Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 16

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Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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I'm still dumbfounded by how highly Selanne placed on this list. Worthless defensively, proved nothing in the playoffs and two out of his goalscoring 'awards' were shared with Bondra and Mogilny.

His point finishes are nice, though. Second to Jagr and Lemieux in two different years is not a bad look. That's impressive. International record is pretty good as well.

Seeing both guys for a lot their careers I wouldn't have chosen Selanne over Kovalchuk for my team but whatever...I also think Kariya overshone Selanne during their time together.

Selanne is an odd case it seems. There seem to be very different opinions of him, despite him not really being a "controversial" player, or one that would have extra appeal to a certain type of voter (ex: somebody who really values peak, or really values playoffs, etc).
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
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For kicks. 5 highest players not yet voted in or eligible. No player from the top-half of my Top-120 left over (Gardiner was the last) :
- Duncan Keith
- Ed Belfour
- Tony Esposito (feels a bit high now, but would probably be in this group regardless)
- Henrik Lundqvist
- Roy Worters

(Mike, are you all right?)

I know, I know. Blackhawks fans. Ruining this thing.

Might as well join in, since we are just killing time:

5 highest players not yet added: Patrick Kane (I know QPQ said he wasn't getting listed soon), Norm Ullman, Elmer Lach, Vladimir Martinec, Bill Cowley.

In retrospect, maybe I should have had Duncan Keith or Zdeno Chara here.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
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Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Why are you being so snippy? I don't care about making my results more accurate, i just meant for the group in general.

TDMM explained it pretty well.

There was a lot of call for Firsov for a few rounds. Then he shows up and he's voted #1. If we had 15-20 players available instead of 10 - he'd have been available 1-2 rounds early. Considering all the talk he was getting - maybe he gets voted in 1, or maybe even 2 rounds earlier than he did. If he does - well that's more representative of our collective opinions, ie a more accurate result.

If anything I think my round 1 list past 40-50 is pretty flawed, so i'm not trying to get you guys to match it, quite the contrary. But considering it's that round 1 list (and all of your lists too) we're using to decide whose eligible or not - it seems pretty limiting this far into the project. More players to discuss = better.


Perhaps you should concern yourself with your production of lists. Not the production of others.
 

ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
2,095
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AnyWorld/I'mWelcomeTo
Ron Francis- Joe Thornton- Henrik Lundqvist- Roy Worters- Bill Cowley are Cherry Poppin' Daddies who would immediately relieve Brett Hull of the burden of receiving my Last Place Vote.

Would Iginla really be that out-of-line?! I like the Martinec mention. All right with Keith- but if I had a Prelim List mulligan, I might consider moving Gadsby around him. Keith looks like he's sliding into the Rod Langway phase of his career...
 

danincanada

Registered User
Feb 11, 2008
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So the offensive ability of a player is simply a matter of how many points they recorded, end of story. This does not bode well for Fedorov, as your criteria would seem to place him below (in some cases, well below) contemporaries Ron Francis, Doug Gilmour, Mike Modano, Adam Oates, Jeremy Roenick, Mats Sundin, etc. as an offensive player. Perhaps Fedorov is not a top 100 player afterall...

It’s more about offensive results than ability. Fedorov’s resulting numbers are simply better than Richard’s. If it was about abilty then Fedorov would rank quite high because his abilities were probably even greater the results and I get that it holds him back as an all-time great.

Apart from Roenick those are all great centers and all comparable to Fedorov and Henri so no shame in comparing offensive outputs as a reference. Obviously no one is saying it’s the only factor and all these players have a lot going for them.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
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The 5 highest players not eligible or ranked from my Round 1 list (which was admittedly a crapshoot list I made in under an hour at the deadline):

Serge Savard
Bill Gadsby
Zdeno Chara
Eddie Gerard
Borje Salming

Next: Keith, Keon

All defensemen except Keon.

Looks pretty good to me, though many other players would also look good.

Priority would be Bill Gadsby right now.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
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Brooklyn
It’s more about offensive results than ability. Fedorov’s resulting numbers are simply better than Richard’s. If it was about abilty then Fedorov would rank quite high because his abilities were probably even greater the results and I get that it holds him back as an all-time great.

Apart from Roenick those are all great centers and all comparable to Fedorov and Henri so no shame in comparing offensive outputs as a reference. Obviously no one is saying it’s the only factor and all these players have a lot going for them.

False.
 
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VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,134
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It's hard to correct some past HfBoard voting wrongs when many submitted initial top120 lists heavily influenced by past lists.

We should be able to argue for: Stuart, Gerard, Stewart, Cowley, Maltsev.... but we can't.

Heck, we have yet to see Joe Malone.

And how could Fedorov be inducted and we not even get to consider Elmer Lach?!
 

Michael Farkas

Grace Personified
Jun 28, 2006
13,352
7,834
NYC
www.HockeyProspect.com
Nowwwwww we want more Canadiens...? ;)


Also, Malone is already on the big board...so not only did we see him, but we voted him in...or am I taking crazy pills?

I wouldn't mind a crack at Eddie Gerard at this point though...even if it's just from an education-for-me standpoint...
 

Captain Bowie

Registered User
Jan 18, 2012
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It's hard to correct some past HfBoard voting wrongs when many submitted initial top120 lists heavily influenced by past lists.

We should be able to argue for: Stuart, Gerard, Stewart, Cowley, Maltsev.... but we can't.

Heck, we have yet to see Joe Malone.

And how could Fedorov be inducted and we not even get to consider Elmer Lach?!
Malone was voted in.

Fedorov will not be put in this round, and Lach could be up soon, he is one of the next guys on my list.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,672
16,395
I legit don't know which Stewart you're talking about VanI, and frankly, I don't care about either Stewarts, at all.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
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What do you mean by results being more accurate? Results are all a product of opinions.

Or do you mean a larger pool could make your results more accurate?

I agree the results are never accurate nor are they inaccurate, they are just simply the results of a number of opinions at that given time.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
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You sure?

7 top 10 Points vs. 2
7 top 10 Assists (2 1sts) vs. 1
2 top 10 Goals vs. 1

Really using top 10 finishes in a 6 team league compared to 21 to 30 for Fedorov?

There are other and better points if one wants to focus on richard being the better offensive guy, mainly his strength at even strength scoring, even if I think that gets a bit over rated around these parts at times.

The biggest thing for me is the playoffs where Richard simply never had the 4 year stretch, or indeed career that Fedorov did.

Fedorov peaked higher and his valley is higher than Richard as well in the playoffs.

And speaking of defensive centers offensive production, I sure hope those calling for Keon to come up soon had Fedorov high this round.

Keon really lags behind both these guys in terms of offense.
 

Captain Bowie

Registered User
Jan 18, 2012
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Really using top 10 finishes in a 6 team league compared to 21 to 30 for Fedorov?
I'd give you that point if they were even relatively close. But it's not. Regardless of number of teams, 1st is 1st, and Richard lead the league in something twice while Fedorov never did.

Your arguments in favour of Fedorov pretty much rely on things that cannot, or you have not been able to quantify. His 2-way play making up the difference, the league being smaller, ect. These types or arguments don't do a lot for me.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
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Henri Richard barely played on the PP, and his stats are still quite a bit better than Fedorov's.

Percentile methods like VsX show this.

I'm making this post for future readers, not for posters who obviously don't care for hockey that happened before they started personally watching.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
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I really wonder if he even comes up but I think Mark Howe is a top 120 player of all time, seems to get overlooked at times and his WHA career is often overlooked I think.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
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I'd give you that point if they were even relatively close. But it's not. Regardless of number of teams, 1st is 1st, and Richard lead the league in something twice while Fedorov never did.

Your arguments in favour of Fedorov pretty much rely on things that cannot, or you have not been able to quantify. His 2-way play making up the difference, the league being smaller, ect. These types or arguments don't do a lot for me.

Simple question,

What is a 9th place finish (something Richard did 3 times as well as a 2,4,5 and a 10th) in a 6 team league equate to roughly in the 90's NHL.

Put another year, fedorov's first year with the ducks he was 29th in scoring in a 30 team league, is that equatable with a 9th or 10th place finish in a 6 team league?
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,247
10,126
Henri Richard barely played on the PP, and his stats are still quite a bit better than Fedorov's.

We actually don't know that it's an assumption based on his PPP.

For Fedorov we have a much better idea on his usauge.

Richard does have that decade where he scored more ES points than anyone but he is hardly a much clearly better offensive player the top 10 scoring isn't reliable in comparing a 6 team player to a 21 to 30 team player.

Percentile methods like VsX show this.

VsX in a 6 team league still isn't the same as in a 20 to 30 team league as there is more chance for variance and more competition for top scoring spots right?

VsX is great at comparing apples with apples, ie within eras but it's not perfect.

I'm making this post for future readers, not for posters who obviously don't care for hockey that happened before they started personally watching.

Really you just can't help yourself can you?

I don't make assumptions on your views, kindly do the same for others it will help your case.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,134
6,429
Nowwwwww we want more Canadiens...? ;)
Just because I have been wrongly accused of anti-Habs bias, doesn't mean it's true.

My first hockey hero was Dryden. I went out of my way to shake his hand and it's a highlight of my fandom. My second hockey hero was Robinson. My 3rd was Langway (that's why i instantly became a Caps fan in middle school in 1982)...

I am a lifelong Habs fan. (Of course there are a half dozen - no more - other teams I'm a fan of.)

But I have seen some myopic Habs fans hereabouts.

I scoff at the high Plante ranking and low Geoffrion ranking. I do it first and foremost as a hockey fan.

I grew up with an anti-Bruins bias in my bones (though so many good Boston-Montreal games were watched by my family huddled around the TV in the 1970's that I have respect for them as quality also-rans (I barely remember the end of the Orr years).

Then, after that era, my awe at Bourque is the same as my appreciation for Yzerman (gawd i always rooted against those franchises but man i hoped those individuals would have a good game).

Anyways,... please put any anti-Habs comments about me in a can and throw it in the river. K?
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
11,845
6,290
I like Selänne and he was fantastic at what he did, but the gap between him and Fedorov on the list right now is not reasonable and does not reflect their respective values at their respective primes. Not a lot of (any?) GMs would have made a player/player swap if they sat on Fedorov and were offered Selänne.
 

ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
2,095
1,381
AnyWorld/I'mWelcomeTo
It's hard to correct some past HfBoard voting wrongs when many submitted initial top120 lists heavily influenced by past lists.
We should be able to argue for: Stuart, Gerard, Stewart, Cowley, Maltsev.... but we can't.
Not a lot I can do about players I'd like to talk about. For instance, I have four non-NHL Europeans in the 66-82 range... and it wouldn't surprise me if all of them were left off The List. Only one has drawn a couple of brief mentions- Martinec.

All I can do is make the best list I can according to my understanding, discuss the players before us as they come up, and revise my understanding based on the additional knowledge I take in during the discussions.

Heck, we have yet to see Joe Malone.
My first thought was- must be distracting to stay current in the Top-100 project AND put together an awesome ATD-Team. I think you're killing it. Then again, I think BenchBrawl's killing it, too. I also expect TDMM to stand pretty tall there in the Group of Death. [I'd give a hat-tip to Beast, as well... but he's not talking to us right now.]
And how could Fedorov be inducted and we not even get to consider Elmer Lach?!
To review, Fedorov's not going through this Round. That's been made clear. So, to parallel my earlier comment during the Lidström discussions, I'll have at least another Round of some "G_d save me from my allies" moments- and pray that he squeaks through next time.
 
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