Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Nick Hansen]

I don’t think it’s positional bias; he missed the playoffs in 2015-16 which always hurts players in MVP voting. The very next season, both he and Brent Burns went top-5 in Hart voting. If we’re looking at the two Norris years, he’s behind a teammate in voting in 2011-12 and had an ice-cold first half of 2014-15 on defense that hurt him, before turning on the jets in February.

I’m not seeing positional bias, but instead a player that was robbed because Ottawa was really bad in 2015-16.

Explain 14-15. (Price winning is not the problem)

Spezza being voted ahead...yeah, take it for what it is, will ya? That was early in his career and EK wasn't quite recognized for what he was.

 

[Johnny Engine]

-Please post a link with a statistical break down of every single player of players retiring early to say my claim is wrong. I want to see a link to prove me wrong

-Also, the other poster should bring the new VSX numbers to the table, 31 years age and younger. I feel its valuable. The VSX is valuable since multiple people told me to look at it. I looked at it. I like it. I also like the fact VSX looks just like my era adjusted numbers.

I don't know what you mean by "player of players", so I can't help you with that, but I can show you that in 1966-67 (before expansion made it easier to hold a job), 21 of the 157 NHL players were born in 1932 or earlier. With 6 new teams looking for players the next year, there were 37 born in 1933 or earlier.
In other years during the Original 6, it's lower (usually only a half dozen or so per year), but that isn't far off percentage-wise to this year, where 55 out of the 890 NHL players were born in 1983 or earlier.

Anyway, historically you have to be a pretty good, or pretty resilient athlete to play past age 35, so you won't find dozens of examples every year, but you said it didn't happen, and you're wrong about that.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Classic YT-generation thoughts: "Player X can't be *that* good.. he had player Y as a linemate."

Fails on nuance, fundamentals and proper talent evaluation. Casual fan/bar logic.

Montana/Young to Rice, et al

 

[quoipourquoi]

Explain 14-15. (Price winning is not the problem)

He was a minus player through February and being heavily criticized in a season where everyone expected Mark Giordano to win until injury?

Spezza being voted ahead...yeah, take it for what it is, will ya? That was early in his career and EK wasn't quite recognized for what he was.

Who was it that said Karlsson’s reel doubled as a Spezza highlight reel? @vadim sharifijanov ?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Who was it that said Karlsson’s reel doubled as a Spezza highlight reel? @vadim sharifijanov ?

not me, but here's the post

as guineapig says, interested parties can watch the video for themselves

 

[Nick Hansen]

He was a minus player through February and being heavily criticized in a season where everyone expected Mark Giordano to win until injury?



Who was it that said Karlsson’s reel doubled as a Spezza highlight reel? @vadim sharifijanov ?

Decent enough. Where is he on your top 100 list?

 

[ResilientBeast]

-Please post a link with a statistical break down of every single player of players retiring early to say my claim is wrong. I want to see a link to prove me wrong

-Also, the other poster should bring the new VSX numbers to the table, 31 years age and younger. I feel its valuable. The VSX is valuable since multiple people told me to look at it. I looked at it. I like it. I also like the fact VSX looks just like my era adjusted numbers.

You're also just using VsX for PPG, which isn't sufficient on it's own

 

[PenguinSpeed]

You're also just using VsX for PPG, which isn't sufficient on it's own

-Im not using it for anything subjective. Best 7 years, best 10 years, Thats all subjective. Career Totals, There is no opinion in that equation. Stats up to 31 years old. There is no opinion in that equation.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Decent enough. Where is he on your top 100 list?

80s. If he had a better year last year, I probably would have just said “whatever” and went top-50 because the writing is on the wall with that guy. As far as I’m concerned, he was the best defenseman four times and a top-3 player twice and the best player in the 2017 playoffs. Wherever he goes is guaranteed to be outdated real fast.

 

[Nick Hansen]

80s. If he had a better year last year, I probably would have just said “whatever” and went top-50 because the writing is on the wall with that guy. As far as I’m concerned, he was the best defenseman four times and a top-3 player twice and the best player in the 2017 playoffs. Wherever he goes is guaranteed to be outdated real fast.

Yeah, I have the same opinion...the guy is an all-time talent. Very obvious. Just a shame with the injuries, especially the Cooke garbage (and no, I won't ever see that as an accident, he doesn't deserve that).

 

[Michael Farkas]

The opinion and subjectivity is how you interpret and weigh the statistics...you can't just go "I'm being objective, I am using a statistic!" - that is something a college freshman comes home and tells their little sister at Christmas...

 

[Sentinel]

-Kurri's career is 1.11. He also had Gretzky and Robitaille in LA. But they couldnt win Cups in LA without 4 other All Star Hall of Famers lifting the load too.

So many things wrong here. Do you really expect LA to win with Kelly Hrudey in goal? Against Patrick Roy? Plus, do you know how many miles did Gretzky and Kurri had by that point?

-As for Kane, An Art Ross, Calder, Memorial, Conn Smythe, Lindsay, World Cup Gold Medal and WC MVP award. Top 15 all time in ERA adjusted points per game, Top 4 among all active players in ppg and playoff ppg.

The only things that matter are Art Ross and Conn Smythe. You forgot Hart, btw.

When did Kane win the World Cup? Must've missed it.

Kane's closet is pretty loaded with awards. And his Points per game and playoff points per game numbers are solid. And, unlike other players that have a peak of 5 or 6 great years then their stats fall off a cliff, Kane is the definition of consistency.

One great season + one great playoffs = \ = "consistency".

 

[Sentinel]

32. Malkin
42. Forsberg
107. Keith

Karlsson and Shanahan: solid "NO."

 

[Canadiens1958]

-Replace in which way? How many elite hall of fame players does one team need? Messier, Coffey, Fuhr, Gretzky, Anderson?


-Crosby has Malkin and no other hall of famers or Top 100 players in his cup runs. Kane had Toews and Keith and maybe Hossa if you want to slide him in there, no where near Gretzky and Messier caliber talents. The Oilers have All Star Hall of Famers at every single position on the ice. I would love to switch out players on certain teams and see what happens.

Old truism.Never enough good health, fun or great players.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

-Kurri shouldnt even be a Top 100 player. He played in the highest scoring era in NHL history. He played with a Top 2 or the best player in NHL history. He barely averaged 1 point per game. His trophy case is naked outside of a memorial trophy. Here is a perfect example of another player living off a superior player (Gretzky) coattails. But he has 5 Cups and played on an All Star team in Edmonton loaded with Hall of famers.


-Patrick Kane is so superior to Kurri its not even funny. If Kane played on a stacked hall of fame roster like Edmonton with terrible goalkeeping in the early 80s his numbers would skyrocket.

Though Kane won a Conn Smythe trophy and 3 Cups, he's all of a +4 in the playoffs.

Kurri, on the other hand, has a +101 in the playoffs. That would rank as #1, just ahead of Larry Robinson. And he did it while playing wing on offense and center on defense most of the time.

 

[Nick Hansen]

32. Malkin
42. Forsberg
107. Keith

Karlsson and Shanahan: solid "NO."

Is Niedermayer on the top 100?

'Cause I believe Karlsson and Keith were or are greater.

I like the high placement of Malkin, though. Underrated player IMO. The peak he had was amazing.

 

[PenguinSpeed]

So many things wrong here. Do you really expect LA to win with Kelly Hrudey in goal? Against Patrick Roy? Plus, do you know how many miles did Gretzky and Kurri had by that point?


The only things that matter are Art Ross and Conn Smythe. You forgot Hart, btw.

When did Kane win the World Cup? Must've missed it.


One great season + one great playoffs = \ = "consistency".

-Hrudley career save percentage was better then Tom Barasso (who is a borderline HOF player) . Also had Vezina votes in 9 different seasons he played. So thats an excuse

-World Championship MVP for Kane

-3 Stanley cups playing on the 3rd best franchise in the last 30 years. You dont win 3 Stanley cups in 6 years without some great players

 

[PenguinSpeed]

Though Kane won a Conn Smythe trophy and 3 Cups, he's all of a +4 in the playoffs.

Kurri, on the other hand, has a +101 in the playoffs. That would rank as #1, just ahead of Larry Robinson. And he did it while playing wing on offense and center on defense most of the time.

- + / - ranking means absolutely nothing and is one of the worst stats ever to use. The Penguins could put Crosby-Malkin-Kessel all on one line and tear up the NHL. We would also lose in the first round in the playoffs every year by doing so.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Speaking of Howe - Explain 50-51's Hart voting to me? Howe outscores the 2nd highest scorer by 20 points, wins the Art Ross and the (Retro) Rocket, his team leads the league in points, and somehow he's tied for third in Hart voting (with Red Kelly), behind Milt Schmidt (who was tied for 4th in points and 25 behind Howe) and Richard (who was second in goals and points - goals by 1 and points by 20). Also somehow Howe was 1st All-Star while Richard was 2nd All-Star. Boston also finished almost 40 points behind Detroit.

Was he penalized for playing on a stacked team (with Kelly and Sawchuk)? I don't see how he doesn't win the Hart there - seems like a funky award. Maybe Schmidt and Richard were just more comfortable votes rather than a 22 year old?

Edit: Meant to post this in the "Howe in the Big 4 Thread". My b.

Schmidt lead Boston, perceived non-playoff team to the playoffs.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

One player who in my opinion was very underrated during the Wingers project is Anatoly Firsov. During the Non-NHL Europeans project Firsov was finally ranked in the tier where he belongs as he placed in between Kharlamov and Tretiak. In my opinion there is no doubt about that Firsov belongs in the same tier as Kharlamov no matter which one of them one prefers.

Voting record:

Soviet player of the year voting:

Considering that the Soviet player of the year award first was awarded during Firsovs 26-year old season his voting record really is exceptionally strong. This post here below is actually about Starshinov but it really shows how Firsov dominated the Soviet player of the year voting in the years leading up to the Summit Series.



This is how Firsov does when it comes to peak Soviet player of the year voting.



It should also be pointed out that the Soviet player of the year award had not yet been created during what arguably was Firsovs strongest season in 66/67. Had the voting been conducted that season I find it likely that Firsov could have rivaled Makarov for having the strongest 3-year average.

International scoring:

Firsovs scoring in major and minor international tournaments is very impressive and along with Makarov, Kharlamov and perhaps Maltsev he definitely belongs to the first tier in that regard.. Here you can get a look at how Firsov compares to Soviet and Czechoslovakian players there.





Regular season scoring:

While Firsovs regular season scoring is rather impressive as well it is clearly not on the same very high level as his international scoring. In the Twenty Years of Soviet Hockey thread Sturminator calculated Firsovs 7-year Vs2 score from the 60/61-69/70 time frame to be 96.7. These numbers included the very stingy assist records from the 60's Soviet League which were not part of the official scoring race which was decided by goals only up until the 70/71 season.



One of Firsovs 7 strongest Vs2 scores came during the 72/73 season though where he had a score of 82.5. So if we include that into the numbers above we can see that Firsovs overall Soviet League 7-year Vs2 is 98.5. When we take into account how stingely awarded the assists were in the Soviet League in the 60's and that Firsov was a clearly superior playmaker than his main threat in the scoring race (Starshinov) during the late 60's I think that we can fairly assume that Firsovs 7-year Vs2 probably would have at least been somewhere in the 100-105 range had assists been awarded more often.

Ability to prevent the opponents from scoring:



Penalty killing:

Additionally Firsov was in my opinion one of the 10 best penalty killers among Soviet forwards. Here is the post about Firsov from the Soviet penalty killing study.



If someone wants to get a even deeper look into Firsovs career and his style of play I would recommend this excellent bio from Theokritos https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/140504759/ https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/140664535/ as well as my video study of Firsov which is linked to in the first part of that bio.

Great post.

Just wondering your opinion on Sven Tumba and Jan Suchy.

I had both on my original list but additions have forced them out.

 

[ResilientBeast]

- + / - ranking means absolutely nothing and is one of the worst stats ever to use. The Penguins could put Crosby-Malkin-Kessel all on one line and tear up the NHL. We would also lose in the first round in the playoffs every year by doing so.

Same with PPG....

 

[Sentinel]

-Hrudley career save percentage was better then Tom Barasso (who is a borderline HOF player) . Also had Vezina votes in 9 different seasons he played. So thats an excuse

Career save percentage means dick in a given season. Hrudey was no match for Barrasso (who actually WON Vezina) and especially for Roy.

Blaming Gretzky and Kurri for not winning the Cup in 1993 is ludicrous. Gretzky had the monster run that has not been matched since.

World Championship MVP for Kane

Not the same thing as World Cup.

-3 Stanley cups playing on the 3rd best franchise in the last 30 years. You dont win 3 Stanley cups in 6 years without some great players

What are the other two, I'm curious?
You know who else had 3 Stanley Cups in 6 years? Kirk Maltby.

 

[The Macho King]

Schmidt lead Boston, perceived non-playoff team to the playoffs.

When 4 teams in a 6 team league make it, and one of those teams is the Blackhawks at their nadir, is that really all that impressive? 66% of the league make it - there are bound to be random outliers getting a 4 seed every now and then. That logic is backwards in today's game when only 50% of the league makes it, especially when there is such a massive gap in the scoring between the two teams.

 

[Sentinel]

- + / - ranking means absolutely nothing and is one of the worst stats ever to use.

Right. Because you say so.

 

[Sentinel]

Is Niedermayer on the top 100?

'Cause I believe Karlsson and Keith were or are greater.

I like the high placement of Malkin, though. Underrated player IMO. The peak he had was amazing.

I am a big fan of Neidermeyer and have him at 86. Karlsson flat out sucks on defense (and no, Neidermeyer was better in that department).