Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 6

[MXD]

Ahead of Bossy by a landslide. I feel Bossy is more comparable to Ted Lindsay.

Weren't the results lost? Or you're just going by memory?

 

[ResilientBeast]

1915 Stanley Cup Finals

VANCOUVER MILLIONAIRES VS. OTTAWA SENATORS

Game 1: Vancouver Daily World, 23 Mar 1915 (6-2 Win)

Lineups

Vancouver-----TEAM-----Ottawa
Lehman-----Goalie-----Benedict
Patrick-----Point-----Merrill
Cook-----Coverpoint-----Ross
Taylor-----Rover-----Gerard
MacKay-----Center-----Duford
Nighbor-----RW-----Broadbent
Stanley-----LW-----Graham

Frank Nighbor was the bright and shining light of the forward line, although "Cyclone" Taylor's work is not to be underrated.The local wing displayed great speed and stick handled in a manner which brought forth expression of admiration from the fans.He was more than a match for Darragh and was especially good on defensive work.

Game 2: Vancouver Daily World, 25 Mar 1915 (8-3 Win)

Lineups

Vancouver-----TEAM-----Ottawa
Lehman-----Goalie-----Benedict
Patrick-----Point-----Merrill
Cook-----Coverpoint-----Ross
Taylor-----RW-----Broadbent
Mackay-----Centre-----Duford
Nighbor-----LW-----Gerard

Frank Nighbor again demonstrated the fact that he is about the best all-around hockey player in the business.He had speed to burn last night and he seldom allowed a man to get by him.His back checking was a marvel and he swiped the rubber with his low, sweeping hook on numerous occasions.

"Cyclone" Taylor played a grand game, his great speed and wonderful stick-handling showing to still greater advantage at the six-man game.

Game 3: Vancouver Daily World & Ottawa Citizen, 27 Mar 1915 (12-3 Win)

Lineups

Vancouver-----TEAM-----Ottawa
Lehman-----Goalie-----Benedict
Patrick-----Point-----Merrill
Cook-----Coverpoint-----Ross
Taylor-----Rover-----Gerard
Mackay-----Centre-----Darragh
Nighbor-----RW-----Broadbent
Stanley-----LW-----Graham

Vancouver Daily World

Frank Nighbor, the fastest all-around hockey player in the game today, was in the limelight all the time.His work last night was a marvel.Time and time again he would steal the puck from an opposing forward and start the forward line bustling towards Benedict.He was credited with two fine goals and assisted in the scoring four times, so that he was practically responsible for half of the goals made by his team.Frank is still one of the young players, and has ten years of good hockey in him.

Taylor was also in brilliant form and toyed with his opponents to the delight of the crowd.He was a marked man and closely checked as usual, but was too fast for his opponents.His brilliant rushes down the ice were countless and he scored twice and assisted in notching up another.

Ottawa Citizen (Special to The Citizen)

Frank Patrick and his teammates played magnificient hockey.Nighbor and Stanley were the stars with Lehman as reliable as ever.Taylor was held down, but the Ottawas paid too much attention to him and let others run loose.He took things leisurely and had the honor of scoring the last goal.Nighbor, Stanley and McKay were brilliant at all times.

VANCOUVER WINS THE STANLEY CUP!

Great summary

For reference Nighbor is 22 years old and Taylor is 30 in this season

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Other than Sakic standing ahead of Robinson... I called it.

Yeah, I'm disappointed that Bossy's nominated before Bill Cook... but I'm surely not surprised. Except for that, some generally nice nominations- and a couple of candidates for "field promotions," I'd say.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Great summary

For reference Nighbor is 22 years old and Taylor is 30 in this season

I'll edit to add some minor info, this was from my mega Nighbor posts.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Weren't the results lost? Or you're just going by memory?

Memory...

Though I have some of the results of the old projects available in old excel files that I really need to dig up. We were storing ALL of them in a yahoo! account (lol we're old), but I doubt anyone has been opening that account often enough to keep it from being closed.

 

[seventieslord]

Memory...

Though I have some of the results of the old projects available in old excel files that I really need to dig up. We were storing ALL of them in a yahoo! account (lol we're old), but I doubt anyone has been opening that account often enough to keep it from being closed.

I'm pretty sure I still know the login, are you saying I should try?

 

[ted2019]

Sakic's longevity must be considered much better than Trottier's, no?... He scored 100 pts as a 37-year old and finished 6th in points. His ten top 10 seasons in points took place between 89/90-06/07 whilst Trottier's six top 10 seasons in points all took place between 77/78-83/84. Not to say he was washed up after that but I think Sakic held up better for quite a bit longer.

I personally have Sakic over Trottier and that's before the 8 playoff OT goals, which puts him #1 all time.

 

[The Macho King]

I personally have Sakic over Trottier and that's before the 8 playoff OT goals, which puts him #1 all time.

8 playoff OT goals is one of those "cute" stats. It requires so many factors outside of the players control.

Also - I would hazard a guess OT was more common in the DPE (with lower scoring overall, ergo fewer events, which increases the likelihood of a tie at the end of regulation) than it would be prior.

 

[MXD]

8 playoff OT goals is one of those "cute" stats. It requires so many factors outside of the players control.

Also - I would hazard a guess OT was more common in the DPE (with lower scoring overall, ergo fewer events, which increases the likelihood of a tie at the end of regulation) than it would be prior.

Well, the prior holder of the record was Maurice Richard, who was well over 70 when the DPE started. Scores weren't even spectacularily low during the DPE. But it was the first time we had the combo of low scoring + four playoffs rounds for everyone.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Yeah, I think the fact that Taylor was a strong point/cover point (quasi rover) puts him in that poor man's Red Kelly range of 2 position stars. Just worked the opposite of Red, with Taylor's best work coming at C vs D, although he was pretty well regarded as a latter.

That's a really good way to think of it IMO.

Additionally for those that question his all around game (this comes up a lot in ATD so I may as well address it here)

If there is a need for more quotes, I can dip back into the archives

Taylor was a generally clean (compared to era player) but when provoked has some documented evidence of violence

Instances of physical play

Taylor isn't remembered as a physical player, but here are three different instances of him playing "rough," two of them from earlier in his career when he played coverpoint (defenseman). I don't think these make Taylor particularly physical in an all-time sense, but he is definitely no softy.

Just one game, but it seems Taylor was a difference-maker defensively all game:

Taylor, who was on the line the night the team was beaten in Quebec (TDMM - I assume this means at forward), was in Moore's position at cover point, increasing the efficiency of the defence about 50 percent. He was ruled off 4 times in the game, twice for heavy bodychecking and twice for slashing Wanderer forwards over the arms. His play, while on the rough side, was very effective; he was a hard man to get by and towards the end he stirred up the crowd by lightning rushes from end to end of the rink. He scored Ottawa's sixth and seventh goal on such dashes and was also responsible for the twelth, although Phillips landed the disc in the twine.

With Taylor off, the Wanderer forwards found it easier to work in on the Otttawa defence...

Taylor made it 11 to 1 on an end to end run and a pretty shot. Taylor immediately after the face repeated the run and Phillips scored from the rebound of Taylor's shot.

Taylor brought the crowd to their feet by stealing the disc from Hooper at the Ottawa end and going through the whole Wanderer team for Ottawa's sixth goal. Taylor went in and out through Glass and Ross and taking his time picked out the open corner of the net.

The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search

Taylor noted as particularly rough, even for the era. Again, just one game:

The trouble came after the referee had been obliged to order off the ice for palpably rough play Taylor, Walsh and Lake, all of the Ottawa team. Taylor had been particularly conspicuous for rough work, and Russell promptly ordered him out of the game for good.

The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search

He supplied the only "rough stuff" of the game when he made a vicious attack with his stick on Meeking as the latter was lying on the ice. The Toronto boy in checking Taylor, fell and his stick caught "Cyclone" on the back. He left the puck and twice hit the fallen player with his stick. Randall went to Meeking's rescue and both he and Taylor exchanged jabs.

The Calgary Daily Herald - Google News Archive Search

Note Taylor is 33, Mackay is 23

Taylor is fast, a beautiful skater and handles the puck fairly well but it is extremely doubtful if he has any more speed than Noble or Cameron. McKay who played on the forward line is a much faster skater, carries the puck better and is much more persistent than "Cyclone"

In fact it was the consensus of the opinion after the game that McKay was much the faster man and more effective than Taylor. Cook and Griffis are both fast men, but the showing of Stanley was very disappointing. He was outclassed at times and resorted to questionable tactics on several occasions.

Taylor Loses His Head

The play on the whole however was fairly clean, on;y one incident marring the game. In the final period Taylor who was ineffective all night was checked by Meeking, the latter falling to the ice after he had blocked the Westerner. Taylor angered at the persistence of Meeking in checking turned raised his stick and struck the (word) player. Randall skated over quickly to intervene and Taylor and he exchanged several punches before they were separated...

Now for his defensive play, reading the quotes it comes across somewhat like how we talked about Bobby Orr. He was "good defensively" because he had the puck all the time and would rag it past the opposing team.

"Cyclone" Taylor, the star center of the Vancouver club of the Pacific Coast Hockey association, has been voted the all-around individual championship of the PCHA, for the 1917-18 season, according to an announcement by Frank Patrick, president of the organization.

The official scorers of Seattle, Vancouver and Portland voted on the most valuable player in the league and Taylor was the unanimous choice. "Cyclone" is far ahead of his nearest rival in scoring honors and will probably maintain an edge through the final series next week.

Taylor's defensive play was also exceptionally strong. Last season Frank Foyston of the Seattle club was voted the most valuable individual in the league. Another important point in Taylor's favor was the fact that not once during the season was the star sent from the ice for violation of rules.

Spokane Daily Chronicle - Google News Archive Search

Taylor for the first ten of twelve minutes of the game, gave one of his finest displays in the coast hockey, outplaying the entire Seattle team and having possession of the rubber for about three quarters of the time.

Vancouver missed Mickey MacKay its star who was crippled in a recent Seattle game. With MacKay out, Cyclone Taylor and his teammates could not stop the peppering Seattle game the Canadian basket. Taylor led his team in a great defensive fight. He had the puck for longer period than any of the visitors and helped the score.

The Easterners scored three goals in this period and westerns one and with the scored tied in the final the excitement was intense. Shore (cover) was benched for tripping in the thd and Taylor, who took his place was mainly responsible for the victory. He came on the ice in time to stop a dangerous western rush and went right through the opposing defense single handily before passing back to Ross for the leading goal. Right after this he went down again and gave Darragh another chance which was accepted.

His blazing speed dazzled both players and fans alike, and when he used it to dominate the game, scoring five goals in his very first game in the league, it was reported that the governor general turned to his aide and commented, "They should call that man the Cyclone-his speed blew the other team out of the rink."

The rover's place on the ice wasn't clearly defined, but like a centreman, his responsibilities encompassed essentially the entire sheet of ice. Cyclone Taylor was truly one of the best. In fact, some long time sportswriters consider Taylor to be hockey's first superstar. From 1900 to 1918, he was named to the First All Star Team of every league in which he played.

http://books.google.com/books?id=geu3FrdUBaYC&pg=PA135&dq=cyclone+taylor&hl=en&sa=X&ei=f7UCUb2KMMm30AGWioGIDQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=cyclone taylor&f=false

 

[sr edler]

Vancouver-----TEAM-----Ottawa
Lehman-----Goalie-----Benedict
Patrick-----Point-----Merrill
Cook-----Coverpoint-----Ross
Taylor-----Rover-----Gerard
MacKay-----Center-----Duford
Nighbor-----RW-----Broadbent
Stanley-----LW-----Graham

No wonder Ottawa got crushed, look at that depth discrepancy. Angus Duford and Leth Graham against MacKay/Stanley? P-lease.

 

[ImporterExporter]

No wonder Ottawa got crushed, look at that depth discrepancy. Angus Duford and Leth Graham against MacKay/Stanley? P-lease.

Isn't it funny that a few years later Ottawa would then become a dominant, deep, dynasty....with Nighbor.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I personally have Sakic over Trottier and that's before the 8 playoff OT goals, which puts him #1 all time.

In my initial top 120 I had Trottier two ahead of Sakic. However, upon further review of their resumes, I may have erred. I think I gave too much credence to Trottier's one Art Ross over Sakic's steadier top 10 finishes. I also always liked Trottier's physical play, but I also liked Sakic's clutch play and coolness under pressure.

This could be a duo that flip-flops for me this week. Right now I'm leaning more towards Sakic.

 

[bobholly39]

8 playoff OT goals is one of those "cute" stats. It requires so many factors outside of the players control.

Also - I would hazard a guess OT was more common in the DPE (with lower scoring overall, ergo fewer events, which increases the likelihood of a tie at the end of regulation) than it would be prior.

Yeah. Clutchiness is a great thing - and very valuable trait - but this is still only 8 goals.

Someone has to be #1 all time - i personally never found the OT playoff goal leader thing to be all that significant. It's not a bad thing - i just don't consider it as big a positive as I expect others do/will.

Roy's playoff OT record? Sure - much more than 8 games worth. If you want to talk about Sakic's overall impact in OT playoff games outside of just goals scored? Sure - that might be a very strong point if there's enough data. 8 goals is still 8 goals though.

 

[BenchBrawl]

All this is true (Nighbor and Taylor), but I don't get the impression that Nighbor dragged Taylor into a Stanley Cup win neither.Both were more or less co-MVPs, and Taylor deserves credit on his own for the 1915 win.

Observe the commentary on Game 3:

Vancouver Daily World

Frank Nighbor, the fastest all-around hockey player in the game today, was in the limelight all the time.His work last night was a marvel.Time and time again he would steal the puck from an opposing forward and start the forward line bustling towards Benedict.He was credited with two fine goals and assisted in the scoring four times, so that he was practically responsible for half of the goals made by his team.Frank is still one of the young players, and has ten years of good hockey in him.

Taylor was also in brilliant form and toyed with his opponents to the delight of the crowd.He was a marked man and closely checked as usual, but was too fast for his opponents.His brilliant rushes down the ice were countless and he scored twice and assisted in notching up another.

Ottawa Citizen (Special to The Citizen)

Frank Patrick and his teammates played magnificient hockey.Nighbor and Stanley were the stars with Lehman as reliable as ever.Taylor was held down, but the Ottawas paid too much attention to him and let others run loose.He took things leisurely and had the honor of scoring the last goal.Nighbor, Stanley and McKay were brilliant at all times.

 

[ResilientBeast]

No wonder Ottawa got crushed, look at that depth discrepancy. Angus Duford and Leth Graham against MacKay/Stanley? P-lease.

Then compare to the finals in 1921 Game 3

Lehman-----Goalie-----Benedict
Cook-----Point-----Gerard
Duncan-----Coverpoint-----Boucher
Mackay-----Rover-----Cleghorn
Taylor-----Center-----Nighbor
Adams -----RW-----Denneny
Harris -----LW-----Darragh

The pendulum had firmly swung the other way, hard​

 

[DannyGallivan]

8 playoff OT goals is one of those "cute" stats. It requires so many factors outside of the players control.

It is one element that can point to clutch players. Being the hero when it counts the most.
And since it's a team game, played against another team, most players usually have to rise to the occasion using the cards dealt to them on any particular shift.

 

[The Macho King]

Yeah. Clutchiness is a great thing - and very valuable trait - but this is still only 8 goals.

Someone has to be #1 all time - i personally never found the OT playoff goal leader thing to be all that significant. It's not a bad thing - i just don't consider it as big a positive as I expect others do/will.

Roy's playoff OT record? Sure - much more than 8 games worth. If you want to talk about Sakic's overall impact in OT playoff games outside of just goals scored? Sure - that might be a very strong point if there's enough data. 8 goals is still 8 goals though.

The thing I'll say about Roy's OT record is (while I think it is insanely overrated), the goalie is much more in a position to control the outcome of an OT than a random skater.

 

[DannyGallivan]

The thing I'll say about Roy's OT record is (while I think it is insanely overrated), the goalie is much more in a position to control the outcome of an OT than a random skater.

Only if he lets in a weak goal. Goaltenders are very dependent on the defensive play of their entire team.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Then compare to the finals in 1921 Game 3

Lehman-----Goalie-----Benedict
Cook-----Point-----Gerard
Duncan-----Coverpoint-----Boucher
Mackay-----Rover-----Cleghorn
Taylor-----Center-----Nighbor
Adams -----RW-----Denneny
Harris -----LW-----Darragh

The pendulum had firmly swung the other way, hard​

True but Vancouver is still a hell of a team on paper.But Taylor was old by then.The Duncan-Cook pairing was monstruous in general, and no doubt an all-time great pairing.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Yeah. Clutchiness is a great thing - and very valuable trait - but this is still only 8 goals.

Someone has to be #1 all time - i personally never found the OT playoff goal leader thing to be all that significant. It's not a bad thing - i just don't consider it as big a positive as I expect others do/will.

Agreed, it's hardly Sakic's most valuable bullet point on his CV. However, when the voting gets tough, and we get into the minutia (and man, do we ever get into minutia), that is another half point going Sakic's way.

 

[The Macho King]

It is one element that can point to clutch players. Being the hero when it counts the most.
And since it's a team game, played against another team, most players usually have to rise to the occasion using the cards dealt to them on any particular shift.

Sakic is a great playoff performer and has a reputation as such. The 8 OT goals are just incidental. Positive, sure, but if we're talking about the balance of their resumes, it would be like the 43rd tiebreaker.

It's one of those things that will get a 4 page thread on HF when it happens and is then forgotten. There's just so many factors outside of a player's control. First - you have to have enough OT games. Second, your goalie has to play well enough for you to have a chance to score (and to a degree no major defensive breakdowns either, but teams tend to play OT tight so I would guess this is pretty rare). Third - one of the other 17 skaters on your team has to not score (some of those players being pretty damn good in their own right).

I just think - say two of those 8 OT goals ended up with a save but a juice rebound that Tanguay or someone tapped in - are we saying that Sakic is now less of a playoff performer because he got only 6 OT goals? Or say he passed on a 2 on 1 instead of shot it, and the player buried the chance.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I won't get to in depth with Sakic vs Trottier vs Clarke specifically.

They're all bunched tightly and will probably be all over the place on ballots. Maybe not huge swings but I simply don't think there will be any sort of real consensus.

All 3 were good defensively with Clarke being the best IMO.

Sakic is probably the best offensive F of the 3, but again, we're not talking big gaps here. Clarke though won 3 Hart's, while Sakic and Trots combined for 2. Sakic clearly wins on longevity here IMO, a decent bit ahead of Trottier and then Bobby.

Sakic was 12th all time in the HoH playoff performer project. Trots was 24th. Clarke, unranked although I think last round showed that he's hardly an average or worse postseason player.

Sakic was one spot ahead of Trots in the C's project 4 years back. Clarke actually a few spots ahead of both.

Damn it, I honestly don't see how we're going to separate these 3 very much. And then of course you have Espo who's peak is easily the best of the 4. But that peak also coincided with Bobby Orr.

 

[sr edler]

The pendulum had firmly swung the other way, hard​

Not as hard. Ottawa had a better team on paper but the 1921 finals went 5 games and all were 1 goal games.

 

[seventieslord]

Then compare to the finals in 1921 Game 3

Lehman-----Goalie-----Benedict
Cook-----Point-----Gerard
Duncan-----Coverpoint-----Boucher
Mackay-----Rover-----Cleghorn
Taylor-----Center-----Nighbor
Adams -----RW-----Denneny
Harris -----LW-----Darragh

The pendulum had firmly swung the other way, hard​

Those were all excellent players on Vancouver though. No dead weight.