Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[The Macho King]

And a hell of a left winger earlier in his career in the WHA. Still played their occasionally in the NHL with Hartford.

I have him ranked higher than you do.

Yeah this was my first try at the list. I'm going to do some editing over the weekend because I know its going to change a lot.

 

[Nick Hansen]

One of those players you really had to see play to appreciate his game.

I'd rather him than Cournoyer, who was on the NHL top 100 list for some reason.

 

[The Macho King]

Another borderline case I'd like to get opinions on - Marty St. Louis. 2 Art Ross trophies (although weak ones all considered), late bloomer, but was consistently one of the best RW in the game from 03-13. 5 postseason all-stars, plus Hart, Pearson, and 2 other top 10 Hart finishes.

Great playoff resume to boot (was PPG before his last couple of seasons with the Rangers).

 

[BadgerBruce]

Am I crazy for wanting to put Mark Howe on my 120? I have him right around 100 right now. 8 times top 10 in Norris voting (and at least one of those is one of the biggest robberies in the history of the award), and has an argument for the third best Dman of that era. His WHA career was pretty damn solid.

No, not in the least bit crazy.

A few weeks ago, I made the following post in a thread about “Most Significant Player Transformations: https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/most-significant-player-transformations.2521079/page-2

“Imagine being a 16 year old named to your country’s Olympic team as a left winger ..... moving on to captain a Memorial Cup winner as a left winger ..... turning pro at 18 and winning two consecutive league championships and Rookie of the Year honours as a left winger ..... being named to Canada’s ‘74 Summit Series team as an 18 year old and putting up more points than any left winger not named Hull, Yakushev or Kharlamov .....playing 6 full pro seasons as an all-star left winger and leaving the league as the 3rd most offensively productive left winger in the league’s history .....

And then, just a handful of games into your first NHL season, seeing your name on the chalkboard as a defenceman. You make the transition and have a Hall of Fame career on the blue line.

That’s Mark Howe.”

If you are bored one evening, the 74 Summit Series is available on YouTube. Watch game #2 — Mark Howe is inserted into the lineup in place of Marc Tardif. The game ends up a 4-1 Canada win but several things stand out: how freakin’ good 46 year old Gordie still is, and what a wonderful skater Mark is. They actually team up to setup 37 year old Ralph Backstrom on a lovely goal.

Anyway, I don’t participate in player ranking projects, but if I did .....Mark Howe is in my 120 list all day long.

 

[Michael Farkas]

FYI: I have access to the New York Times archive. Just in case anyone is looking for anything in particular...

 

[Sentinel]

Howe is on my list.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Some evidence that Bobby Hull and Alexander Ovechkin have more similarities than we thought perhaps...

Bobby Hull double-shifted and force-fed to try to capture scoring title over Andy Bathgate. This from the NY Times March 25, 1962

 

[Canadiens1958]

Some evidence that Bobby Hull and Alexander Ovechkin have more similarities than we thought perhaps...

Bobby Hull double-shifted and force-fed to try to capture scoring title over Andy Bathgate. This from the NY Times March 25, 1962

Nice find. At least there was money and prestige in play. Bathgate had extra shifts as well.

Hull did get his 50th less than five minutes in then was shutdown, Bathgate scored about five minutes later. Harvey had a good game.

Flyers History - Philadelphia Flyer Game Summary

March 26, 1962 The Gazette, reported on both games with each players TOI per the league:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Could not imbed page so you have to scroll to page 21.

 

[MXD]

Another borderline case I'd like to get opinions on - Marty St. Louis. 2 Art Ross trophies (although weak ones all considered), late bloomer, but was consistently one of the best RW in the game from 03-13. 5 postseason all-stars, plus Hart, Pearson, and 2 other top 10 Hart finishes.

Great playoff resume to boot (was PPG before his last couple of seasons with the Rangers).

Martin St-Louis will make my list, though anyone having a slight clue about my posting history was already aware. He's in the Kurri range, for all I care.

 

[Batis]

One player who in my opinion was very underrated during the Wingers project is Anatoly Firsov. During the Non-NHL Europeans project Firsov was finally ranked in the tier where he belongs as he placed in between Kharlamov and Tretiak. In my opinion there is no doubt about that Firsov belongs in the same tier as Kharlamov no matter which one of them one prefers.

Voting record:

Soviet player of the year voting:

Considering that the Soviet player of the year award first was awarded during Firsovs 26-year old season his voting record really is exceptionally strong. This post here below is actually about Starshinov but it really shows how Firsov dominated the Soviet player of the year voting in the years leading up to the Summit Series.

For what its worth here is the top 5 among forwards when it comes to Soviet player of the year voting shares during the 5 seasons leading up to the Summit Series (67/68-71/72).

1. Anatoli Firsov: 209,2
2. Alexander Maltsev: 160,5
3. Valeri Kharlamov: 142,8
4. Vyacheslav Starshinov: 132,0
5. (Undrafted player): 77,2

Other notable forwards.

Alexander Yakushev 23,9
Boris Mikhailov: 20,7
Vladimir Petrov: 2,5

Now the new generation of Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Petrov, Maltsev and Yakushev did not really start to hit their stride until the 68/69 season but on the other hand Starshinov was clearly out of his prime at the time of the 71/72 season. So to make it more of a head to head comparison lets only look at the 68/69-70/71 time frame.

1. Anatoli Firsov: 110,3
2. Alexander Maltsev: 88,3
3. Vyacheslav Starshinov: 77,1
4. Valeri Kharlamov: 70,6
5. (Undrafted player): 57.8

Boris Mikhailov: 20.7
Alexander Yakushev: 13,3
Vladimir Petrov: 2,5

This is how Firsov does when it comes to peak Soviet player of the year voting.

Soviet player of the year voting shares (3-year averages among forwards).
1. Makarov 0.747
2. Firsov 0.650
3. Krutov 0.630
4. Kharlamov 0.628

It should also be pointed out that the Soviet player of the year award had not yet been created during what arguably was Firsovs strongest season in 66/67. Had the voting been conducted that season I find it likely that Firsov could have rivaled Makarov for having the strongest 3-year average.

International scoring:

Firsovs scoring in major and minor international tournaments is very impressive and along with Makarov, Kharlamov and perhaps Maltsev he definitely belongs to the first tier in that regard.. Here you can get a look at how Firsov compares to Soviet and Czechoslovakian players there.

Major and Minor International Tournaments 1964/65 (WHC, Braun Memorial)
1. Alexander Almetov: 11 gp, 10 g, 7 a, 17 pts
1. Jozef Golonka: 11 gp, 8 g, 9 a, 17 pts
3. Konstantin Loktev: 10 gp, 9 g, 6 a, 15 pts
4. Veniamin Alexandrov: 11 gp, 7 g, 7 a, 14 pts
5. Anatoly Firsov: 9 gp, 9 g, 4 a, 13 pts
5. Jaroslav Jirik: 9 gp, 9 g, 4 a, 13 pts
7. Vyacheslav Starshinov: 10 gp, 9 g, 2 a, 11 pts
7. Josef Cerny: 10 gp, 6 g, 5 a, 11 pts
7. Viktor Yakushev: 10 gp, 5 g, 6 a, 11 pts
10. Vaclav Nedomansky: 11 gp, 6 g, 3 a, 9 pts
10. Frantisek Sevcik: 10 gp, 4 g, 5 a, 9 pts

Major and Minor International Tournaments 1965/66 (WHC, Braun Memorial)
1. Veniamin Alexandrov: 10 gp, 10 g, 8 a, 18 pts
1. Viktor Yakushev: 10 gp, 3 g, 15 a, 18 pts
3. Alexander Almetov: 10 gp, 7 g, 8 a, 15 pts
4. Vyacheslav Starshinov: 9 gp, 13 g, 1 a, 14 pts
5. Vaclav Nedomansky: 10 gp, 9 g, 3 a, 12 pts
6. Stanislav Pryl: 9 gp, 6 g, 5 a, 11 pts
7. Konstantin Loktev: 10 gp, 5 g, 5 a, 10 pts
8. Jozef Golonka: 10 gp, 3 g, 6 a, 9 pts
9. Vladimir Brezhnev: 10 gp, 5 g, 3 a, 8 pts
10. Anatoly Firsov: 8 gp, 4 g, 3 a, 7 pts
10. Boris Mayorov: 9 gp, 3 g, 4 a, 7 pts

Major and Minor International Tournaments scoring in 1966/67 (WHC, Centennial Trophy)
1. Anatoly Firsov: 10 gp, 11 g, 12 a, 23 pts
2. Victor Polupanov: 10 gp, 13 g, 9 a, 22 pts
3. Alexander Almetov: 9 gp, 9 g, 7 a, 16 pts
3. Veniamin Alexandrov: 9 gp, 8 g, 8 a, 16 pts
5. Vladimir Vikulov: 10 gp, 7 g, 6 a, 13 pts
6. Jaroslav Holik: 9 gp, 4 g, 8 a, 12 pts
7. Jan Havel: 9 gp, 6 g, 5 a, 11 pts
7. Jozef Golonka: 7 gp, 5 g, 6 a, 11 pts
9. Vaclav Nedomansky: 10 gp, 7 g, 2 a, 9 pts
10. Jaroslav Jirik: 6 gp, 4 g, 4 a, 8 pts
10. Viktor Yakushev: 9 gp, 2 g, 6 a, 8 pts
10. Alexander Ragulin: 10 gp, 2 g, 6 a, 8 pts

Major and Minor International Tournaments 1967/68 (WOG, Izvestia Trophy)
1. Anatoly Firsov: 12 gp, 15 g, 6 a, 21 pts
2. Vyacheslav Starshinov: 11 gp, 10 g, 6 a, 16 pts
3. Vladimir Vikulov: 11 gp, 4 g, 11 a, 15 pts
4. Viktor Polupanov: 11 gp, 8 g, 6 a, 14 pts
5. Jaroslav Jirik: 9 gp, 6 g, 6 a, 12 pts
5. Jozef Golonka: 12 gp, 5 g, 7 a, 12 pts
7. Yevgeny Mishakov: 11 gp, 9 g, 1 a, 10 pts
7. Jan Havel: 12 gp, 7 g, 3 a, 10 pts
7. Viktor Blinov: 12 gp, 6 g, 4 a, 10 pts
7. Jan Hrbaty: 12 gp, 3 g, 7 a, 10 pts

Major and Minor International Tournaments 1968/69 (WHC)
1. Anatoly Firsov 10 gp, 10 g, 4 a, 14 pts
1. Boris Mikhailov 9 gp, 9 g, 5 a, 14 pts
1. Jaroslav Holik 10 gp, 4 g, 10 a, 14 pts
4. Valery Kharlamov 10 gp, 6 g, 7 a, 13 pts
5. Vaclav Nedomansky 10 gp, 9 g, 2 a, 11 pts
5. Alexander Maltsev 10 gp, 5 g, 6 a, 11 pts
7. Jan Suchy 8 gp, 5 g, 4 a, 9 pts
8. Vladimir Petrov 10 gp, 6 g, 2 a, 8 pts
8. Jiri Holik 9 gp, 4 g, 4 a, 8 pts
10. Vyacheslav Starshinov 10 gp, 6 g, 1 a, 7 pts
10. Yevgeny Mishakov 9 gp, 4 g, 3 a, 7 pts
10. Yevgeny Paladyev 10 g, 4 g, 3 a, 7 pts

Major and Minor International Tournaments 1969/70 (WHC, Izvestia Trophy)
1. Alexander Maltsev 14 gp, 17 g, 6 a, 23 pts
2. Vaclav Nedomansky 15 gp, 14 g, 7 a, 21 pts
3. Anatoly Firsov 12 gp, 6 g, 10 a, 16 pts
4. Vladimir Vikulov 14 gp, 10 g, 5 a, 15 pts
4. Jan Suchy 10 gp, 8 g, 7 a, 15 pts
6. Boris Mikhailov 14 gp, 11 g, 3 a, 14 pts
7. Valery Kharlamov 13 gp, 9 g, 3 a, 12 pts
8. Vladimir Petrov 14 gp, 8 g, 3 a, 11 pts
9. Richard Farda 15 gp, 7 g, 3 a, 10 pts
10. Vyacheslav Starshinov 13 gp, 6 g, 3 a, 9 pts
10. Jiri Holik 14 gp, 6 g, 3 a, 9 pts

Major and Minor International Tournaments 1970/71 (WHC, Izvestia Trophy)
1. Anatoly Firsov 14 gp, 14 g, 10 a, 24 pts
2. Valery Kharlamov 13 gp, 7 g, 14 a, 21 pts
3. Alexander Maltsev 14 gp, 12 g, 8 a, 20 pts
4. Vladimir Vikulov 14 gp, 10 g, 7 a, 17 pts
5. Vladimir Petrov 12 gp, 10 g, 3 a, 13 pts
5. Richard Farda 14 gp, 6 g, 7 a, 13 pts
5. Vyacheslav Starshinov 13 gp, 4 g, 9 a, 13 pts
8. Jiri Holik 14 gp, 5 g, 6 a, 11 pts
9. Ivan Hlinka 14 gp, 8 g, 2 a, 10 pts
9. Boris Mikhailov 12 gp, 7 g, 3 a, 10 pts

Since I also wanted to analyze the numbers posted by the the top players I decided to take a look at how they compared to the field (the average score of the 2nd-10th scorer) over their 5 strongest seasons.

5-season Vs2-10 average among Soviet and Czechoslovakian players in Major and Minor International Tournaments during the 64/65-88/89 time frame:

1. Sergey Makarov: 154.4
2. Anatoly Firsov: 153.5
3. Valery Kharlamov: 147.6
4. Vladimir Krutov: 145.6
5. Alexander Maltsev: 144.7
6. Boris Mikhailov: 144.1
7. Vladimir Petrov: 140.7
8. Vyacheslav Fetisov: 119.1
9. Vladimir Vikulov: 118.7
10. Vladimir Martinec: 118.0
11. Vaclav Nedomansky: 115.4
12. Igor Larionov: 105.5
13. Vyacheslav Starshinov: 99.6
14. Alexander Yakushev: 98.7
15. Ivan Hlinka: 98.5

Regular season scoring:

While Firsovs regular season scoring is rather impressive as well it is clearly not on the same very high level as his international scoring. In the Twenty Years of Soviet Hockey thread Sturminator calculated Firsovs 7-year Vs2 score from the 60/61-69/70 time frame to be 96.7. These numbers included the very stingy assist records from the 60's Soviet League which were not part of the official scoring race which was decided by goals only up until the 70/71 season.

Firsov:
138, 100, 100, 94, 92, 83, 70
Total: 677
7-season average: 96.7

One of Firsovs 7 strongest Vs2 scores came during the 72/73 season though where he had a score of 82.5. So if we include that into the numbers above we can see that Firsovs overall Soviet League 7-year Vs2 is 98.5. When we take into account how stingely awarded the assists were in the Soviet League in the 60's and that Firsov was a clearly superior playmaker than his main threat in the scoring race (Starshinov) during the late 60's I think that we can fairly assume that Firsovs 7-year Vs2 probably would have at least been somewhere in the 100-105 range had assists been awarded more often.

Ability to prevent the opponents from scoring:

During the Top-50 Non-NHL European project it was brought up by VMBM that Firsov not was on the ice for a single goal against during the 1969 WHC and only for one goal against during the 1972 Olympics.

This made me want to look at whether Firsovs ability to prevent goals against would be possible to see during the available games on youtube too. And it turned out that it was. In the available games with Firsov he was only on the ice for 1 goal against at even strenght (against Sweden in 1968) and 1 goal against while penalty killing (against West Germany in 1968). So all in all only 2 goals against during approximately 11 games. As a comparison the Mikhailov, Petrov and Kharlamov line was on the ice for more goals against during these games even if they only played in 4 of them.

If we add the remaining 8 games from the 1969 WHC which are not available on youtube and the 5 games from the 1972 Olympics to the 11 available games we see that Firsov only was on the ice for 3 goals against during a sample size of 24 games. So in my opinion we have a very good reason to believe that Firsov had some abilities which often helped him and his linemates to prevent the other team from scoring while he was on the ice.

Based on watching these games focusing on him I would personally say that one of Firsovs most important qualities when it came to prevent the other teams from scoring was his ability to help out his defencemen with the transition from defence to offence by giving them support along the boards and make great passes from his own zone. Firsov also had the ability to use his stickwork to steal pucks from his opponents and regain puck possession for his team. Firsov was also a player who was not afraid to get his nose dirty. He was a hard worker along the boards both offensively and defensively and he was most of the time very responsible on the backcheck when he had to cover up for when some player had been caught out of position.

Penalty killing:

Additionally Firsov was in my opinion one of the 10 best penalty killers among Soviet forwards. Here is the post about Firsov from the Soviet penalty killing study.

4. Anatoly Firsov
Ice time finishes: 1st at the 1967 WHC, 2nd at the 1969 WHC, Tied for 3rd at the 1964 WOG, Tied for 3rd at the 1968 WOG
Overall stats: 1 goal forward, 1 goal against over 17 min, 50 sec

Anatoly Firsov was such a talented, elegant and intelligent player that he at times could make playing shorthanded look like the easiest thing in the world. In this I include both his ability to play keep-away with the puck and his ability to pick the pocket of the opponents. Based on the available sample I would also say that Firsov just like Starshinov probably belongs among the very greatest Soviet forwards of all time when it comes to killing penalties 3 on 5.

Firsovs goal differential stats of 1 goal forward and 1 goal against over 17 minutes and 50 seconds of shorthanded ice time is also impressive and an indication of his ability to frustrate the opponents powerplay units with his combination of skating, stickhandling (both offensively and defensively), creative passing and hard work.

While I do rank Almetov, Loktev and Starshinov ahead of Firsov when it comes to penalty killing he is definitely not far behind them and at his absolute best moments he may very well have been the most outstanding Soviet penalty killer of the 60's.


Brilliant 3 on 5 shift from Firsov against Czechoslovakia at the 1967 WHC where he both plays a strong defensive game, kills off time on the clock with puck possession and even manages to make Nedomansky take a penalty. Yes very cheap penalty call on Nedomansky but still a brilliant shift from Firsov.


Here Firsov almost scores a great shorthanded goal against Czechoslovakia at the 1967 WHC after picking Pospisils pocket.


Another very strong shorthanded shift from Firsov where he on a couple of occasions shows his confidence and skills with the puck. Just look at his trademark move at the end of the shift to skate the puck out of the zone.

If someone wants to get a even deeper look into Firsovs career and his style of play I would recommend this excellent bio from Theokritos https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/140504759/ https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/140664535/ as well as my video study of Firsov which is linked to in the first part of that bio.

 

[DannyGallivan]

No, not in the least bit crazy.

A few weeks ago, I made the following post in a thread about “Most Significant Player Transformations: https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/most-significant-player-transformations.2521079/page-2

“Imagine being a 16 year old named to your country’s Olympic team as a left winger ..... moving on to captain a Memorial Cup winner as a left winger ..... turning pro at 18 and winning two consecutive league championships and Rookie of the Year honours as a left winger ..... being named to Canada’s ‘74 Summit Series team as an 18 year old and putting up more points than any left winger not named Hull, Yakushev or Kharlamov .....playing 6 full pro seasons as an all-star left winger and leaving the league as the 3rd most offensively productive left winger in the league’s history .....

And then, just a handful of games into your first NHL season, seeing your name on the chalkboard as a defenceman. You make the transition and have a Hall of Fame career on the blue line.

That’s Mark Howe.”

If you are bored one evening, the 74 Summit Series is available on YouTube. Watch game #2 — Mark Howe is inserted into the lineup in place of Marc Tardif. The game ends up a 4-1 Canada win but several things stand out: how freakin’ good 46 year old Gordie still is, and what a wonderful skater Mark is. They actually team up to setup 37 year old Ralph Backstrom on a lovely goal.

Anyway, I don’t participate in player ranking projects, but if I did .....Mark Howe is in my 120 list all day long.

Mark Howe is on my list... number 92 (between Borje Salming and Larionov).

 

[DannyGallivan]

Jacques Lemaire?

He never received an ounce of consideration from me

He made my initial list at the very bottom. Since then, he's been one of several players who've been pushed out of the top 120 for me (a list that includes, in no particular order, Vachon, Shutt, Barber, Toews, Nieuendyk, Ratelle, Zetterberg, Worsley, Rod Gilbert, Belfour, Doug Bentley, Sprague Cleghorn...)

 

[ResilientBeast]

St Louis is for sure on my list and so is Howe.

I'm trying to find room for Bowie. I'm trying to make my list have a representative from every era. I could use another Pre-NHA player, I've got Tommy Phillips in there and want to make room for Bowie.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Zero Days of Rest for goalies, 1936-37 thru 2014-15 or Broda to Brodeur.

Data culled from:

NHL.com - Stats

Preamble. Look at goalie performance when playing games on consecutive days, witout a day of rest in between. Core years, with spillage included. Brimsek 1938-39 & 1949-50 are included in 1940's, etc.

Data points include only the data available for all.

Introductory comments.

Biggest concentration was during the O6, single goalie era due to the requirements of TV and the scarcity of Monday and Friday games. Post 1967 expansion, the NHLPA in various CBAs has reduced
the frequency of such combos. Today with some teams carrying three goalies, the frequency is reduced further.

No differation is made between the various combos of three games in four nights. The old, pre 1967 expansion strings of four games in five nights are viewed as two strings of zero days rest. 4 in 5 is not allowed under the CBA since almost two generations.

Biggest impact on O6 Leaf goals since virtually all second games were road games. Canadien goalies faced roughly a 1H to 5A ratio. American based teams saw their goalies enjoy a 2A to 3H ratio but also the only 2A strings.

1940's
Brimsek: 101G, 40W-44L-17T, 2.92GAA,5S.
Broda: 172G, 66W-75L-31T, 2.80GAA,17S.
Durnan: 109G, 50W-42L-17T, 2.62GAA,8S
Rayner: 111G, 36W-56L-19T, 3.16GAA,1S.

1950s/1960s
Bower: 158G, 63W-75L-20T, 2.59GAA,7S.
Hall: 237G, 106W-84L-45T, 2.52GAA,18S
Lumley: 252G, 90W-112L-49T, 2.65GAA,7S.
Plante: 215G, 96W-76L-42T, 2.60GAA,16S.
Sawchuk: 277G, 136W-88L-49T, 2.48GAA,28S
Worsley: 237G, 98W-96L-38T, 2.89GAA, 13S

1970s
Dryden: 66G, 35W-14L-13T, 2.41GAA,8S
Esposito: 179G, 93W-59L-25T, 2.79GAA,11S.
Parent: 112G, 52W-34L-24T, 2.60GAA,12S.

1980s PLUS
Belfour: 106G, 57W-33L-12/1, 2.52GAA.
Brodeur: 180G, 93W-70L-9/7, 2.28GAA,16S.
Hasek: 103G, 49W-45L-9T, 2.44GAA,12S.
Roy: 91G, 43W-31L-14T, 2.76GAA,4S.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Jacques Lemaire?

He never received an ounce of consideration from me

I see Lemaire as one of the all-time great "glue guys". Similar to Kurri letting Gretzky do his thing offensively, Lemaire enabled Lafleur to run wild offensively. He had some absolutely great playoff performances pre-Lafleur as well. Took off as Montreal's #1 C once he was shifted from the wing, and they won the Cup more often than not. This player won too often as a prominent part of his teams to not receive serious top 100 consideration from me. I think the Toews comparison BenchBrawl made is appropriate. Like Toews, there are instances where Lemaire had to be the #1C both offensively and defensively for Montreal to win, and win they did.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I see Lemaire as one of the all-time great "glue guys". Similar to Kurri letting Gretzky do his thing offensively, Lemaire enabled Lafleur to run wild offensively. He had some absolutely great playoff performances pre-Lafleur as well. Took off as Montreal's #1 C once he was shifted from the wing, and they won the Cup more often than not. This player won too often as a prominent part of his teams to not receive serious top 100 consideration from me. I think the Toews comparison BenchBrawl made is appropriate. Like Toews, there are instances where Lemaire had to be the #1C both offensively and defensively for Montreal to win, and win they did.

I just have a hard time seeing someone who did that be a top 100 player of all time.

I've got Kurri hovering around 100 and I could see him falling into the 110s by the time I submit my list.

Without strictly resorting to using past HOH projects to inform this one he was voted 59th in the centers project. I just don't see what warrants him jumping a lot of the centers on that list for this project.

The lowest guy from that project I have on my list is Bowie and he's there for diversity and recognition.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I just have a hard time seeing someone who did that be a top 100 player of all time.

I've got Kurri hovering around 100 and I could see him falling into the 110s by the time I submit my list.

Without strictly resorting to using past HOH projects to inform this one he was voted 59th in the centers project. I just don't see what warrants him jumping a lot of the centers on that list for this project.

The lowest guy from that project I have on my list is Bowie and he's there for diversity and recognition.

To be fair, I haven't started actually constructing my list yet. I could very well hit 100 names and realize I over-estimated how high Kurri and/or Lemaire were going to place. So I should probably ease off on declaring who will/won't be on my list until I get more of the ground work laid out.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Martin St-Louis will make my list, though anyone having a slight clue about my posting history was already aware. He's in the Kurri range, for all I care.

Got Marty at number 84 currently. Kurri is 79 right now.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Got Marty at number 84 currently. Kurri is 79 right now.

I've got Marty one spot ahead of you and Kurri down at 103

Right now the only RWs between them are Iginla and Kane

 

[Canadiens1958]

I've got Marty one spot ahead of you and Kurri down at 103

Right now the only RWs between them are Iginla and Kane

Iginla and Patrick Kane top 100? Kurri 103?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Iginla and Patrick Kane top 100? Kurri 103?

It's still being massaged down, Iginla and Kane peaked higher than Kurri did. Could Kurri win the Art Ross in a world without Gretzky? What about a Lindsay/Peason? What about being nominated/winning a Hart?

Kurri will probably squeak just into my top 100 when I'm submitting. I'm still trying to sort out the order by position first and then work on interpositional debates more aggressively

 

[PenguinSpeed]

Iginla and Patrick Kane top 100? Kurri 103?

-Kurri shouldnt even be a Top 100 player. He played in the highest scoring era in NHL history. He played with a Top 2 or the best player in NHL history. He barely averaged 1 point per game. His trophy case is naked outside of a memorial trophy. Here is a perfect example of another player living off a superior player (Gretzky) coattails. But he has 5 Cups and played on an All Star team in Edmonton loaded with Hall of famers.


-Patrick Kane is so superior to Kurri its not even funny. If Kane played on a stacked hall of fame roster like Edmonton with terrible goalkeeping in the early 80s his numbers would skyrocket.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Does anybody have Shanahan on their list?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Does anybody have Shanahan on their list?

Thought a little about him, instead I've got Kariya at 120 and I'd need Shanahan to be behind him.

 

[Canadiens1958]

-Kurri shouldnt even be a Top 100 player. He played in the highest scoring era in NHL history. He played with a Top 2 or the best player in NHL history. He barely averaged 1 point per game. His trophy case is naked outside of a memorial trophy. Here is a perfect example of another player living off a superior player (Gretzky) coattails. But he has 5 Cups and played on an All Star team in Edmonton loaded with Hall of famers.


-Patrick Kane is so superior to Kurri its not even funny. If Kane played on a stacked hall of fame roster like Edmonton with terrible goalkeeping in the early 80s his numbers would skyrocket.

Yet nobody did so better, nor was able to replace Kurri.

Patrick Kane, faster version of Phil Kessel with the added sense to cluster points to one season.