Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3

[MXD]

Points not seasons?

I'm pretty sure it was a point factor.

 

[Batis]

My God.....

I mean really.

Yes it is really almost unbelievably weak to go from scoring 14 points in 15 games at the group stage level to scoring 1 point in 8 games at the knockout stage. There are different ways to lose. You can go out fighting and with your head held high and you can go out like Ovechkin often has done throughout his international career.

Fun fact. Nikita Kucherov has already scored more best-on-best tournament knockout stage points (2 pts in 1 gp) than Ovechkin has done throughout his career.

Fantastic work. Out of curiosity are you doing this manually, or is there a place to easily track this? I tried looking in the past for international results but didn't have as much luck.

I did it manually by going through the boxscores.

 

[bobholly39]

So one Ottawa season equals 2-3 on the longevity scale.

Ottawa then back to detroit for 2 years. I misspoke those 3 years weren't all for ottawa but they're the ones i meant

 

[86Habs]

Yes it is really almost unbelievably weak to go from scoring 14 points in 15 games at the group stage level to scoring 1 point in 8 games at the knockout stage. There are different ways to lose. You can go out fighting and with your head held high and you can go out like Ovechkin often has done throughout his international career.

Fun fact. Nikita Kucherov has already scored more best-on-best tournament knockout stage points (2 pts in 1 gp) than Ovechkin has done throughout his career.

I did it manually by going through the boxscores.

Interesting work. With respect to Ovechkin, I wonder how much of this has to do with Russia's revent relative lack of depth and the ability of strong teams, such as Canada, to construct a defensive game plan and assign elite 2-way players focused on shutting down / limiting Ovechkin?

 

[seventieslord]

Note: Like seventieslord's valuing of the WHA years at 0.5 (two great years there equivalent to one in the NHL - a formula I used on Bobby Hull), so I join many on this History board in seeing pre-consolidation NHL And PCHA as a two-seasons-for-one value deal.

Whoa whoa whoa, let's show down here. It's 0.7, and that's with regards to points. A 100 point WHA season is worth a 70 point season in the same year in the NHL... Approximately, of course.

As for the PCHA, if it even was behind the NHA\NHL between 1913 and 1921, it wasn't by much. There's no way it's comparable to the WHA on the sense that it was a weaker league needing discounting. All you need to remember is that any scoring finish (in the pcha, nha, NHL, wchl) should be multiplied by two, to get a reasonable estimation of its post-1926 equivalent. A player cannot finish 10th in points in the pcha twice and then be deemed to have "the equivalent of one top 10 season" - that would greatly overstate his value.

 

[ted2019]

voted

 

[ted2019]

Whoa whoa whoa, let's show down here. It's 0.7, and that's with regards to points. A 100 point WHA season is worth a 70 point season in the same year in the NHL... Approximately, of course.

As for the PCHA, if it even was behind the NHA\NHL between 1913 and 1921, it wasn't by much. There's no way it's comparable to the WHA on the sense that it was a weaker league needing discounting. All you need to remember is that any scoring finish (in the pcha, nha, NHL, wchl) should be multiplied by two, to get a reasonable estimation of its post-1926 equivalent. A player cannot finish 10th in points in the pcha twice and then be deemed to have "the equivalent of one top 10 season" - that would greatly overstate his value.

How did you come up with the WHA to NHL point conversion?

 

[VanIslander]

All you need to remember is that any scoring finish (in the pcha, nha, NHL, wchl) should be multiplied by two, to get a reasonable estimation of its post-1926 equivalent.

Got it.

 

[Nick Hansen]

I don't see how Crosby wins a believable Selke...Bergeron seems to be better than ever, Barkov is on the up, Couturier, Marchand, O'Reilly, (Kopitar (awful so far but...)) and so on. I happen to consider Yzerman's Selke to be very much of a 'we recognize you were great, tough shit about Gretzky and Lemieux, but here, your transformation will be duly noted and praised'. Crosby doesn't have that case. But, I never count him out so if he decides to go that way 100% then maybe...

I agree that he raises his game significantly in that regard in the PO's but his RS is mostly 'responsible', pretty good today.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Apropos the issue of Morenz vs. Messier in a defensive capacity, can we at least agree that Morenz was a more effective defender in his time than Messier was in his(?)

 

[bobholly39]

Lol. Yeah. I've detailed his multiple all-star selections at three world championships in the 1980's (three medals for his country), winning games at the 1988 Olympics in Calgary, backstopping a tie against Canada in the 1987 Canada Cup, giving up only goals engineered by Gretzky, Messier, Lemieux and Bourque.

Do we give weight to the pre-NHL play of Soviets? Are there any career Czechoslovakians on top120 lists?

Makarov, Kharlamov, Tretiak, Fetisov, Mikhailov, Firsov... what they did at the world championships will be given weight. Why shouldn't Hasek's three all-star world championships? (Heck. he played AGAINST the mighty Soviets!)

86-90 + 93-02 ... that's 15 years of greatness.

From being the youngest ever Czechoslovakian national team member (1984 Canada Cup) to winning the Stanley Cup 18 years later...

To me i don't consider international resume part of longevity. Longevity is full seasons in a competitive league. I look at international resume separately (and yes Hasek is great there).

You tell me. Make a compelling argument for how much weight we should give Hasek for his full seasons played outside of North America. I'll admit this hasn't been a big element i looked at in-depth for him. If you think they're worth significant worth, i'd like to get some more feedback on it.

 

[VanIslander]

Yzerman and Forsberg EARNED their Selke votes through commitment to the grunt work of physically checking the puck carrier.

Messier is the closest this round. He with Tikkanen checked as effectively as Modano with Lehtinen. In both cases, the winger got Selke voting attention but they were effective as duos.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

How did you come up with the WHA to NHL point conversion?

I’ve seen that number before as well but I can’t remember the source.

I believe the person who did that study went through season by season and looked at how a player performed in one year in the NHL versus the year before/after in the WHA (ie point totals in one league versus another). There was lots of movement between the leagues so the author got a reasonably large sample. I don’t recall how much they took into account age, injuries, line mates, etc - but with a reasonably large sample it shouldn’t create any systematic errors.

It’s just an approximation of course but it shows that there’s some value in an elite WHA season.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Yzerman and Forsberg EARNED their Selke trophies through commitment to the grunt work of physically checking the puck carrier.

Messier is the closest this round. He with Tikkanen checked as effectively as Modano with Lehtinen. In both cases, the winger got Selke voting attention but they were effective as duos.

Forsberg never won the Selke even though he was close, as was Sakic.

 

[MXD]

Apropos the issue of Morenz vs. Messier in a defensive capacity, can we at least agree that Morenz was a more effective defender in his time than Messier was in his(?)

TL;DR (and TL;WW) : Yes.

 

[MXD]

Whoa whoa whoa, let's show down here. It's 0.7, and that's with regards to points. A 100 point WHA season is worth a 70 point season in the same year in the NHL... Approximately, of course.

As for the PCHA, if it even was behind the NHA\NHL between 1913 and 1921, it wasn't by much. There's no way it's comparable to the WHA on the sense that it was a weaker league needing discounting. All you need to remember is that any scoring finish (in the pcha, nha, NHL, wchl) should be multiplied by two, to get a reasonable estimation of its post-1926 equivalent. A player cannot finish 10th in points in the pcha twice and then be deemed to have "the equivalent of one top 10 season" - that would greatly overstate his value.

I remember this.
What I can't remember is : was there some provision to have a "1" finish somewhere, when a player had a REALLY good season?

 

[VanIslander]

Forsberg never won the Selke even though he was close, as was Sakic.

Forsberg earned his Selke trophy votes (2nd to Peca) and Sakic, yeah, runner-up to Madden.

The point is: Let's not excuse away
Yzerman's defensive greatness bt attributing his Selke votes as an homage to a great player the way the Lady Byng is.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Nighbor's offensive record is also overly inflated due to playing in Ottawa. Last word on topic. Don't imply that I'm lacking in knowledge.

I wasn't, I promise you that. I'm more than aware that you know your stuff and not worried about the contrary.

Also, the player you mentioned got hosed by being a play making dominant C who likely lost a decent amount of points due to lack of clear assist data. So while there may be some inflation to playing on a dynasty in Ottawa that is more than canceled out by lack of complete scoring data for the time period. But a topic for the next (or later) rounds.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Prediction: All the players tie for first...or last...in our voting, seems to be a lot of folks spread out...

I'm not ready for Ovechkin or Messier yet for sure. At least not in any prominent way...

I am ready for Crosby, Morenz has to at least be over Shore, but Morenz isn't above Crosby...so they're both above Shore. Lidstrom and Bourque, in my eyes, are a tier above Shore. So they're ahead.

I don't know what to do with Hasek. Behind Bourque and Lidstrom I guess, but then where...? I think I want Jagr over Hasek too, but not over Potvin.

I guess: Lidstrom/Bourque/Crosby/Morenz
then Potvin/Jagr/Hasek might be the start of my ballot...? Maybe...?

 

[ImporterExporter]

I don't see how Crosby wins a believable Selke...Bergeron seems to be better than ever, Barkov is on the up, Couturier, Marchand, O'Reilly, (Kopitar (awful so far but...)) and so on. I happen to consider Yzerman's Selke to be very much of a 'we recognize you were great, tough **** about Gretzky and Lemieux, but here, your transformation will be duly noted and praised'. Crosby doesn't have that case. But, I never count him out so if he decides to go that way 100% then maybe...

I agree that he raises his game significantly in that regard in the PO's but his RS is mostly 'responsible', pretty good today.

If Crosby wants to (his work ethic is second to none) and whoever is coaching him in his mid to late 30's thinks it best, I have no doubts he can be that kind of player. Seen if already in flashes, namely the postseason. One example is him vs Thornton and SJ in the Cup finals in 2016. The issue is deployment more than anything. Right now Crosby is better served being slanted towards the offensive game while being a solid 2 way F and responsible in his own end. Good in the dot, etc.

But as he continues to slow down the best option may be for him to become a defensive minded C, especially if the Pens could find a young player to take over scoring line duties up top.

But overall, yes, Crosby would be best served being described as responsible defensive with the ability to play at a higher level in stretches but not game in and game out.

 

[MXD]

Yzerman and Forsberg EARNED their Selke votes through commitment to the grunt work of physically checking the puck carrier.

Messier is the closest this round. He with Tikkanen checked as effectively as Modano with Lehtinen. In both cases, the winger got Selke voting attention but they were effective as duos.

Boatload of obfuscating bullshit. You're using Modano as a comparator to Messier, but Modano did get some serious Selke attention on his own, even more than Lehtinen at times (as attests his formal nomination in 2000-2001. Messier, as a Partner to Tikkanen, got....

Wait for it...

2, 2, 2, 2, and 3 votes for the Selke.

 

[seventieslord]

How did you come up with the WHA to NHL point conversion?

It was a meta-study based on every single forward who, not significantly before or after his point producing Prime, spent at least two seasons in the WHA and at least two in the NHL. It compared their wha production level, no more than two years removed from their NHL careers, to their NHL production level, no more than two years removed from their wha careers. then, based on the sample size as I had to work with with each player, the results were weighted and used to calculate what is the typical difference in production between a player when he plays in the WHA versus the NHL.

 

[seventieslord]

I remember this.
What I can't remember is : was there some provision to have a "1" finish somewhere, when a player had a REALLY good season?

yes, absolutely. At least three people that I know, including myself, have taken a much more granular approach to the problem of the pre 1926 leagues. What I quoted to you today, is just a very simple rule of thumb for people who want something quick and dirty

 

[VanIslander]

I see the defensive work of forwards as of three categories. Not positive vs. negative but three:

POSITIVE: contributes to defense exceptionally, widely praised for play without the puck

NEUTRAL: Is responsible defensively or is average or not expected to contribute defensively, isn't his role

NEGATIVE: Is criticized for lack of responsibility by coach, media, etc. , clear evidence of cost of inaction in checking dept.

Nighbor has a positive value to his all-time status, Lemieux a neutral value, Cowley a negative value defensively.

Most forwards fall in the neutral value because they are not exceptional enough, though they may be 'good' at it.

Not many forwards are truly negative. Most of the greatest offensive players were not expected to play defensively, were simply put on a line with a checking guy. It would take the irresponsibility of a Bure costing his team games to get a negative.

Defensemen however are expected to play defense: it's their primary responsibility. That's a totally different kettle of fish.

 

[MXD]

...so after being called on your bullshit, you equalize everyone. Which is just even more bullshit.