Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 16

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Charlie Gardiner bullet points

• Gardiner was a 3 time 1st Team All Star, 1 Time 2nd Team All Star competing against George Hainsworth, Tiny Thompson, Roy Worters, Alec Connell, Lorne Chabot, and John Ross Roach in the first 4 years of the All Star Teams
• Gardiner received a lot of praise for his 1928-29 and 1929-30 seasons, the last two seasons before the official All-Star teams. We have records of Roy Worters getting the unofficial GM 1st Team for 28-29, but no records of the 2nd Team, and nothing for 29-30 other than Hart voting.
• When Frank Brimsek was a rookie, the press called him "the best looking rookie goaltender since Charlie Gardiner," indicating that Gardiner was playing well even as a rookie in 1927-28.
• Gardiner was outstanding in the playoffs in losing causes in 1930 and 1931 for the hopelessly outmatched Blackhawks. So good in 1931 that the winning Canadiens hoisted Gardiner (the goalie of the losing team) on their shoulders and brought him to their dressing room for the Cup party!
• Gardiner was a key part of the Blackhawks' first Cup in 1934.
• Howie Morenz, Aurele Joliat, Frank Boucher, and Charlie Conacher all considered Gardiner the best goalie they ever played against.
• Dick Irvin (who loved his boy Bill Durnan) called a rookie Durnan "the best goalie since Charlie Gardiner).
• When the press discussed how big a star Dave Kerr was, the conclusion was that he was "no Chuck Gardiner or Georges Vezina."

Again, thanks to @Hawkey Town 18 for contributing to this.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Re: Hart voting:

In 1929-30 (the final season before the official All Star Teams), Charlie Gardiner led all goalies in Hart voting. Seems like there is good chance that he would have been a 1st Team All Star that season, which would give him 4 1st Teams, and 1 2nd Team.

1929-30
HART: (616)
1. Nels Stewart, Mtl M C 101
2. Lionel Hitchman, Bos D 94
3. Cooney Weiland, Bos C 79
4. King Clancy, Tor D 77
5. Frank Boucher, NYR C 75
6. Normie Himes, NYA C 70
T7. Howie Morenz, Mtl C 60
T7. Charlie Gardiner, Chi G 60

The problem with Hart voting during this era is we have incomplete records, and defensemen tended to hog a lot of the top 6 or 7 that we do have.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Charlie Gardiner and Bill Durnan (REPOST FROM HOH TOP GOALIES PROJECT)

Both played 7 seasons in the NHL

Durnan = 6 1st Team All Stars, but 2 of them were over competition that was probably worse than AHL quality and a 3rd was over competition that was still recoving from the war

Gardiner = 3 1st Teams, 1 2nd Team, plus a 4th likely 1st Team in 1929-30.

I don't see any advantage for Durnan in the regular season.

Advantages for Gardiner:

1) He generally exceeded expections in the playoffs. Durnan did not.

2) Gardiner's career was cut short by his sudden death due to illenss. Durnan's career was cut short after he pulled himself in the middle of the playoffs and retired because he couldn't mentally handle playing in the NHL anymore. Look at the difference in their stories as reported by Joe Pelletier:

Gardiner

Gardiner's finest moment came in the 1934 playoffs, as "Smiling Charlie" advanced the Hawks to the Stanley Cup Finals against Detroit. This despite the fact that Gardiner was feeling quite ill at the time. Unbeknownst to him or his doctors, Gardiner had long suffered from a chronic tonsil infection. The disease had spread and had begun to cause uremia convulsions. Undaunted, Gardiner pressed on as winning the Stanley Cup had become an obsession with him. Though playing in body-numbing pain, the Hawks prevailed over the Wings. He permitted only 12 goals in 8 playoff games - a 1.50 GAA.

A well liked and jovial fellow, Gardiner served as the Blackhawks captain, a rarity for a goalie even when it was allowed. Before the decisive 4th game, the "Roving Scotsman" showed his leadership and reportedly told his teammates that they would only need to score one goal that night. Sure enough, the game had gone into double overtime at a 0-0 tie. Suffering from growing fatigue, Gardiner was weakening considerably as the game went on. But he managed to hold the Red Wings scoreless until Chicago's Mush March finally scored.

The Hawks hoisted their first Stanley Cup, but Gardiner, the only goalie to captain a Cup champion, was just as happy he could escape the ice and collapse in the dressing room. A few weeks later Gardiner underwent brain surgery after suffering a massive brain hemorrhage. Unfortunately complications from the surgery would cost him his life on June 13, 1934.

Durnan:

Durnan left the game he loved because of the pressures involved in tending the net.

"Hockey started to get rough for me at the end of the 40's. I had broken my hand and after it mended it felt as if my arm was falling off whenever I'd catch the puck," said Durnan. "One of my main reasons for chucking it all was because the fun was going out of the game for me. A lot of my old pals were leaving - or had gone - and much of the camaraderie was missing."

Durnan also cited the money as a reason he got out of hockey.

"My reflexes had gotten a little slow and, besides, the money wasn't really that good. I'll admit, if they were paying the kind of money goaltenders get today, they'd have had to shoot me to get me out of the game! But at the end of any given season when I was playing I never seemed to have more than $2000 in the bank, so I wasn't really getting anywhere that way. I wasn't educated and I had two girls to raise."

Things came to a head in the 1950 playoffs against the New York Rangers however. The Rangers were on the verge of an upset when they had the Habs on the brink of elimination 3 games to 1. Durnan pulled himself from the series.

"I was afraid I was blowing things. I really wasn't, I guess, but we hadn't won a game and I didn't want to be blamed for it. And I felt I wasn't playing as well as I did in the past.. The nerves and all the accompanying crap were built up. It was the culmination of a lot of thinking and I realized 'What the hell, I'm quitting and this is as good as time as any'"

Gerry McNeil stepped in and finished the playoffs.

"A lot of people thought it was a nervous breakdown but it wasn't. To this day, people still won't believe me."

Conclusion: These two great short-career goalies are close, but Charlie Gardiner should be ranked a little bit higher.

 

[danincanada]

I'm realizing I'm not perfect (though its mostly because I'm prompted), but is it possible to compare Brett Hull and Sergei Fedorov to Aurèle Joliat and Max Bentley instead of to, say, Doug Gilmour and Teemu Selanne?

I'll leave that up to you guys. I've never seen Joliat or Bentley play.

And I'm finished pointing out the hypocrisy of a Leafs/Gilmour fan saying that Fedorov wasn't always in peak form or you stating that Hull was one-dimensional when Selanne has already been voted onto the list.

 

[blogofmike]

I don't see any advantage for Durnan in the regular season.

I see one. When Gardiner was gone, the Vezina Trophy stayed in Chicago. When Durnan was gone, it left Montreal.

Year	Primary Goaltender	Team GA	Rank	Lg Avg
1927	Hugh Lehman	116	10th	88	-32%
1928	Charlie Gardiner	134	10th	84	-60%
1929	Charlie Gardiner	85	10th	64	-33%
1930	Charlie Gardiner	111	2nd	130	15%
1931	Charlie Gardiner	78	2nd	105	26%
1932	Charlie Gardiner	101	1st	120	16%
1933	Charlie Gardiner	101	3rd	109	7%
1934	Charlie Gardiner	83	1st	116	28%
1935	Lorne Chabot	88	1st	121	27%
1936	Mike Karakas	92	2nd	104	12%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Year	Primary Goaltender	Team GA	Rank	Lg Avg
1943	Paul Bibeault	191	5th	181	-6%
1944	Bill Durnan	109	1st	204	47%
1945	Bill Durnan	121	1st	184	34%
1946	Bill Durnan	134	1st	167	20%
1947	Bill Durnan	138	1st	190	27%
1948	Bill Durnan	169	3rd	176	4%
1949	Bill Durnan	126	1st	163	23%
1950	Bill Durnan	150	1st	191	21%
1951	Gerry McNeil	184	3rd	190	3%
1952	Gerry McNeil	164	3rd	182	10%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Not only did INSERT CHICAGO GOALTENDER hang on to the Vezina, he beat the league average GA by about the same amount as Gardiner did at his best.

While 44 and 45 are likely inflated by the relative strength of his team, Durnan maintained a strong average even after players came back. There seems to be a notion that Durnan was on a team that was supposed to be a dynasty. The Canadiens hadn't won a playoff series since they beat Gardiner's Black Hawks in 1931, and after 1945 provided below average to average goal support.

 

[MXD]

- The Red Wings dynasty happened.
- Bill Durnan isn't the lone Canadiens HHOF'er retiring in 1950.

 

[blogofmike]

- The Red Wings dynasty happened.
- Bill Durnan isn't the lone Canadiens HHOF'er retiring in 1950.

I believe Durnan to be more influential on low GA totals. As a test, I picked 1949, because it's the closest season where Ken Reardon missed a chunk of time. Looks like he was out once on January 19, and 13 games from February 5 thru March 9.

In 60 games total, (14 games without Reardon, 46 with), here's how the Habs did:

	GF	GA	GFA	GAA
All	152	126	2.53	2.10
No Reardon	32	18	2.29	1.29
Reardon Plays	120	108	2.61	2.35

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Anybody know off hand what caused Max Bentley's assist total to spike dramatically in 1950-51? It is well beyond double his assist total from surrounding years, and it carried over into the playoffs as well.

Outside of that season, and the season where he was traded to Toronto, Bentley's results as a Leaf are a little underwhelming to me, considering we know Ted Kennedy was Toronto's match-up/defensive centre.

Bentley presents the same problem for me that Dickie Moore did, which is the general lack of great seasons outside of his two scoring leader years. Unlike Moore though, I've come across little suggestion that Bentley was strong in areas besides offense. His stickhandling and ability with the puck was exceptional by all accounts, but there's a distinction to be made between raw ability and the results that arise from it. In a way, Bentley in Toronto reminds me of Fedorov from 1997 onwards. Tremendous skill, contributed highly to three Stanley Cups, but you're left a little bothered by how pedestrian the regular season numbers are compared to the player's skill set.

The next point of discussion would be how the two big years in Chicago are treated. Post-war seasons, but certainly still a league in recovery with returning players not yet up to snuff. Bentley was out of the league for two seasons during the war, but did continue playing on military teams. I'm probably not as harsh on the post-war 1940's as others in terms of making adjustments for league strength, but the fact that Bentley petered out offensively by 1948 can't be overlooked completely.

 

[MXD]

I believe Durnan to be more influential on low GA totals. As a test, I picked 1949, because it's the closest season where Ken Reardon missed a chunk of time. Looks like he was out once on January 19, and 13 games from February 5 thru March 9.

In 60 games total, (14 games without Reardon, 46 with), here's how the Habs did:

	GF	GA	GFA	GAA
All	152	126	2.53	2.10
No Reardon	32	18	2.29	1.29
Reardon Plays	120	108	2.61	2.35

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Wow, you took my theory and threw it right in the garbage, hahahah!!!

(To be honest, Durnan really shone in 48-49; meanwhile, Reardon's last season - 49-50 - was probably his best)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Anybody know off hand what caused Max Bentley's assist total to spike dramatically in 1950-51? It is well beyond double his assist total from surrounding years, and it carried over into the playoffs as well.

Outside of that season, and the season where he was traded to Toronto, Bentley's results as a Leaf are a little underwhelming to me, considering we know Ted Kennedy was Toronto's match-up/defensive centre.

Bentley presents the same problem for me that Dickie Moore did, which is the general lack of great seasons outside of his two scoring leader years. Unlike Moore though, I've come across little suggestion that Bentley was strong in areas besides offense. His stickhandling and ability with the puck was exceptional by all accounts, but there's a distinction to be made between raw ability and the results that arise from it. In a way, Bentley in Toronto reminds me of Fedorov from 1997 onwards. Tremendous skill, contributed highly to three Stanley Cups, but you're left a little bothered by how pedestrian the regular season numbers are compared to the player's skill set.

The next point of discussion would be how the two big years in Chicago are treated. Post-war seasons, but certainly still a league in recovery with returning players not yet up to snuff. Bentley was out of the league for two seasons during the war, but did continue playing on military teams. I'm probably not as harsh on the post-war 1940's as others in terms of making adjustments for league strength, but the fact that Bentley petered out offensively by 1948 can't be overlooked completely.

Defensive coach Hap Day retired in the offseason after 1950. I'm sure that had something to do wih Bentley exploding the next season, though I'd like to read contemporary sources. Ted Kennedy also had an uncharacteristically strong offensive season in 50-51.

Anyway, while Bentley didn't have Moore's all-round game by any means, I find his scoring record much better. 5 top 5 finishes in NHL scoring (all of them with a VsX score of 90+), 4 in Chicago and 1 in Toronto. Edit: plus he lost his age 23 amd age 24 seasons to the war.

It's pretty clear from browsing Bentley's stats that playing for Hap Day hurt his regular season stats while helping him win championships.

I know Day tended to surround his offensive stars with checking wingers.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

For the record, I don't even dislike Hull in this group. I'm totally disposed to hear arguments as to where he ranks vs. Me, Denneny, Kurri and Bentley (to be honest.... you may totally drop "Me" here -- been there, done that, I know how it ends up). The three goalies appears to be the be the crop of this group, however.

I would SO much rather have You on my team...

...than Br. Hull (You're ahead by a lot) or Denneny (ahead by a bit less...)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I originally posted a version of this during the HOH Centers project and forgot about it. Came across it searching for old posts on Bentley. Guess I more or less answered @Kyle McMahon 's question 5 years ago, huh? I used to be good at this.

Max Bentley, or how a trade to a better team can hurt a player's regular season numbers, while helping his playoff resume

Max Bentley had a short but great regular season peak. If he maintained it longer, then he would be way past due on our list. As is, I think he's still a great candidate for best available forward,

Max Bentley spent the first portion of his career centering his brother Doug for a weak Chicago team. The Bentleys were basically everything to Chicago. They emerged in 1942-43 as star players.

1942-43: 3rd in scoring (brother Doug was 1st).
1943-44: WAR
1944-45: WAR
1945-46: 1st in scoring (Doug suffered injury problems)
1946-47: 1st in scoring (Doug was 6th)

I realize that the NHL wasn't at its strongest during the time - some notable players missed 1942-43 and parts of 1945-46, but most of the league was still there.

Either way, that's an outstanding peak and if Bentley maintained it, he would have been added to the list several rounds ago.

What happened in 1947-48? Max was traded to the dynasty Maple Leafs in one of the biggest trades in NHL history.

Three weeks later and six games into the season, the Maple Leafs completed a deal to acquire Bentley. He was sent to Toronto with Cy Thomas in exchange for Gus Bodnar, Bud Poile, Gaye Stewart, Ernie Dickens and Bob Goldham, on November 2, 1947.[12] The trade sent shockwaves throughout the league. The five players sent to Chicago essentially formed an entire starting unit; NHL President Clarence Campbell stated he was "astounded" by the deal, and stated it ranked with the Maple Leafs' purchase of King Clancy in 1930 as one of the most significant transactions in league history.[14] The trade was still being discussed weeks later as observers throughout the league attempted to assess which team received the better deal.[15] Bentley was initially disappointed to leave his brother in Chicago, but quickly adapted to Toronto where he was immediately popular.[4]

For the remainder of the season, Bentley centered Toronto's "third line" before Apps retired, after which Bentley split top billing with Ted Kennedy.

The 1947–48 season brought Max Bentley to Toronto from Chicago in what has been called the biggest trade in NHL history as the Leafs gave up five regular players for the league's scoring leader.[117] Evincing the depth of the team at centre, Bentley played on the team's third line, behind Apps and Kennedy. Decades later, Hap Day argued that this team was the strongest NHL team ever[118] and Globe and Mail reporter Dick Beddoes also stirred up controversy by saying Wayne Gretzky would have been relegated to the fourth line on this Leaf team.[119]

Max was initially heartbroken about the trade, and NHL insiders didn't understand why the Leafs gave up such a big part of their team to get just the one player - even if it was the great Max Bentley. The trade would quickly backfire on the Hawks instead and stands as one of the most lopsided trades in NHL history. The Hawks floundered without Max, missing the playoffs for the next several years.

Meanwhile in Toronto, Max was a key player in three Stanley Cup championships (1948, 1949 and 1951). Playing on a much deeper team (Max had to share ice time with fellow centers Syl Apps - who retired in 1948 - and Teeder Kennedy), Max never posted the same offensive statistics during the regular season in Toronto. However come playoff time he was unstoppable - twice leading all scorers in assists and once in points.

Max Bentley would finish 5th in scoring in 1947-48. His remaining top 20 finishes: 13th (1949), 3rd (1951), 20th (1952).

Bentley clearly wasn't putting up the offensive numbers in Toronto that he did in Chicago. Meanwhile, Doug Bentley finished 6th, 3rd, 2nd, and 7th in consecutive seasons without Max, for a floundering Black Hawks team.

Max, on the other hand, put out outstanding playoff numbers for Toronto.

Leading playoffs scorers 1948-1951 (Toronto wins 3 Cups in 4 years):

1. Max Bentley (TOR) 37 points in 36 games
2. Ted Kennedy (TOR) 34 points in 36 games
3. Sid Abel (DET) 24 points in 41 games
4. Ted Lindsay (DET) 21 points in 40 games
5. Gordie Howe (DET) 20 points in 28 games
6. Sid Smith (TOR) 20 points in 26 games
7. Maurice Richard (MON) 18 points in 23 games
8. Joe Klukay (TOR) 17 points in 36 games
9. Harry Watson (TOR) 16 points in 30 games
10. George Gee (DET) 14 points in 30 games

The gap between Bentley/Kennedy and the pack is absurd.

 

[pappyline]

I originally posted a version of this during the HOH Centers project and forgot about it. Came across it searching for old posts on Bentley. Guess I more or less answered @Kyle McMahon 's question 5 years ago, huh? I used to be good at this.

Max Bentley, or how a trade to a better team can hurt a player's regular season numbers, while helping his playoff resume

Max Bentley had a short but great regular season peak. If he maintained it longer, then he would be way past due on our list. As is, I think he's still a great candidate for best available forward,

Max Bentley spent the first portion of his career centering his brother Doug for a weak Chicago team. The Bentleys were basically everything to Chicago. They emerged in 1942-43 as star players.

1942-43: 3rd in scoring (brother Doug was 1st).
1943-44: WAR
1944-45: WAR
1945-46: 1st in scoring (Doug suffered injury problems)
1946-47: 1st in scoring (Doug was 6th)

I realize that the NHL wasn't at its strongest during the time - some notable players missed 1942-43 and parts of 1945-46, but most of the league was still there.

Either way, that's an outstanding peak and if Bentley maintained it, he would have been added to the list several rounds ago.

What happened in 1947-48? Max was traded to the dynasty Maple Leafs in one of the biggest trades in NHL history.



For the remainder of the season, Bentley centered Toronto's "third line" before Apps retired, after which Bentley split top billing with Ted Kennedy.





Max Bentley would finish 5th in scoring in 1947-48. His remaining top 20 finishes: 13th (1949), 3rd (1951), 20th (1952).

Bentley clearly wasn't putting up the offensive numbers in Toronto that he did in Chicago. Meanwhile, Doug Bentley finished 6th, 3rd, 2nd, and 7th in consecutive seasons without Max, for a floundering Black Hawks team.

Max, on the other hand, put out outstanding playoff numbers for Toronto.

Leading playoffs scorers 1948-1951 (Toronto wins 3 Cups in 4 years):

1. Max Bentley (TOR) 37 points in 36 games
2. Ted Kennedy (TOR) 34 points in 36 games
3. Sid Abel (DET) 24 points in 41 games
4. Ted Lindsay (DET) 21 points in 40 games
5. Gordie Howe (DET) 20 points in 28 games
6. Sid Smith (TOR) 20 points in 26 games
7. Maurice Richard (MON) 18 points in 23 games
8. Joe Klukay (TOR) 17 points in 36 games
9. Harry Watson (TOR) 16 points in 30 games
10. George Gee (DET) 14 points in 30 games

The gap between Bentley/Kennedy and the pack is absurd.

It should be mentioned of the 3 centers Bentley, Kennedy & Apps in 47-48. Bentley was the guy that received the Hart votes.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

How much does it hurt Gardiner that in the season following his death, Lorne Chabot, who had never won anything as an individual, also won 1st Team AS honours and had the best GAA behind a similar Chicago team?

In Durnan's case, the Vezinas stopped piling up after his departure.

I don't want to gloss over this.

My take on Gardiner's career: When he arrived with the Blackhawks, they stunk, and he was great. This continued at least through 1931, the year the Canadiens brought Gardiner into their Cup celebrations, after he was the goaltender on the losing team. That season, Gardiner had been voted 1st Team All-Star, despite not having the best GAA.

By the time Chicago won the Cup in 1934, they were actually a strong defensive team. They brought in HHOF defensive coach Tommy Gorman at the beginning of the 1932-33 season and started to run a traplike system. I realize Gorman left after the season, but it would seem the players kept playing something similar. They also had Lionel Conacher (who left after 1933-34) and Art Coulter (who had his first great season in 1934-35, according to voters).

____

Re: 1934-35, a few things:

1) HHOF defensive defenseman Art Coulter played in front of Chabot and finished 3rd in Hart voting.

2) Lorne Chabot (Gardiner's replacement) is often listed as one of the best goalies not in the HHOF. He was definitely better than Gerry O'Neil, the guy who replaced Durnan until Plante established himself.

3) Gardiner's death more or less began something of a dark age for NHL goalies that lasted until Brimsek and Broda came of age a few years later. Probably not coincidentally, the trend of the 1st Team All-Star always going to the starter who led the league in GAA begun (and wouldn't end until Glenn Hall broke it).

 

[Batis]

One impressive part of the resume of Brett Hull is his performances against Team Canada in best-on-best tournaments. In fact Hull is the only Non-Soviet player in the top 10 when it comes to All-time scoring against Best-on-Best Team Canada. Here you have that top 10. Note: I used the official stats to make it more official but I also included Bendell's alternative stats from the 1972 Summit Series in paranthesis. All stats were collected from the boxscores on this page. Форум хоккейных статистиков им. Виктора Малеванного - Главная страница

All-time scoring versus Best-on-Best Team Canada

Sergei Makarov: 8 gp, 5 g, 7 a, 12 pts
Alexander Yakushev: 8 gp, 7 g, 4 a, 11 pts (7 g, 6 a, 13 pts)
Brett Hull: 10 gp, 7 g, 4 a, 11 pts
Vladimir Krutov: 8 gp, 6 g, 5 a, 11 pts
Vyacheslav Fetisov: 7 gp, 2 g, 7 a, 9 pts
Vladimir Shadrin: 8 gp, 3 g, 5 a, 8 pts (3 g, 6 a, 9 pts)
Alexei Kasatonov: 9 gp, 1 g, 7 a, 8 pts
Sergei Shepelev: 4 gp, 4 g, 3 a, 7 pts
Valeri Kharlamov: 7 gp, 3 g, 4 a, 7 pts (3 g, 3 a, 6 pts)
Vladimir Petrov: 8 gp, 3 g, 4 a, 7 pts (3 g, 3 a, 6 pts)

And here you have Hulls stats versus Best-on-Best Team Canada broken down by tournament.

Hull
CC 1991 3 gp, 1 g, 1 a, 2 pts
WC 1996 4 gp, 5 g, 2 a, 7 pts
WOG 1998 1 gp, 1 g, 0 a, 1 pts
WOG 2002 1 gp, 0 g, 1 a, 1 pts
WC 2004 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Total 10 gp, 7 g, 4 a, 11 pts

Hull produced offensively against Team Canada in every tournament but his last one in 2004 at age 40. His amazing performance at the 1996 World Cup of course really stands out though.

So how does the other available players (who played against Best-on-Best Team Canada) do in this regard? Here you have it.

Mikhailov
SS 1972 8 gp, 3 g, 2 a, 5 pts (3 g, 4 a, 7 pts)

Fedorov
CC 1991 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
WC 1996 1 gp, 1 g, 0 a, 1 pts
WOG 2010 1 gp, 0 g, 1 a, 1 pts
Total 3 gp, 1 g, 1 a, 2 pts

Kurri
CC 1981 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
CC 1987 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
CC 1991 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
WOG 1998 1 gp, 1 g, 0 a, 1 pts
Total 4 gp, 1 g, 0 a, 1 pts

I would say that among this group Hull very clearly has the most impressive numbers against Team Canada. Both Mikhailov and Fedorov did well though and Mikhailov of course also has his great performance at the 1979 Challenge Cup which not is included here. Kurris numbers are not very impressive but we have to remember that Finland in the 80's not was as strong a hockey nation as it is today (or has been since the 90's) so his team was terribly outmatched against Team Canada during his prime.

Since I already have all the versus Best-on-Best Team Canada data collected posts like this one will replace my earlier knockout stage of Best-on-Best Tournaments posts considering that I at the moment don't have time to collect that data for every round.

 

[ted2019]

It's strange how Fedorov was legitimately a fantastic player who tends to be overrated at the same time. People talk like he was 1994 Fedorov all the time, but he took way too many nights off. I guess his better consistency in the playoffs erases that for a lot of people.




Forsberg had a better career, but Lindros was the better player before getting brained.

The placement of these guys (Fedorov and Lindros) around Selanne is definitely problematic for this list. Both were far superior players imo. Lindros definitely suffers on longevity, though.

I would say that Lindros was the most dominant player, but Forsberg was probably slightly better

 

[ted2019]

93-94, he was by far the best skater in the NHL with his outstanding Hart and Selke performance.

Scoring is his weak spot but a lot of that was Bowman influenced (not playing very much on the PP and even as a Dman) and he by far made up for it with outstanding and consistent playoff play over an extremely long period of time.

Mike Gartner was an incredible skater also, but he wasn't anywhere near the best player in the the world either.

 

[sr edler]

I'm not a native English speaker but I think "skater" in that context means "non-goalie player" and not "being able to skate well".

And yes, Fedorov probably has a case for best overall player/skater during his 94–96 stretch.

 

[ted2019]

I'll leave that up to you guys. I've never seen Joliat or Bentley play.

And I'm finished pointing out the hypocrisy of a Leafs/Gilmour fan saying that Fedorov wasn't always in peak form or you stating that Hull was one-dimensional when Selanne has already been voted onto the list.

I said earlier in this thread that it was too early for Teemu. However, Teemu had more assists then goals (unlike Hull) and he went to 6 Olympics (medaling 3 Bronze, 1 Sliver), while Hull went twice with no medals. Teemu also had 21 goals and 21 assists in 40 Olympic contests. Hull had 7 goals and 7 assists in 10 games.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Aurel Joliat should get a serious look for top 5

Joliat finished back to back with Dickie Moore during the HOH wingers project and I think that makes a lot of sense. Moore was already added to a our list a little bit ago in a weird vote-splitting incident, but it might be time for a serious look at Joliat.

The first thing to keep in mind with Joliat is that some of his best seasons happened before 1927, so the VsX # presented by @Hockey Outsider at the beginning of the thread would underrate him (HO himself acknowledged this and estimated that Joliat's true number would be very close to Kurri's, but I want to repeat it).

Style of play

Blazing fast, relentless two-way player. Fiesty. Tough for his very small size

A ferocious five-feet-six and 135 pounds, Joliat earned the nick-name "Mighty Mite" with his amazingly tough, physical style. A marvelous stickhandler and passer, as well as a lethal shot, Aurele combined finesse and feistiness to become one of the most respected players of his time.

Aurele Joliat was a prolific scorer and relentless backchecker during 16 rewarding seasons with the Montreal Canadiens. He never allowed his comparatively small frame to impede his progress in the NHL. Joliat often teamed with his good friend Howie Morenz to form one of the most potent offensive duos in league history. His blazing forays down the port side made him one of hockey's most exciting left wingers of all time, and his combination of speed and small size made him one of the trickiest skaters to bodycheck.

I guess I was tough enough. You had to be to survive. But I wasn't the toughest. That mule-headed, son of a ***** Eddie Shore was the meanest, toughest player I ever met. I was rushing up the ice at the Forum one night when my lights went out. Shore hit me with a check that almost killed me. I was what? 130 pounds at the time and he must have been 190. He dislocated my shoulder and they carried me off in a lot of pain. Then I look around and Shore is leading a fancy rush. Forget the sore shoulder. I leapt over the boards and intercepted the big bugger. Hit him with a flying tackle. Hit him so hard he was out cold on the ice. He had it coming, I'd say!

Longevity and consistency as an elite player / career value

I think this is the biggest advantage Joliat has over fellow two-way winger Kurri.

Look at Joliat's awards recognition.

Keep in mind that the 1927 and 1928 All Star Teams are the only ones we've been able to dig up from before 1931, and Joliat is on both:

• 5th in Hart voting in 1925 (split league)
• GM-voted 2nd Team All-Star in 1927 (thanks overpass) - one of the few seasons when Joliat dropped out of the top 10 in scoring (actually fell out of the top 20 ) - shows his value as a defensive player
• GM-voted 2nd Team All-Star in 1928

Now after the official All-Star Teams were created for 1931

• 1st Team All-Star LW in 1931
• 2nd Team All-Star LW in 1932 (behind Busher Jackson)
• 5th in AS LW voting in 1933
• 2nd Team All-Star LW in 1934 (behind Busher Jackson), HART TROPHY
• 2nd Team All-Star LW in 1935 (behind Busher Jackson), 5th in Hart voting
• 3rd in AS LW voting in 1936
• 4th in AS LW voting in 1937

That's a significantly longer period of relevance than most players available this round.

He was known as a playmaker, playing on a team that may have been stingy at giving away assists

(Note this is a repost from the HOH wingers project. So the links are broken. But @MXD did post earlier in the current project about Montreal of the era being a bit stingy to give out assists)

When looking for evidence for the claim that Denneny's Senators may have overcounted assists (conclusion: they probably did, but only by a little), MXD surprised everyone including himself by discovering that Montreal seemed to be the one team that handed out assists quite a bit more sparingly than most teams. He only found the data for the beginning of Joliat's prime, but it's worth noting: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=91375671&postcount=131

(See also reckoning's post for the 1930-31 season which also showed the Canadiens well below average in assists-per-goal, though not at the bottom: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=91605005&postcount=12)

This could be relevant, because Joliat was anecdotally a strong playmaker:

Milt Schmidt, Syl Apps, Teeder Kennedy, Sid Abel, and even Howie Morenz are not classified in the trade as great playmakers, though acknowledged as great hockey players.

"They belong to the 'driving' type of player, Dick Irvin said. "Fellows like Schmidt, Kennedy, and Abel go into the corners and get the puck out to their wings." Apps used to hit the defense at top speed and Drillion would come behind and pick up his garbage. Apps used to get sore when I told him that Drillion profited from his mistakes.

Howie Morenz wasn't a good playmaker, said Elmer Ferguson. "Aurele Joliat was the playmaker on that line and the greatest playmaking left-winger of all time. Just like Bobby Bauer at right wing was the playmaker for the Kraut Line."

The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search

If you go to the original article, it seems like puck possession is considered an important aspect of "playmaking." I think a classic "playmaker" was like a point guard in basketball - he was the guy who stickhandled the puck down the ice and made the first pass in the offensive zone - more important back when players couldn't pass the puck forward between zones. This might be why Ferguson says what he says, despite Morenz putting up better assist totals than Joliat.

Point being that Joliat's offensive contributions may be underrated slightly by looking at the stats.

Highly regarded by contemporary opinion

The inaugural 1945 class of the Hockey Hall of Fame consisted entirely of deceased players, so the 1947 class was the first one to induct living players. Dit Clapper, Aurel Joliat, Frank Nighbor, and Eddie Shore were the first still-living men who played hockey in the late 1920s and 1930s to be inducted into the HHOF (in 1947).

In 1962, Frank Boucher picked Joliat as the Left Wing on his "All-Time All-Star team," though it is obvious from the names that he was just picking players he played with or against, which means he just picked Joliat over Jackson: Meriden Record - Google News Archive Search

Check out HHOF player/coach Shorty Green's all-time all-star team:

Goal: Georges Vezina
Defence: Sprague Cleghorn
Defence: Eddie Gerard
Centre: Frank Nighbor
Right wing: Bill Cook
Left wing: Aurel Joliat

VERY heavy on Ottawa players, but still picks Joliat over Denneny

The Calgary Herald - Google News Archive Search

 

[BenchBrawl]

To add to TDMM's excellent post, Joliat's star power in Montreal is impressively strong for a player of his era, who played with a superior linemate in Howie Morenz.

If you asked random people on the street who is Howie Morenz and who is Aurèle Joliat, I'm not sure who would be the most well known between the two.It might just be Joliat.

Now there is the french-canadian factor to this, but still.

He is a strong candidate for my #2 spot, behind Charlie Gardiner who is a lock at #1.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

I have the dman ranked #1 in this round.

 

[wetcoast]

Mike Gartner was an incredible skater also, but he wasn't anywhere near the best player in the the world either.

Ehhelder has it right by best skater I meant non goalie.

And Fedorov has that claim and a very strong one as well.

His longevity is also probably better than Henri Richard as well.

It's also strange for some in this round to try and downplay his playoff excellence.

Even in his worst playoff season it's better than many worst or 2nd worst playoff seasons of many players already voted in.

He also should be higher than Firsov on this list but it's too late for that.

 

[MXD]

Re: Hart voting:

In 1929-30 (the final season before the official All Star Teams), Charlie Gardiner led all goalies in Hart voting. Seems like there is good chance that he would have been a 1st Team All Star that season, which would give him 4 1st Teams, and 1 2nd Team.

1929-30
HART: (616)
1. Nels Stewart, Mtl M C 101
2. Lionel Hitchman, Bos D 94
3. Cooney Weiland, Bos C 79
4. King Clancy, Tor D 77
5. Frank Boucher, NYR C 75
6. Normie Himes, NYA C 70
T7. Howie Morenz, Mtl C 60
T7. Charlie Gardiner, Chi G 60

The problem with Hart voting during this era is we have incomplete records, and defensemen tended to hog a lot of the top 6 or 7 that we do have.

I just realized how ridiculously "packed" the results are.

 

[seventieslord]

VsX results (1927-2018)

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th	10th	7YR	10YR
Max Bentley	114.3	101.7	97.2	93.9	90.0	75.9	59.4	59.4	55.6	52.5	90.4	80.0
Jari Kurri	100.0	100.0	93.4	92.9	83.9	73.4	73.3	72.1	64.2	58.8	88.1	81.2
Brett Hull	113.9	94.0	87.6	82.3	80.8	79.1	78.2	75.2	73.1	71.4	88.0	83.6
Aurel Joliat	111.4	88.6	86.0	81.4	78.0	71.1	61.7	58.6	57.5	56.3	82.6	75.1
Sergei Fedorov	100.0	89.2	79.8	75.6	74.7	74.1	71.9	71.4	68.7	66.0	80.8	77.1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The top three players are pretty close (though Hull clearly has better longevity in years eight through ten).

These numbers only go back to 1927, so I'm missing Joliat's first four seasons. He was runner-up in scoring in 1925 and 5th place in 1924 (though only three points from the scoring lead) in 1924). These were split-leagues, but you'd have to think (conservatively) there are worth at least 85's. That would give him a seven year score of 87.9 and a ten year score of 80.7 (even that's probably too low, as we could likely drop off a few of his tail-end years).

Send like Denneny is still the best offensive player on the board, and the margin is no longer narrow.

I might as well post my 3rd and final "standard" post now, since things are crazy at work and I likely won't contribute much else this week.

We have playoff plus/minus data for one new entrant this week - Sergei Fedorov:

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1990-91	7	0.89	0.67	33%
1991-92	11	1.33	0.93	43%
1992-93	7	2.00	0.75	167%
1993-94	7	0.88	2.14	-59%
1994-95	17	3.60	0.84	329%
1995-96	19	2.00	0.88	127%
1996-97	20	1.71	1.81	-5%
1997-98	22	1.00	2.11	-53%
1998-99	10	1.60	0.69	131%
1999-00	9	2.00	0.75	167%
2000-01	6	1.00	0.56	80%
2001-02	23	1.29	1.84	-30%
2002-03	4	0.67	0.29	133%
2007-08	7	0.80	0.80	0%
2008-09	14	1.17	1.21	-4%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

His results are very good, but with one important disclaimer (which I'll get to). His overall R-On of 1.37 is outstanding - nearly as good as Gretzky's career average. The difference between his goal differential, and the rest of the team's, is 22% - a bit behind Kurri and Datsyuk, and roughly in the same range as Alfredsson.

The one thing that jumps out in this data - Fedorov only had a few playoffs when his R-On was worse than his R-Off - but three of those were the years the Wings won the Cup, and in two of those, it was a significant lag. Was this because Fedorov was used in more of a defensive role those years?

What stands out to me in the cup winning years isn't that Fedorov's r-on was bad, our that it was lower than the team's, but that the team's r-on was so freaking high. With those kinds of numbers, how can you not win the cup?

On the other hand, it seems like he dragged them all the way to the finals in 1995. They were awful without him, and "Stanley Cup plus" caliber with him.

When did Gilmour sulk and quickly get traded? From what I heard him getting traded from St. Louis had more to do with a baby sitter, and I'm from Toronto and never heard stories of sulking when he left town. It was more about a veteran team that imploded so they cleaned house. After Toronto he was past his prime so those trades weren't about sulking either. Was the Calgary to Toronto trade about sulking?

Apparently they had a really contentious arbitration hearing in 1991, and he was disillusioned with the team from then on.