Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 16

[wetcoast]

You keep bringing up 2-way play for Fedorov as if it trumps all possible advantages another player may have in offensive production.

How much is it worth for you?

It should be worth quite a bit one would think as it does lead towards winning games.

I mean Bergeron is the best current example in the NHL.

It certainly helped guys like Nighbor and Henri Richard go higher than their offense would place them.

They are the obvious 2 guys.

The thing is that some saying that Fedorov shouldn't be in the top 120 will be all over Dave Keon instead and I have to wonder why?

Fedorov has his faults on his resume, who doesn't this round though?

He also has a very convincing and well deserved Hart trophy and his career wasn't some flash in the pan..

 

[wetcoast]

I'm not even reading the posts on Fedorov anymore and I dont really see any upside in having more of these.

That's your right but hopefully others are willing to look at everything before coming to definitive conclusions.

After all these are just opinions that we hold, it's good to test them by looking at players from different point of views, right?

 

[MXD]

Fedorov also needs better backers at this point.

 

[MXD]

That's your right but hopefully others are willing to look at everything before coming to definitive conclusions.

After all these are just opinions that we hold, it's good to test them by looking at players from different point of views, right?

I dont need to look at Fedorov from the point of view of people who are emotionally attached to him.

I care about facts. I dont care about your facts.

 

[wetcoast]

I dont need to look at Fedorov from the point of view of people who are emotionally attached to him.

I care about facts. I dont care about your facts.

Why would you say that I'm emotionally attached to him?

My arguments were about facts about him.

Exactly what facts that I presented weren't true? Quick answer is none.

And if they are true why don't you care?

Facts are the same for all people.

But maybe in this era of alternative facts, it's easier to ignore reality for whatever reasons.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

For whatever this bit of anecdotal evidence is worth, Jason Chimera was on local Edmonton radio not too long ago and mentioned that Fedorov was a real leader in Columbus, often staying late after practice to work on his game and mentor young players.

My readings of the standings suggest that there may be something more than anecdotal backing for this assertion. in 2005-06, Columbus started the season 4-11-0. That pace, if sustained, would have amounted to a grand and glorious 47 standings-points for their season. You'd have to go back to the 1999-2000 Thrash or ahead to the 2012-2013 Colorado (buried-in-their-own) Avalanche or that same season's Nashville Prey to find similar futility. After acquiring Fedorov, Columbus became the Blue Jackets instead of the Straight Jackets, and were nearly (but not quite) .500 the rest of the way.

It's not airtight proof... but it's decent circumstantial evidence that Fedorov was a positive influence on the results of the squad.

 

[wetcoast]

Fedorov also needs better backers at this point.

This isn't an ATD exercise is it?

It seems like that you aren't looking at the post but instead making up your mind on who is posting?

How is that help full?

 

[MXD]

This isn't an ATD exercise is it?

It seems like that you aren't looking at the post but instead making up your mind on who is posting?

How is that help full?

Are you implying that you're helpful?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

In his age 34 season, Turk Broda was good enough to be awarded a retroactive Conn Smythe by the SIHR/HHOF research group.

Since apparently "what a player did at age 34" is a thing now.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Alex Kovalev had by far the best season of his career at age 34 in 07-08 with Montreal.

At this point, that's off-topic, but why not?

 

[The Macho King]

In his age 34 season, Turk Broda was good enough to be awarded a retroactive Conn Smythe by the SIHR/HHOF research group.

Since apparently "what a player did at age 34" is a thing now.

MSL won the Art Ross at like 37 or 38.

 

[wetcoast]

In his age 34 season, Turk Broda was good enough to be awarded a retroactive Conn Smythe by the SIHR/HHOF research group.

Since apparently "what a player did at age 34" is a thing now.

Forwards, especially elite ones we are talking about in thread often decline in their late 20's and early 30's so yes everything a player does is important.

So everything is a thing now.

 

[wetcoast]

Are you implying that you're helpful?

Well arguments presented on facts is by definition more helpful than personal comments right?

Readers can decide for themselves.

 

[Elvis P]

Forwards, especially elite ones we are talking about in thread often decline in their late 20's and early 30's so yes everything a player does is important. So everything is a thing now.

List all these elite top 100/HHoF forwards who declined in their late 20s/early 30s.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

List all these elite top 100/HHoF forwards who declined in their late 20s.

Really? Do we need to invest keystrokes to demonstrate this?!?

All right, let's start at the very top:
Wayne Gretzky's top NHL points totals, by age: 25, 21, 24, 23, 22.
Gordie Howe's Art Ross trophies prior to age 29: 5. After age 29: 1.
Mario Lemieux's Art Ross trophies in his 20s: 3. In his 30s: 2.
(Fact that he got 2 in his 30s is part of what makes him a SuperFreak.)
Bobby Hull's Art Ross trophies before age 28: 3. Age 28 and after: zero(0).

Do I actually have to go on with this???

 

[Elvis P]

Really? Do we need to invest keystrokes to demonstrate this?!? All right, let's start at the very top:
...Do I actually need to go on with this???

Gretzky's early raw point totals and other's Art Ross trophies is the best you got? I'm on my phone and this isn't worthy of serious refutation. Good luck defending this argument.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Gretzky's early raw point totals and other's Art Ross trophies is the best you got?

It's all that's needed to get the job done.

Unless you want to try to argue that high-level scoring Forwards typically don't decline in their late 20s to early 30s. That's a premise that will require luck to defend in a credible manner.

 

[sr edler]

Fedorov was given a big free agent contract to come in and be their franchise player

Anaheim signing 34-year old Fedorov to be their franchise player feels a little bit too much like Vancouver signing 36-year old Messier to be theirs, to be honest.

Brett Hull had at least 2 better season past the age of 34.

Brett Hull was only his points, so no, he didn't have much better (if better at all) regular seasons in Dallas and Detroit than Fedorov had his one year in California. Brett Hull was not picked up by Dallas and Detroit to be anything close to a franchise player, by the way. He was picked up by already habitual contenders to be a complementary scoring/tip the scales guy in the playoffs. Dallas Stars won the Presidents' Trophy in 1998 without Brett Hull, so they obviously didn't need him for that reason.

I dont need to look at Fedorov from the point of view of people who are emotionally attached to him.

I've read @wetcoast's posts in this thread and, to me, it doesn't seem like he's presenting any arguments based on emotions. No more emotions than posters presenting unfavorable opinions about the player in question.

 

[danincanada]

It should be worth quite a bit one would think as it does lead towards winning games.

I mean Bergeron is the best current example in the NHL.

It certainly helped guys like Nighbor and Henri Richard go higher than their offense would place them.

They are the obvious 2 guys.

The thing is that some saying that Fedorov shouldn't be in the top 120 will be all over Dave Keon instead and I have to wonder why?

Fedorov has his faults on his resume, who doesn't this round though?

He also has a very convincing and well deserved Hart trophy and his career wasn't some flash in the pan..

Yup, Nighbor and Richard are great examples where two-way play and strong defensive play elevated forwards into overly lofty rankings but Fedorov somehow doesn’t get the same treatment and some claim he wasn’t even a top 100 guy? Bullocks.

Fedorov’s offensive numbers in both the the playoffs and regular season are more impressive than Henri’s as well.

 

[wetcoast]

List all these elite top 100/HHoF forwards who declined in their late 20s/early 30s.

Well for forwards this round, Hull, Kurri, Denneny, Bentley and Fedorov all had thier best years before their late 20s and early 30's right?

It's a pretty well established pattern.

2 of the earlier still playing guys also have the same pattern in Crosby and Ovechkin.

I'm not going to list every player but a simple look at most players on this list will confirm this.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Yup, Nighbor and Richard are great examples where two-way play and strong defensive play elevated forwards into overly lofty rankings but Fedorov somehow doesn’t get the same treatment and some claim he wasn’t even a top 100 guy? Bullocks.

Fedorov’s offensive numbers in both the the playoffs and regular season are more impressive than Henri’s as well.

Regular season? Not true.

 

[MXD]

Voted. Ended up ranking Max Bentley higher than I expected at the beginning of the round.

I think I'm one Duncan Keith away from concluding that, from now on, all available goalies will monopolize the first spots on my ballot (unless Chris Osgood is available for voting or something).

I think we'll be getting one or two goalie (before the final round).

 

[Canadiens1958]

Yup, Nighbor and Richard are great examples where two-way play and strong defensive play elevated forwards into overly lofty rankings but Fedorov somehow doesn’t get the same treatment and some claim he wasn’t even a top 100 guy? Bullocks.

Fedorov’s offensive numbers in both the the playoffs and regular season are more impressive than Henri’s as well.

Actually Fedorov never lead the NHL in any RS offensive stat.G/A/PTS.

Sergei Fedorov Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Henri Richard and Frank Nighbor led the NHL in RS assists a total of five times combined:

Frank Nighbor Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Henri Richard Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Both were better playoff performers as well.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Bentley and Kurri were risers for me this round.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Still tweaking my ballot, but the new candidates look to be faring well.