Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 16

[seventieslord]

... If you do this across the board :
- Maurice Richard has an Art Ross
- Ovechkin ends up with 3 STRAIGHT Art Ross, joining a very select group (Howe, Esposito, Lafleur, Gretzky and Jagr)
- Mike Bossy... well, it doesn't change much since he still leads the league in goalscoring twice, and impoves only slightly his scoring finishes (he has two 4th that becomes 3rd).

Not to mention their more complete game.

Oh, Richard and Ovechkin both had more dimensions (or, actually, better 2nd and 3rd and 4th) dimensions than Hull. Also, while Brett Hull wasn't a bad playoff performer per se, he's nowhere near close to the same stratosphere as Bossy and Richard.

When it comes to elite players, I don't think it's about valuing goals more than assists, or vice versa. Points are points. What we should value is balance. Players with diverse skill sets who utilize them at all times. Players who aren't predictable. I think a guy who's 40-60-100 is slightly preferable to a guy who's 20-80-100 or 65-35-100.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Send like Denneny is still the best offensive player on the board, and the margin is no longer narrow.

Max Bentley certainly has a case there, regular season and playoffs combined, once team factors are brought into consideration.

 

[seventieslord]

Max Bentley certainly has a case there, regular season and playoffs combined, once team factors are brought into consideration.

It seems like way too much mental adjustment would have to be done for team factors, more than would generally be reasonable.

 

[MXD]

@seventieslord , Bentley's third best VsX happened during a War Year and that threshold hasn't been war-fudged, right?

 

[MXD]

Max Bentley certainly has a case there, regular season and playoffs combined, once team factors are brought into consideration.

Possibly, but consider my post, right above.

 

[seventieslord]

@seventieslord , Bentley's third best VsX happened during a War Year and that threshold hasn't been war-fudged, right?

Uh, not sure actually. Hockey outsider can clarify that.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

@seventieslord , Bentley's third best VsX happened during a War Year and that threshold hasn't been war-fudged, right?

Are you talking 42-43 - what I would call a partial war year, when most NHLers were still in the league, but a decent number had left already?

Anyway, I'm at least satisfied that the war year fudges of VsX appropriately discount those years.

As for Bentley in particular, I think it's more important to note that he lost his age 23 and 24 seasons to WW2. So if anything, his offensive stats were hurt by the war, not helped.

__________________________

For me, Denneny has something of a "Brett Hull" problem, where he was mostly useless without the puck on his stick, and that includes the possession game, where Bentley seems to have excelled.

I'm also a bit skeptical of Denneny's scoring stats as the only true shoot-first player on a dynasty team in an area that undercounted assists.

Regardless of all that, Denneny has a solid chance at my top 5, just not over Bentley or Joliat.

 

[MXD]

Are you talking 42-43 - what I would call a partial war year, when most NHLers were still in the league, but a decent number had left already?

Anyway, I'm satisfied that the war year fudges of VsX appropriately discount those years.

As for Bentley in particular, I think it's more important to note that he lost his age 23 and 24 seasons to WW2. So if anything, his offensive stats were hurt by the war, not helped.

Fair enough -- I mostly wanted to point to a possible blind spot.

For the record, Max Bentley finished 3rd in scoring, but had a (slightly) better PPG than the Art Ross winner (who was his linemate and brother Doug)

 

[overpass]

To add to TDMM's excellent post, Joliat's star power in Montreal is impressively strong for a player of his era, who played with a superior linemate in Howie Morenz.

If you asked random people on the street who is Howie Morenz and who is Aurèle Joliat, I'm not sure who would be the most well known between the two.It might just be Joliat.

Now there is the french-canadian factor to this, but still.

He is a strong candidate for my #2 spot, behind Charlie Gardiner who is a lock at #1.

Joliat received support in the 1987 Montreal poll I posted about favourite athletes of the century. Not as much as Morenz, but more than many other Montreal greats.

La Presse (a Montreal newspaper) had a fan survey in 1987 for their centennial edition asking for their readers' favourite athletes of the past century. 1250 readers submitted 10 name ballots, which were scored using a 10-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 system. Maurice Richard won going away, with baseball player Babe Ruth in second, Gordie Howe in third, and boxers Joe Louis and Muhammed Ali in fourth and fifth. Below are the results for the hockey players.

1 Maurice Richard 6767
3 Gordie Howe 2745
6 Wayne Gretzky 2513
9 Guy Lafleur 1375
10 Jean Beliveau 1062
13 Howie Morenz 955
20 Jacques Plante 667
22 Bobby Orr 662
27 Vladislav Tretiak 502
36 Aurele Joliat 320
50 Mike Bossy 24

 

[BenchBrawl]

Joliat received support in the 1987 Montreal poll I posted about favourite athletes of the century. Not as much as Morenz, but more than many other Montreal greats.

La Presse (a Montreal newspaper) had a fan survey in 1987 for their centennial edition asking for their readers' favourite athletes of the past century. 1250 readers submitted 10 name ballots, which were scored using a 10-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 system. Maurice Richard won going away, with baseball player Babe Ruth in second, Gordie Howe in third, and boxers Joe Louis and Muhammed Ali in fourth and fifth. Below are the results for the hockey players.

1 Maurice Richard 6767
3 Gordie Howe 2745
6 Wayne Gretzky 2513
9 Guy Lafleur 1375
10 Jean Beliveau 1062
13 Howie Morenz 955
20 Jacques Plante 667
22 Bobby Orr 662
27 Vladislav Tretiak 502
36 Aurele Joliat 320
50 Mike Bossy 24

This is a surprisingly strong result for Aurèle Joliat, and supports my intuition.

I'm surprised to see Gordie Howe so high on the list.

As a minor caveat, Joliat's popularity might have been boosted by this event (75th Anniversary of the franchise) from 1984 which painted him in a sympathetic light:

 

[MXD]

... Actually, what surprises me the most about this list?
Would've expected Jackie Robinson 2nd.

 

[BenchBrawl]

... Actually, what surprises me the most about this list?
Would've expected Jackie Robinson 2nd.

overpass took out the non-hockey players.

edit: nvm, he did list the Top 5, my bad

Babe Ruth is kind of incomprehensible.Why would Montrealers in 1987 care about Babe Ruth?

 

[MXD]

overpass took out the non-hockey players.

edit: nvm, he did list the Top 5, my bad

Babe Ruth is kind of incomprehensible.Why would Montrealers in 1987 care about Babe Ruth?

Well, they cared a lot about baseball these days, and Ruth always had the biggest aura (and let's not get caught up on where he belongs in Baseball pecking order).
I mean, Gary Carter and Tim Raines would've been awful answers.

But Robinson was an absolutely legend who had played for the Royaux.

 

[wetcoast]

Well, they cared a lot about baseball these days, and Ruth always had the biggest aura (and let's not get caught up on where he belongs in Baseball pecking order).
I mean, Gary Carter and Tim Raines would've been awful answers.

But Robinson was an absolutely legend who had played for the Royaux.

Robinson is indeed an icon but in 1987 Montreal Expos was a star, always under appreciated.

 

[Canadiens1958]

When it comes to elite players, I don't think it's about valuing goals more than assists, or vice versa. Points are points. What we should value is balance. Players with diverse skill sets who utilize them at all times. Players who aren't predictable. I think a guy who's 40-60-100 is slightly preferable to a guy who's 20-80-100 or 65-35-100.

Still, the best can fill all three roles. Prime example, Jean Beliveau:

Jean Beliveau Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[MXD]

@TheDevilMadeMe tackled the point of assists for Joliat, which made me realize it was probably not a bad idea to repost these.

TEAM Goals Assists Assists Per Goals [TBODY] [/TBODY] Canadiens 73 41 0,56 Toronto 82 58 0,71 Ottawa 77 55 0,71 Hamilton 81 56 0,69 1922-1923 Avg 313 210 0,67 Canadiens 59 30 0,51 Toronto 59 32 0,54 Ottawa 74 48 0,65 Hamilton 63 32 0,51 1923-1924 Avg 255 142 0,56 Canadiens 93 59 0,63 Toronto 90 57 0,63 Ottawa 83 52 0,63 Hamilton 90 55 0,61 Maroons 45 31 0,69 Bruins 49 29 0,59 1924-1925 450 283 0,63 Canadiens 79 30 0,38 Toronto 92 39 0,42 Ottawa 77 46 0,60 Maroons 91 44 0,48 Boston 92 42 0,46 Pittsburgh 82 30 0,37 Amerks 68 23 0,34 1925-1926 AVG 581 254 0,44 Canadiens 99 34 0,34 Toronto 79 43 0,54 Ottawa 86 43 0,50 Maroons 71 34 0,48 Boston 97 51 0,53 Pittsburgh 79 28 0,35 Amerks 82 37 0,45 Rangers 95 48 0,51 Chicago 115 64 0,56 Detroit 76 43 0,57 1926-1927 AVG 879 425 0,48 [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Canadiens1958]

Well, they cared a lot about baseball these days, and Ruth always had the biggest aura (and let's not get caught up on where he belongs in Baseball pecking order).
I mean, Gary Carter and Tim Raines would've been awful answers.

But Robinson was an absolutely legend who had played for the Royaux.

Montreal and the province of Quebec has changed a lot since 1946:

League apologizes for racist taunts directed at hockey player, family

 

[BenchBrawl]

Montreal and the province of Quebec has changed a lot since 1946:

League apologizes for racist taunts directed at hockey player, family

Well to be fair this is St-Jerome.

(edited)

 

[wetcoast]

Montreal and the province of Quebec has changed a lot since 1946:

League apologizes for racist taunts directed at hockey player, family

This is indeed part of the solution.

 

[MXD]

Its probably better I dont get started on these ... ******.
(If I posted this message earlier on, I sincerely apologize)

 

[ted2019]

Is there a "master list" for the R-ON, R-OFF charts?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Is there a "master list" for the R-ON, R-OFF charts?

@Hockey Outsider and @overpass are the ones to ask.

 

[Sentinel]

Fedorov seems a few rounds too late.

FTFY.

 

[Sentinel]

Was this because Fedorov was used in more of a defensive role those years?

In 97 he was tasked with shutting down Lindros. In 2002 he carried the line of Shanahan and Yzerman's leg. His defensive play was stellar.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

FTFY.

Compelling argument.