather lean years in competition (DPE had the top teams of the Avs, Stars, RW, and Devils, with some second-tier "okay" teams like the Caps and Flyers, but the league depth was pretty abysmal - Islanders period has rapid expansion, although by the last couple of years of their dynasty the talent level was picking up with more Euros and WHA adds).

    I think they're pretty close. Personal preference at the moment is Trottier, but a lot of that is just because he's one of my favorite players for a reason I have a hard time articulating.
     
  11. ImporterExporter "You're a boring old man"

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    Fetisov, Brodeur, and Hall are locks for me. First 2 were last round already.

    Makarov will almost surely be 4th or 5th.

    Congrats to Sawchuk. Bossy's inclusion means he won't get NR'd this time.

    4th-9th will be pretty fluid for me.

    I hope to help add a good deal on Cyclone Taylor this go.
     
  12. ResilientBeast ATD Draft Czar

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    I haven't been as active lately (I of course have been voting), but Taylor brings me back in to the fold.
     
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  13. seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    No bossy before Cook. I'm not budging on that.
     
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  14. Batis Registered User

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    Here is a somewhat upgraded version of my preliminary discussion post about Sergei Makarov.

    Regular season offence:

    It was recently discussed what Makarovs scoring dominance in the Soviet League roughly translates to compared to the NHL and most things seems to suggest that Makarovs regular season dominance offensively would put him in the 102.2-108.3 range when it comes to 7-year VsX.

    International scoring:

    This is how Makarov did scoringwise in major and minor international tournaments compared to Soviet and Czechoslovakian players.

    Voting records:

    Soviet player of the year voting:

    Izvestia golden stick voting:

    Penalty killing:

    Additionally Makarov was the greatest Soviet penalty killing forward of his generation and arguably the greatest Soviet penalty killing forward of all time. Honestly I would say that Makarov probably was the greatest penalty killing forward from the eastern bloc. His main competition for the top spot there being Jiri Holik. Here is the post about Makarov from my Soviet penalty killing study.

     
  15. BenchBrawl joueur de hockey

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    Bryan Trottier first forward since Gordie Howe who brought everything to the table.

    About Mike Bossy vs Bill Cook: In Bossy's favor, he is clearly a much superior playoff performer.
     
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  16. ResilientBeast ATD Draft Czar

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    Link to my ATD bio on Taylor Cyclone Taylor, 2018

    He's clearly after Nighbor player pre-consolidation that should be elected in.

    Pros
    - Tremendous star power
    - Was an excellent (cover) point in the NHA before playing Rover and Center in the PCHA
    - A long sustained peak with his best statistical seasons happening in his 30s in the PCHA where he was far an away the best player

    Cons
    - Weak playoff resume, he played in 3 challenge cup finals 14/15, 17/18 and 20/21 at ages 30, 33 and 36
    - His only win came with Nighbor on the Millionaires

    Boring counting statistics

    2x Stanley Cup Champion
    2x 2nd in NHA Points Among Defensemen
    2nd in ECAHA Points Among Defensemen, 06-07
    3rd in ECAHA Points Among Defensemen, 07-08
    36 points in 29 games in IHL as Forward
    5x Led PCHA in Assists
    5x Led PCHA in Points (Also led in PPG one more season having played half the season)
    3x Led PCHA in Goals
    1st all-time points in PCHA
    1st all-time assists in PCHA
    Inducted into the HHOF in 1947 (the first year they inducted still-living members)
     
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  17. Nick Hansen Registered User

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    Sakic's longevity must be considered much better than Trottier's, no?... He scored 100 pts as a 37-year old and finished 6th in points. His ten top 10 seasons in points took place between 89/90-06/07 whilst Trottier's six top 10 seasons in points all took place between 77/78-83/84. Not to say he was washed up after that but I think Sakic held up better for quite a bit longer.
     
  18. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    The downside to Taylor as far as I'm concerned is that his offensive prime is actually quite short. He was dominant for 5 years, but not even close otherwise, right? I realize things are confounded by him starting his career as a defenseman.
     
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  19. Captain Bowie Registered User

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    Surprised to see Bossy, but expected the rest of the new eligibles.
     
  20. ResilientBeast ATD Draft Czar

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    Ultimately yes, I like to throw in a 6th season since he suffered a freak appendicitis that nearly killed him, but in terms of full seasons played he had 5 in the PCHA as well as what ever value you'd give for his time in the NHA and ECAHA as a point/cover point. (Finishes given below)

    Additionally, his PCHA career was at ages 30+ which I think is relevant, of players in this time he aged well.

    2x 2nd in NHA Points Among Defensemen
    2nd in ECAHA Points Among Defensemen, 06-07
    3rd in ECAHA Points Among Defensemen, 07-08

    *I think the finishes themselves are from Dreakmur's consolidation project* For those that were unaware a poster here attempt to normalize scoring and assist rates between the PCHA/NHA/NHL/WCHL to gauge the relative scoring between players in different leagues. There are a load of caveats with this method.

    1913 - 2nd in Assists, 9th in Points
    1914 - 6th in Goals, 1st in Assists, 4th in Points
    1915 - 1st in Assists, 2nd in Points
    1916 - 2nd in Goals, 1st in Assists. 1st in Points
    1917 (Appendicitis) would be 3rd in Points
    1918 - 1st in Goals, 2nd in Assists, 1st in Points
    1919 - 1st in Goals, 1st in Assists, 1st in Points
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
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  21. The Macho King World Champion*

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    Quick Q - when you say "2nd in assists", what are the numbers here? Because a lot of time you could be "1st in assists" with like... 9 assists.
     
  22. ResilientBeast ATD Draft Czar

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    1913 all players were still in single digits and Taylor had 8
    1914 Taylor was one of two players in double digits with 15 (4 ahead of the leader)
    1915 Taylor doubled teammate McKay (in 2nd) and had 22 for the lead

    You need to remember we're talking about a sample size of ~20 games

    We're also talking about a split league situation so those finishes are not directly comparable to modern post 1926 finishes
     
  23. MXD Original #4

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    ... I don't even hate Bossy THAT much at this juncture (I really dislike that he's available before Cook, however...), honestly.
     
  24. BenchBrawl joueur de hockey

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    1915 Stanley Cup Finals

    VANCOUVER MILLIONAIRES VS. OTTAWA SENATORS

    Cyclone Taylor was 30 years old, Frank Nighbor 22 years old.Both finished with 10 points.


    Game 1: Vancouver Daily World, 23 Mar 1915 (6-2 Win)

    Lineups

    Vancouver-----TEAM-----Ottawa
    Lehman-----Goalie-----Benedict
    Patrick-----Point-----Merrill
    Cook-----Coverpoint-----Ross
    Taylor-----Rover-----Gerard
    MacKay-----Center-----Duford
    Nighbor-----RW-----Broadbent
    Stanley-----LW-----Graham

    Frank Nighbor was the bright and shining light of the forward line, although "Cyclone" Taylor's work is not to be underrated.The local wing displayed great speed and stick handled in a manner which brought forth expression of admiration from the fans.He was more than a match for Darragh and was especially good on defensive work.

    Game 2: Vancouver Daily World, 25 Mar 1915 (8-3 Win)

    Lineups

    Vancouver-----TEAM-----Ottawa
    Lehman-----Goalie-----Benedict
    Patrick-----Point-----Merrill
    Cook-----Coverpoint-----Ross
    Taylor-----RW-----Broadbent
    Mackay-----Centre-----Duford
    Nighbor-----LW-----Gerard

    Frank Nighbor again demonstrated the fact that he is about the best all-around hockey player in the business.He had speed to burn last night and he seldom allowed a man to get by him.His back checking was a marvel and he swiped the rubber with his low, sweeping hook on numerous occasions.

    "Cyclone" Taylor played a grand game, his great speed and wonderful stick-handling showing to still greater advantage at the six-man game.

    Game 3: Vancouver Daily World & Ottawa Citizen, 27 Mar 1915 (12-3 Win)


    Lineups

    Vancouver-----TEAM-----Ottawa
    Lehman-----Goalie-----Benedict
    Patrick-----Point-----Merrill
    Cook-----Coverpoint-----Ross
    Taylor-----Rover-----Gerard
    Mackay-----Centre-----Darragh
    Nighbor-----RW-----Broadbent
    Stanley-----LW-----Graham

    Vancouver Daily World

    Frank Nighbor, the fastest all-around hockey player in the game today, was in the limelight all the time.His work last night was a marvel.Time and time again he would steal the puck from an opposing forward and start the forward line bustling towards Benedict.He was credited with two fine goals and assisted in the scoring four times, so that he was practically responsible for half of the goals made by his team.Frank is still one of the young players, and has ten years of good hockey in him.

    Taylor was also in brilliant form and toyed with his opponents to the delight of the crowd.He was a marked man and closely checked as usual, but was too fast for his opponents.His brilliant rushes down the ice were countless and he scored twice and assisted in notching up another.

    Ottawa Citizen (Special to The Citizen)

    Frank Patrick and his teammates played magnificient hockey.Nighbor and Stanley were the stars with Lehman as reliable as ever.Taylor was held down, but the Ottawas paid too much attention to him and let others run loose.He took things leisurely and had the honor of scoring the last goal.Nighbor, Stanley and McKay were brilliant at all times.

    VANCOUVER WINS THE STANLEY CUP! :stanley:
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  25. ImporterExporter "You're a boring old man"

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    Yeah, I think the fact that Taylor was a strong point/cover point (quasi rover) puts him in that poor man's Red Kelly range of 2 position stars. Just worked the opposite of Red, with Taylor's best work coming at C vs D, although he was pretty well regarded as a latter.
     
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