Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 6

[wetcoast]

The thing is, we have two guys up for voting this round who played on perhaps the greatest 5 man unit ever. This is what they are famous for. Playing outside of that unit, none of those players seemed close to that good. But Esposito is being hammered for not being that good without Orr.

Now I have one of those former Soviet players going in this round, so I'm not belittling their talent. Just pointing out the huge double standard. I'd also like to know how many of the Esposito detractors ranked Orr number 1. Surely someone who can turn Espo into a superstar singlehandedly simply by being on the same team (not linemates, so not always on the ice together) has to be by far the greatest player ever.

I have a little bit of time here so I will address a couple of points on the Orr affect on Esposito.

Some have asserted that in 68 Phil had a great season before Orr was Orr and that's not entirely true.

In 66-67 with the Black Hawks Phil had a 69-21-40-61 line with 2 PPG and 8 PPP good for 4th in scoring on the Black Hawks as it appears Kenny Warhamm got the 3rd forward position on the PP to go along with Mikta and Hull (Phil's ES linemate). He also had 192 SOG.



In 67-68, 2 things change, more PP time and of course Bobby Orr.

Phil has a line of 74-38-49-84 with 8 PPG and 27 PPP. He had 284 SOG (3.83/game)

Orr finished with a line 46-11-21-34 and 3 PPG and 11 PPP. Orr had 173 SOG (3.76/ game)

What's more revealing is that Orr and Phil basically had the same SOG/game ratio which is one indicator of Bobby already driving the bus, although to be sure he would driver faster and harder in the following seasons.

In 74 games Phil was on the ice for 76 ESG and 37 PPGF

In 46 games Orr was on the ice for 71 ESG and 28 PPGF

So to be clear Phil in 28 more games was on the ice for exactly 5 more ESG and 9 PPGF

To me that's a pretty good indicator that Orr was already being Orr at that point.

In following years the trend would continue to grow which bring us to Orr's final years with the Black Hawks.

In 76-77 Orr played in 20 games for the Black Hawks and had a line of 20-4-19-23 +6 going 2-12 on the PP.

He was on the ice for 22 ESGF and 20 PPGF (the Black Hawks only scored 39 PPG in the 60 games Orr didn't play in).

And this is Orr after the injuries still dominantly driving the bus in games he played in for a poor Black Hawks team.

I think that the Orr affect is extremely clear and we need to look with a critical eye towards Esposito and his "peak."

 

[wetcoast]

I think Trottier would be in even more trouble this round going from memory on Scotty's list.

Here are some guys this round as per Bowman's top 100 Canadian players of all time.

19 Terry Sawchuk
22 Glenn Hall
23 Mike Bossy
31 Joe Sakic
32 Bobby Clarke
40 Phil Esposito
48 Marty Brodeur
62 Bryan Trottier

Taylor, Makarov and Fetisov not considered as it looks like an NHL Canadian player list

He also had Gretzky 5th

Its a WOW because I'd be very surprised if anyone voting had Esposito outside of the top 50, as you would.

And if they did I'd really question why they were allowed to participate.

Maybe that's why Scotty Bowman isn't participating?

 

[seventieslord]

Bossy 23rd with Trottier 62nd is just criminal...

 

[Canadiens1958]

Bossy 23rd with Trottier 62nd is just criminal...

Reflects coaching the Canadiens against the Islanders.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Bossy 23rd with Trottier 62nd is just criminal...

Scotty had his reasons for ranking players as he did, but there is just some really off the wall type stuff IMO....

Dave Keon 12th
Roy 36th
Red Kelly 42nd
Placement of his 70's Habs defensemen which shows why coaches probably have far more biases than folks like us.
Cam bleeping Neely 50th

Just to name a handful of the oddball placements.

From a special edition of Hockey Le Magazine. 9 other lists from longtime coaches, referees, and media members were also included. But I think Bowman's is the most interesting, considering his stature in the hockey world.

1. Bobby Orr
2. Gordie Howe
3. Maurice Richard
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Wayne Gretzky
6. Doug Harvey
7. Eddie Shore
8. Howie Morenz
9. Jean Beliveau
10. Bobby Hull
11. Guy Lafleur
12. Dave Keon
13. Henri Richard
14. Mark Messier
15. Sidney Crosby
16. Raymond Bourque
17. Jacques Plante
18. Frank Mahovlich
19. Terry Sawchuk
20. Serge Savard
21. Denis Potvin
22. Glenn Hall
23. Mike Bossy
24. Dickie Moore
25. Steve Yzerman
26. Brad Park
27. Larry Robinson
28. Bernard Geoffrion
29. Norm Ullman
30. Alex Delvecchio
31. Joe Sakic
32. Bobby Clarke
33. Bob Gainey
34. Scott Niedermayer
35. Elmer Lach
36. Patrick Roy
37. Gilbert Perreault
38. Jacques Lemaire
39. Guy Lapointe
40. Phil Esposito
41. Ted Lindsay
42. Red Kelly
43. Syl Apps
44. Milt Schmidt
45. Johnny Bucyk
46. Marcel Dionne
47. Yvan Cournoyer
48. Martin Brodeur
49. Scott Stevens
50. Cam Neely
51. Jean-Claude Tremblay
52. Michel Goulet
53. Steve Shutt
54. Ken Dryden
55. Bernard Parent
56. Bert Olmstead
57. Bill Barber
58. Pierre Pilote
59. Eric Lindros
60. Darryl Sittler
61. George Armstrong
62. Bryan Trottier
63. Jonathan Toews
64. Chris Pronger
65. Tom Johnson
66. Jean Ratelle
67. Glenn Anderson
68. Paul Coffey
69. Ron Francis
70. Andy Bathgate
71. Luc Robitaille
72. Grant Fuhr
73. Red Berenson
74. Larry Murphy
75. Al MacInnis
76. Denis Savard
77. Joe Nieuwendyk
78. Billy Smith
79. Rick MacLeish
80. Martin St-Louis
81. Tim Horton
82. Jacques Laperriere
83. Tony Esposito
84. Steven Stamkos
85. Brendan Shanahan
86. Bob Pulford
87. Wendel Clark
88. Rob Blake
89. Rodrigue Gilbert
90. Guy Carbonneau
91. Shea Weber
92. Doug Gilmour
93. Johnny Bower
94. Gump Worsley
95. Ed Belfour
96. Dino Ciccarelli
97. Dick Duff
98. Drew Doughty
99. Dave Andreychuk
100. Mark Recchi

Bowman was highest on:
Serge Savard
Hall
Delvecchio
Park
Ullman
Morenz
Shore
Pilote
Barber
Tremblay
Keon
Henri Richard
Lach


Lowest on:
Gretzky
Messier
Yzerman
Brodeur
Dionne
Coffey
Trottier
Francis
Robitaille
Denis Savard
Shanahan
Gilmour
Hawerchuk
Nieuwendyk
Gartner
Oates
Iginla
McDonald
Turgeon
Fleury

 

[Sentinel]

In 67-68, 2 things change, more PP time and of course Bobby Orr.

Phil has a line of 74-38-49-84 with 8 PPG and 27 PPP. He had 284 SOG (3.83/game)

Orr finished with a line 46-11-21-34 and 3 PPG and 11 PPP. Orr had 173 SOG (3.76/ game)

What's more revealing is that Orr and Phil basically had the same SOG/game ratio which is one indicator of Bobby already driving the bus, although to be sure he would driver faster and harder in the following seasons.

In 74 games Phil was on the ice for 76 ESG and 37 PPGF

In 46 games Orr was on the ice for 71 ESG and 28 PPGF

So to be clear Phil in 28 more games was on the ice for exactly 5 more ESG and 9 PPGF

So? Why does it matter? Was Orr a better player than Esposito? Yes (although Esposito has him beat for some Harts). But you are not comparing Espo to Orr. You are comparing Espo to Clarke. Their careers perfectly correlated, and Esposito was a better player. The Summit Series is especially telling (no Orr). Esposito drove that bus nearly start to finish. What has Clarke done, except The Slash? Sure, that influenced the outcome of the series, but... seriously?

 

[ImporterExporter]

Reflects coaching the Canadiens against the Islanders.

He would have barely coached against Bossy while he was the HC of the Habs though....right? I believe Bossy came into the league in Bowman's final season coaching Montreal, or 2nd to last.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

He would have barely coached against Bossy while he was the HC of the Habs though....right? I believe Bossy came into the league in Bowman's final season coaching Montreal, or 2nd to last.

scotty did however coach trottier, during his life falling into the toilet/reportedly contemplating suicide years. maybe that explains it?

 

[wetcoast]

So? Why does it matter? Was Orr a better player than Esposito? Yes (although Esposito has him beat for some Harts).

Esposito was never a better player in their collective time in Boston, Hart results without any analysis is just plain weak and perhaps a bit lazy as well.

But you are not comparing Espo to Orr. You are comparing Espo to Clarke. Their careers perfectly correlated, and Esposito was a better player.

Earlier in this thread there was a post by 70slord (sorry no idea how to highlight a name here) showing Clarke's ESGF and ESGA in which it was clear he was driving the bus at his peak, something Phil never did.

Just for fun, can you name the best Dman on Philly during Clarke's peak?

I don't even need to know your answer to say that that player isn't even a top 100 Defensman of all time never mind in serious consideration for #1 player of all time in Orr.

The Summit Series is especially telling (no Orr). Esposito drove that bus nearly start to finish. What has Clarke done, except The Slash? Sure, that influenced the outcome of the series, but... seriously?

If 8 games were the be all and end all Henderson would be in the HHOF but there is a reason he isn't.

To be fair though Phil did have a great statistical series but the Canadian team was expected to win all 8 games going into that series.

 

[wetcoast]

scotty did however coach trottier, during his life falling into the toilet/reportedly contemplating suicide years. maybe that explains it?

Ranking Trottier 62 just can't be explained in any rational way IMO.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Ranking Trottier 62 just can't be explained in any rational way IMO.

not gonna disagree with that. it’s bonkers.

 

[ImporterExporter]

scotty did however coach trottier, during his life falling into the toilet/reportedly contemplating suicide years. maybe that explains it?

Well that would be a shitty way to evaluate a player/person.

Trots was on his last legs as a player in Pittsburgh. Still was viewed as a huge leader in that locker room (I'm a Pittsburgh fan and pretty well versed on their history) and valued bottom 6 center. It was no secret Scotty was more or less hated by the stars on the Pens. Mario had some serious ego and work ethic issues and clashed with Bowman. Jagr was a kid and full of himself. I'm not surprised Bowman walked after 93. I've often wondered if those Pittsburgh teams would have done better under Badger Bob who seemed to gel with the roster much, much more. The Pens had the talent to win more than 2 Cups even through the mid 90's.

 

[Sentinel]

Esposito was never a better player in their collective time in Boston, Hart results without any analysis is just plain weak and perhaps a bit lazy as well.

It's still better than your analysis that brings you to a conclusion that Phil Frigging Esposito is not a Top 50 player! I'll stick to Hart's, thank you very much.

Earlier in this thread there was a post by 70slord (sorry no idea how to highlight a name here) showing Clarke's ESGF and ESGA in which it was clear he was driving the bus at his peak, something Phil never did.

He drove the bus for Team Canada, which is something Clarke never did.

Just for fun, can you name the best Dman on Philly during Clarke's peak?

Who cares? Can you tell me the highest goal total for Clarke?

If 8 games were the be all and end all Henderson would be in the HHOF but there is a reason he isn't.

To be fair though Phil did have a great statistical series but the Canadian team was expected to win all 8 games going into that series.

Again, who cares who was "expected to win"? On a team full of all stars Phil Esposito was the biggest star, and Clarke was the biggest travesty.

 

[Canadiens1958]

He would have barely coached against Bossy while he was the HC of the Habs though....right? I believe Bossy came into the league in Bowman's final season coaching Montreal, or 2nd to last.

First two Bossy seasons were Bowman's last two coaching Montreal.

 

[Captain Bowie]

So? Why does it matter? Was Orr a better player than Esposito? Yes (although Esposito has him beat for some Harts). But you are not comparing Espo to Orr. You are comparing Espo to Clarke. Their careers perfectly correlated, and Esposito was a better player. The Summit Series is especially telling (no Orr). Esposito drove that bus nearly start to finish. What has Clarke done, except The Slash? Sure, that influenced the outcome of the series, but... seriously?

Actually he was comparing Phil to Bernie Nicholls...

If 8 games were the be all and end all Henderson would be in the HHOF but there is a reason he isn't.

Who came close to saying that? That is a textbook strawman argument and you know it. You still haven't brought any data that indicates Phil is on even ground with Nicholls, or whatever exactly your comparison was.

 

[Batis]

The thing is, we have two guys up for voting this round who played on perhaps the greatest 5 man unit ever. This is what they are famous for. Playing outside of that unit, none of those players seemed close to that good. But Esposito is being hammered for not being that good without Orr.

Now I have one of those former Soviet players going in this round, so I'm not belittling their talent. Just pointing out the huge double standard. I'd also like to know how many of the Esposito detractors ranked Orr number 1. Surely someone who can turn Espo into a superstar singlehandedly simply by being on the same team (not linemates, so not always on the ice together) has to be by far the greatest player ever.

While I agree with you that Esposito at times seems to get overly punished for the Orr-effect on his career I also want to again point out that Makarov had achivied much success before the Green Unit was formed. Makarovs 79/80 season is for example up there among his very best seasons. And while Fetisov did not have as much success before the Green Unit was formed he had already been voted the top defenceman in the SPOTY-voting one time in 77/78.

Makarov who just had turned 23 when the unit was formed had already won 2 Soviet League scoring titles, 1 Soviet League goalscoring title, 1 Soviet player of the year award (plus 3 times top-4 in the voting), 1 Izvestia golden stick award (plus 3 times top-4 in the voting), 3 first team Soviet all-star selections, 1 WHC Directorate best forward award, 2 WHC first team all-star selections and 1 time WHC goalscoring leader.

Fetisov who also recently had turned 23 had 1 WHC best defenceman award, 1 WHC first team all-star selection, 2 first team Soviet all-star selections and had once finished 3rd in the Soviet player of the year voting in 77/78.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

For the first time so far, I'll drop one player from the previous round.

Aw, Hell-- that's old hat for me. Couldn't do it in Round 1. Chose not to do it in Round 2. Did it (in vain) in Round Three. Didn't do it in Round Four. Did it (in vain) in Round 5. Doing it again this Round. Might not be in vain, this time. Over half of the new candidates deserve breveting consideration. Even the ones that don't have an argument for staying out of the basement.

 

[wetcoast]

It's still better than your analysis that brings you to a conclusion that Phil Frigging Esposito is not a Top 50 player! I'll stick to Hart's, thank you very much.

Let's look at Hart results

Esposito 1,1,2,2,3,6
Clarke 1,1,1,2,4,6,6,8,10

Take away duplicates we are left with

Phil 2,3
Bobby 1,4,6,8,10

I guess Clarke is much higher on your list than Phil right?

For the record I think that Hart counting isn't very valuable in the late 60's and early 70's and I think this board agrees in that Orr was in the first round and both Esposito and Clarke are still up for voting.

He drove the bus for Team Canada, which is something Clarke never did.

Sure he scored more points but he was a lofty plus 2 (as was Clarke) there was no Orr like bus driving on that team.

Clarke has the non stat slashing on Kharlamov as well which sure didn't hurt Canada's chances of winning.

Who cares? Can you tell me the highest goal total for Clarke?

So in other words, the fact that Andre Dupont, Tom Bladon, Larry Goodenough and Joe Watson pale in comparison you go to kaos mode and bring up clarke's highest goal total?

Clarke BTW scored 37 goals in 72-73 which was 16th overall in a 14 team league.

Phil's best effort without Orr was 42 goals in 78-79 which was good for 8th in the NHL that year.

So I guess it's official Esposito was a better goal scorer than Clarke.

If we play that game with defensive play Phil wouldn't even show up on the needle but why look at the whole picture?

Again, who cares who was "expected to win"? On a team full of all stars Phil Esposito was the biggest star, and Clarke was the biggest travesty.

Not sure how being 3rd in scoring on that team makes Clarke the biggest travesty when the claim for Phil is strictly counting stats?

Even if you believe this, are 8 games going to trump the Hart voters that you trust so much?

 

[wetcoast]

Actually he was comparing Phil to Bernie Nicholls...


Who came close to saying that? That is a textbook strawman argument and you know it. You still haven't brought any data that indicates Phil is on even ground with Nicholls, or whatever exactly your comparison was.

My assertion was that Esposito was an all offense, didn't bring much else type of scorer like Bernie Nicolls without Orr.

Bernie's first 7 years without Gretzky he was 22nd in NHL scoring in a 21 team league.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

I'll be generous to Phil and take out his rookie season.

In the 3 years Phil was 7th in NHL scoring in a 6 team league

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Being 22nd in a 21 team league looks an awfull like being 7th in a 6 team league to me.

And that's with Phil playing with Hull at ES.

At least Nicolls led the Kings in scoring.

Post Orr he does better finishing 11th from 75-79 in a 17 team league with some top players in the WHA and virtually zero players from Europe to compete with.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Bernie post Gretzky finishes 39th in scoring in a 21 team league from 89-96 and it doesn't look at good as Phil's 11th on the surface.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...points&c1comp=gt&threshhold=5&order_by=points

But when we account for the WHA and North American talent that Phil didn't compete with and the fact that 12 of the players ahead of Bernie came from the emerging US and European talent that poured into the league after the WHA folded the gap lessons.

So in a nutshell my assertion that Bernie and Phil are pretty similar players without Orr and Gretzky looks pretty good.

At least I made the case, unlike the Fetisov one by another poster earlier.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

While I agree with you that Esposito at times seems to get overly punished for the Orr-effect on his career I also want to again point out that Makarov had achivied much success before the Green Unit was formed. Makarovs 79/80 season is for example up there among his very best seasons. And while Fetisov did not have as much success before the Green Unit was formed he had already been voted the top defenceman in the SPOTY-voting one time in 77/78.

Thanks for that, you know so much more about the Soviet players. Good to have someone with your knowledge of them. As I said, it wasn't a put down of the great Russian players. I felt pretty sure Makarov would be outstanding wherever he played and should have gone in even before this round. Just the double standard compared to Esposito.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I have a little bit of time here so I will address a couple of points on the Orr affect on Esposito.

Some have asserted that in 68 Phil had a great season before Orr was Orr and that's not entirely true.

In 66-67 with the Black Hawks Phil had a 69-21-40-61 line with 2 PPG and 8 PPP good for 4th in scoring on the Black Hawks as it appears Kenny Warhamm got the 3rd forward position on the PP to go along with Mikta and Hull (Phil's ES linemate). He also had 192 SOG.



In 67-68, 2 things change, more PP time and of course Bobby Orr.

Phil has a line of 74-38-49-84 with 8 PPG and 27 PPP. He had 284 SOG (3.83/game)

Orr finished with a line 46-11-21-34 and 3 PPG and 11 PPP. Orr had 173 SOG (3.76/ game)

What's more revealing is that Orr and Phil basically had the same SOG/game ratio which is one indicator of Bobby already driving the bus, although to be sure he would driver faster and harder in the following seasons.

In 74 games Phil was on the ice for 76 ESG and 37 PPGF

In 46 games Orr was on the ice for 71 ESG and 28 PPGF

So to be clear Phil in 28 more games was on the ice for exactly 5 more ESG and 9 PPGF

To me that's a pretty good indicator that Orr was already being Orr at that point.

In following years the trend would continue to grow which bring us to Orr's final years with the Black Hawks.

In 76-77 Orr played in 20 games for the Black Hawks and had a line of 20-4-19-23 +6 going 2-12 on the PP.

He was on the ice for 22 ESGF and 20 PPGF (the Black Hawks only scored 39 PPG in the 60 games Orr didn't play in).

And this is Orr after the injuries still dominantly driving the bus in games he played in for a poor Black Hawks team.

I think that the Orr affect is extremely clear and we need to look with a critical eye towards Esposito and his "peak."

If your point is that Orr was the driving force of those Boston teams, you're not bring anything new to the discussion.

 

[wetcoast]

If your point is that Orr was the driving force of those Boston teams, you're not bring anything new to the discussion.

I think that the point was how much of an affect Orr had on his teams and Esposito.

If that was the only point about Phil it would be one thing but we also have his extremely poor playoffs with the Black Hawks, the guy he got traded for outscoring him after the trade despite being 2 years older and pretty horrible defensive play as well.

 

[bobholly39]

My assertion was that Esposito was an all offense, didn't bring much else type of scorer like Bernie Nicolls without Orr.

Bernie's first 7 years without Gretzky he was 22nd in NHL scoring in a 21 team league.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

I'll be generous to Phil and take out his rookie season.

In the 3 years Phil was 7th in NHL scoring in a 6 team league

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Being 22nd in a 21 team league looks an awfull like being 7th in a 6 team league to me.

And that's with Phil playing with Hull at ES.

At least Nicolls led the Kings in scoring.

Post Orr he does better finishing 11th from 75-79 in a 17 team league with some top players in the WHA and virtually zero players from Europe to compete with.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Bernie post Gretzky finishes 39th in scoring in a 21 team league from 89-96 and it doesn't look at good as Phil's 11th on the surface.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

But when we account for the WHA and North American talent that Phil didn't compete with and the fact that 12 of the players ahead of Bernie came from the emerging US and European talent that poured into the league after the WHA folded the gap lessons.

So in a nutshell my assertion that Bernie and Phil are pretty similar players without Orr and Gretzky looks pretty good.

At least I made the case, unlike the Fetisov one by another poster earlier.

You do realize that if Nichols had 7 150 point seasons instead of 1 - even if Gretzky was the consensus main reason why and even if Gretzky topped him in points every one of those years - he'd likely *still* already be up for voting?

 

[bobholly39]

I have a little bit of time here so I will address a couple of points on the Orr affect on Esposito.

Some have asserted that in 68 Phil had a great season before Orr was Orr and that's not entirely true.

In 66-67 with the Black Hawks Phil had a 69-21-40-61 line with 2 PPG and 8 PPP good for 4th in scoring on the Black Hawks as it appears Kenny Warhamm got the 3rd forward position on the PP to go along with Mikta and Hull (Phil's ES linemate). He also had 192 SOG.



In 67-68, 2 things change, more PP time and of course Bobby Orr.

Phil has a line of 74-38-49-84 with 8 PPG and 27 PPP. He had 284 SOG (3.83/game)

Orr finished with a line 46-11-21-34 and 3 PPG and 11 PPP. Orr had 173 SOG (3.76/ game)

What's more revealing is that Orr and Phil basically had the same SOG/game ratio which is one indicator of Bobby already driving the bus, although to be sure he would driver faster and harder in the following seasons.

In 74 games Phil was on the ice for 76 ESG and 37 PPGF

In 46 games Orr was on the ice for 71 ESG and 28 PPGF

So to be clear Phil in 28 more games was on the ice for exactly 5 more ESG and 9 PPGF

To me that's a pretty good indicator that Orr was already being Orr at that point.

In following years the trend would continue to grow which bring us to Orr's final years with the Black Hawks.

In 76-77 Orr played in 20 games for the Black Hawks and had a line of 20-4-19-23 +6 going 2-12 on the PP.

He was on the ice for 22 ESGF and 20 PPGF (the Black Hawks only scored 39 PPG in the 60 games Orr didn't play in).

And this is Orr after the injuries still dominantly driving the bus in games he played in for a poor Black Hawks team.

I think that the Orr affect is extremely clear and we need to look with a critical eye towards Esposito and his "peak."

Since when do points not matter - and driving the bus matters more?

I mean no one here is arguing that Phil Esposito should rank above Bobby Orr. But Esposito scored all those points. That's what matters. It doesn't matter if you think Orr is the sole reason why he did (he isn't) - scoring all those points and breaking all those records and destroying the league scoring all those years needs to count for a lot, on its own.

Esposito should absolutely go this round. I have him at #1.

 

[Sentinel]

Let's look at Hart results

Esposito 1,1,2,2,3,6
Clarke 1,1,1,2,4,6,6,8,10

Take away duplicates we are left with

Phil 2,3
Bobby 1,4,6,8,10

I guess Clarke is much higher on your list than Phil right?

For the record I think that Hart counting isn't very valuable in the late 60's and early 70's and I think this board agrees in that Orr was in the first round and both Esposito and Clarke are still up for voting.

On one hand, you are saying Esposito is a product of Orr, but on the other hand completely dismiss the fact that having Orr on your team, makes it twice as hard to win the Hart. The fact that Espo WON TWO HARTS OVER A GENERATIONAL PHENOM like Orr is much more impressive than Clarke's Harts, where he was the only true star on his team.

Sure he scored more points but he was a lofty plus 2 (as was Clarke) there was no Orr like bus driving on that team.

So when a famous offense-only forward gets the same +/- as a famous two-way player, while handily outscoring him, it is somehow a detriment to the former? Are you for real?

Clarke has the non stat slashing on Kharlamov as well which sure didn't hurt Canada's chances of winning.

So you are citing this all-time famous act of unsportsmanship and cheating as a boost to Clarke? Are you for real?

Clarke BTW scored 37 goals in 72-73 which was 16th overall in a 14 team league.

So, less than HALF of Esposito's highest. Ni-i-ice.

So I guess it's official Esposito was a better goal scorer than Clarke.

Yeah, a tiny bit better.

Phil's best effort without Orr was 42 goals in 78-79 which was good for 8th in the NHL that year.

His entire prime was with Orr. Are you for real? A post-prime, Rangers Espo still did better than Clarke's high water mark season.

If we play that game with defensive play Phil wouldn't even show up on the needle but why look at the whole picture?

Why would Espo play defense, if he had Orr?

Not sure how being 3rd in scoring on that team makes Clarke the biggest travesty when the claim for Phil is strictly counting stats?

No. The Slash was the biggest travesty.

Even if you believe this, are 8 games going to trump the Hart voters that you trust so much?

Because you keep bringing up Orr and other teammates. Those "8 games" (the biggest games of their respective careers) is where their team was one and the same, and Esposito thumped Clarke handily. If not for The Slash, which in many people's minds STOLE the victory from Canada ("couldn't win without goonery and cheating, could they?"), nobody would even remember Clarke.