Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (With a Vengeance)

[Dennis Bonvie]

No, there's really no reason to suspect it was any sort of "lifetime achievement award". Nighbor was in the running for the Hart again a couple seasons later. Trail of the Stanley Cup simply mentions that "Nighbor beat out Cleghorn by one voting point".

But, as stated before, he was only 4th on his own team in scoring (2 defensemen had more points). He also missed 4 games in a 24 game season. Teammate Cy Denneny led the league in scoring and goals. Nighbor wasn't top 5 in goals or assists.

Seems like they created the Hart Trophy to specifically give it to Nighbor.

 

[Canadiens1958]

But, as stated before, he was only 4th on his own team in scoring (2 defensemen had more points). He also missed 4 games in a 24 game season. Teammate Cy Denneny led the league in scoring and goals. Nighbor wasn't top 5 in goals or assists.

Seems like they created the Hart Trophy to specifically give it to Nighbor.

And the Lady Byng as well. Nighbor was a trophy industry.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Goaltenders: PEAK, Prime, Career. A high-peak goalie gives you a chance at a good old Cup-theft or two. Think Gardiner. Think Parent. Hašek almost got there.

As someone who has spent way too much time studying playoff goaltending, it’s more of a grab bag than just the high peak goaltender being the best bet to steal the Stanley Cup. In the four-round era, the 20 best statistical runs were mostly non-factors in the Vezina race:

Top Four-Round Performances (EvE), 1975-2017
1. Patrick Roy, 1993 (55.7% on 647 shots)
2. John Vanbiesbrouck, 1996 (58.8% on 735 shots)
3. John Davidson, 1979 (59.2% on 535 shots)
4. Jean-Sebastien Giguere, 2003 (59.3% on 697 shots)
5. Tuukka Rask, 2013 (59.4% on 761 shots)
6. Richard Brodeur, 1982 (60.4% on 594 shots)
7. Jonathan Quick, 2012 (60.4% on 538 shots)
8. Dominik Hasek, 1999 (60.7% on 587 shots)
9. Patrick Roy, 1986 (61.3% on 504 shots)
10. Patrick Roy, 2001 (62.6% on 622 shots)
11. Olaf Kolzig, 1998 (62.6% on 740 shots)
12. Pelle Lindbergh, 1985 (62.6% on 487 shots)
13. Billy Smith, 1983 (64.4% on 494 shots)
14. Patrick Roy, 1989 (64.5% on 526 shots)
15. Martin Brodeur, 1995 (64.9% on 463 shots)
16. Arturs Irbe, 2002 (64.9% on 480 shots)
17. Kirk McLean, 1994 (65.6% on 820 shots)
18. Tim Thomas, 2011 (66.5% on 849 shots)
19. Patrick Roy, 1996 (66.9% on 649 shots)
20. Chris Osgood, 2008 (68.0% on 430 shots)

 

[ted2019]

Please don't feel like Taylor over Nighbor is somehow indefensible. I don't think it's anything like completely settled orthodoxy.

Much of our thought, I'm sure, had to do with HOW we value players- and I'm finding that I have differing standards for different positions. In a nutshell:

Goaltenders: PEAK, Prime, Career. A high-peak goalie gives you a chance at a good old Cup-theft or two. Think Gardiner. Think Parent. Hašek almost got there.

Forwards: Peak, Prime, career. A certain set of Superstar Forwards can go into "take-over-game" mode (in spite of being on the ice less than half the time) and affect opposition game plans to the point where rival coaches have to answer the question "what do we do about this guy?"- before they can address any other matters.

Defensemen: CAREER, Prime, peak. A upper-division Hall-of-Fame Defenseman is someone I would expect to provide more than a decade of outstanding service at highest-level competitive hockey. If a Defenseman's performance dips sharply inside of a decade, then he's probably on a lower tier than those who don't have that sort of decline. [Exception made for Bobby Orr, of course- but I won't apologize for having him in fourth place among the Big-4.]

Your valuations will likely differ. But at least I've laid out the reasoning behind mine...

I love Bernie, but he's not making my top 120.

 

[Captain Bowie]

As someone who has spent way too much time studying playoff goaltending, it’s more of a grab bag than just the high peak goaltender being the best bet to steal the Stanley Cup. In the four-round era, the 20 best statistical runs were mostly non-factors in the Vezina race:

Top Four-Round Performances (EvE), 1975-2017
1. Patrick Roy, 1993 (55.7% on 647 shots)
2. John Vanbiesbrouck, 1996 (58.8% on 735 shots)
3. John Davidson, 1979 (59.2% on 535 shots)
4. Jean-Sebastien Giguere, 2003 (59.3% on 697 shots)
5. Tuukka Rask, 2013 (59.4% on 761 shots)
6. Richard Brodeur, 1982 (60.4% on 594 shots)
7. Jonathan Quick, 2012 (60.4% on 538 shots)
8. Dominik Hasek, 1999 (60.7% on 587 shots)
9. Patrick Roy, 1986 (61.3% on 504 shots)
10. Patrick Roy, 2001 (62.6% on 622 shots)
11. Olaf Kolzig, 1998 (62.6% on 740 shots)
12. Pelle Lindbergh, 1985 (62.6% on 487 shots)
13. Billy Smith, 1983 (64.4% on 494 shots)
14. Patrick Roy, 1989 (64.5% on 526 shots)
15. Martin Brodeur, 1995 (64.9% on 463 shots)
16. Arturs Irbe, 2002 (64.9% on 480 shots)
17. Kirk McLean, 1994 (65.6% on 820 shots)
18. Tim Thomas, 2011 (66.5% on 849 shots)
19. Patrick Roy, 1996 (66.9% on 649 shots)
20. Chris Osgood, 2008 (68.0% on 430 shots)

What is EvE?

Kind of surprised Thomas in 2011 is so far down. Most dominant goalie performance in the playoffs I've ever seen.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

But, as stated before, he was only 4th on his own team in scoring (2 defensemen had more points). He also missed 4 games in a 24 game season. Teammate Cy Denneny led the league in scoring and goals. Nighbor wasn't top 5 in goals or assists.

Seems like they created the Hart Trophy to specifically give it to Nighbor.

The Hart Trophy was donated to the NHL by the father of Canadiens coach Cecil Hart, to be awarded to the most valuable player. Nighbor won it by the slimmest of margins after a vote. There's really no evidence whatsoever to suggest the NHL created a trophy just to give to Nighbor.

There's really nothing fishy about Nighbor's Hart win. A few less points than some of his teammates doesn't sound the alarm for me, given his reputation as the preeminent defensive forward of the era.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Full disclosure - since making my preliminary list, I haven't had nearly as much time to self-review as I would have liked. I'm reasonably confident I have no major omissions or systematic bias, but I haven't been able to find time to do the fine-tuning and calibrations that I would have wanted. I'm travelling in Asia now and (frankly) hockey isn't at the top of my list at the moment.

With this disclaimer, I'll send in my list sometime over the next few days. I'm positive that I'll be able to give this project the time it deserves during the actual discussion/voting rounds. Any issues/objections?

 

[VanIslander]

The more I look at Phil Esposito, the higher I am on him.

This ain't the ATD where team building needs of matching styles usually have drafters low on him.

I have Esposito>Clarke, even in passing performances (if not skill).

Yeah Clarke is known for being the prior tenant of Gretzky's office behind the net, but he only twice was top-2 in NHL assists whereas Espo was seven times top-2 in assists. He has a better career assist/game average than Jagr.

Playoffwise, Espo dominated three times, not to mention the Summit Series.

And of course Clarke was never top-10 in NHL goals whereas Espo led the league in goals for six consecutive years, even when Orr was out of the lineup with injury. In terms of career game winners, he trailed only Howe (by a mere 3), and only Jagr has since scored more (by playing forever, like Howe).

His gawdy point totals includes the fact that he six (6) times scored 125+ points in the 1970's, no one ever scoring that much before, Orr doing it twice by mid-decade, Lafleur and Dionne twice by decade's end.

 

[Canadiens1958]

The more I look at Phil Esposito, the higher I am on him.

This ain't the ATD where team building needs of matching styles usually have drafters low on him.

I have Esposito>Clarke, even in passing performances (if not skill).

Yeah Clarke is known for being the prior tenant of Gretzky's office behind the net, but he only twice was top-2 in NHL assists whereas Espo was seven times top-2 in assists. He has a better career assist/game average than Jagr.

Playoffwise, Espo dominated three times, not to mention the Summit Series.

And of course Clarke was never top-10 in NHL goals whereas Espo led the league in goals for six consecutive years, even when Orr was out of the lineup with injury. In terms of career game winners, he trailed only Howe (by a mere 3), and only Jagr has since scored more (by playing forever, like Howe).

His gawdy point totals includes the fact that he six (6) times scored 125+ points in the 1970's, no one ever scoring that much before, Orr doing it twice by mid-decade, Lafleur and Dionne twice by decade's end.

Could you compare Esposito and Clarke defensively in the NHL? No!

And the other two forwards who scored 125+ in the 1970s were also weak defensively.

 

[VanIslander]

But it's not even close offensively. Take away two seasons from Clarke and he's nothing.

 

[quoipourquoi]

What is EvE?

Kind of surprised Thomas in 2011 is so far down. Most dominant goalie performance in the playoffs I've ever seen.

Error Rate vs. Expectation. Essentially the percentage of goals allowed relative to what the opposition would be expected to score in the same number of shots at their regular season shooting percentage.

I wouldn’t say Thomas is necessarily low; we’re looking at the 20-best out of 100. Thomas is dragged down a little for Montreal and Tampa (allowing roughly 90% in each series), but his Round 4 was lights-out.

Top Round 4 Performances, 1980-2017
1. Patrick Roy, 1996 (24.8% on 151 shots)
2. Billy Smith, 1983 (29.5% on 128 shots)
3. Tim Thomas, 2011 (33.2% on 246 shots)
4. Bill Ranford, 1990 (46.2% on 156 shots)
5. Mike Vernon, 1997 (53.4% on 108 shots)
6. Patrick Roy, 2001 (54.2% on 178 shots)
7. Jonathan Quick, 2012 (55.2% on 132 shots)
8. Corey Crawford, 2015 (58.0% on 161 shots)
9. Dominik Hasek, 1999 (58.3% on 198 shots)
10. Patrick Roy, 1993 (60.1% on 155 shots)

But even looking at that list of the best Finals series of the four-round era, it’s certainly not 10 goaltenders at their peak. Two Vezina winning seasons and one nominee?

I think career value is important in net - just as it is at other positions. But especially in the four-round era, because the playoff format becomes a marathon. More bites at the apple, so a better likelihood of catching fire once (or five times if you’re Roy).

 

[quoipourquoi]

Full disclosure - since making my preliminary list, I haven't had nearly as much time to self-review as I would have liked. I'm reasonably confident I have no major omissions or systematic bias, but I haven't been able to find time to do the fine-tuning and calibrations that I would have wanted. I'm travelling in Asia now and (frankly) hockey isn't at the top of my list at the moment.

With this disclaimer, I'll send in my list sometime over the next few days. I'm positive that I'll be able to give this project the time it deserves during the actual discussion/voting rounds. Any issues/objections?

You could literally scribble down 120 sets of players’ initials on a napkin, and I’d frame it. You could accidentally omit “WG”, and I’d be like “Wait, let’s hear him out.”

Enjoy Asia!

 

[Theokritos]

You could literally scribble down 120 sets of players’ initials on a napkin, and I’d frame it. You could accidentally omit “WG”, and I’d be like “Wait, let’s hear him out.”

I know we are trying to be tolerant here, but let's be reality: any list without Warren Godfrey is rejection material.

 

[Canadiens1958]

But it's not even close offensively. Take away two seasons from Clarke and he's nothing.

Really!!! Then explain how Bobby Clarke's net 255 plus/minus advantage gets neutralized or overcome by Esposito's offence.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, wait a tick...isn't Clarke just a Nighbor regen basically...? There can't be too large of a gap between them, can there be? Two of the best two-way men in history...

 

[DannyGallivan]

The more I look at Phil Esposito, the higher I am on him.

This ain't the ATD where team building needs of matching styles usually have drafters low on him.

I have Esposito>Clarke, even in passing performances (if not skill).

Yeah Clarke is known for being the prior tenant of Gretzky's office behind the net, but he only twice was top-2 in NHL assists whereas Espo was seven times top-2 in assists. He has a better career assist/game average than Jagr.

Playoffwise, Espo dominated three times, not to mention the Summit Series.

And of course Clarke was never top-10 in NHL goals whereas Espo led the league in goals for six consecutive years, even when Orr was out of the lineup with injury. In terms of career game winners, he trailed only Howe (by a mere 3), and only Jagr has since scored more (by playing forever, like Howe).

His gawdy point totals includes the fact that he six (6) times scored 125+ points in the 1970's, no one ever scoring that much before, Orr doing it twice by mid-decade, Lafleur and Dionne twice by decade's end.

Esposito was an incredible hockey player. His "image" (if you will) was victimized because of his style (a lumbering player who may have had one highlight reel goal his whole career) and being overshadowed by Bobby Orr. Despite being on the same team as Orr, he still won the Hart twice.

For the record, I have him 17th on my list, between Roy and Mikita. I have Clarke 23rd.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Esposito was an incredible hockey player. His "image" (if you will) was victimized because of his style (a lumbering player who may have had one highlight reel goal his whole career) and being overshadowed by Bobby Orr. Despite being on the same team as Orr, he still won the Hart twice.

For the record, I have him 17th on my list, between Roy and Mikita. I have Clarke 23rd.

Esposito>Mikita & Clarke is, I suspect, a minority opinion. But it's a minority opinion I share.

Before the 'top centers' project, it was pretty close to cant to have Clarke ahead of Messier. {} I never entirely understood where THAT came from.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I know we are trying to be tolerant here, but let's be reality: any list without Warren Godfrey is rejection material.

In all seriousness, any discussion of "WG's" needs to include a player who started his professional career during the WHA's 1978-79 season. He split his first season between the Oilers and Indianapolis Racers. Most of his offense was at even-strength, he boasted a high shooting percentage, and his plus/minus went south after he left Edmonton. I'm talking, of course, about Wes George.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Esposito>Mikita & Clarke is, I suspect, a minority opinion. But it's a minority opinion I share.

Before the 'top centers' project, it was pretty close to cant to have Clarke ahead of Messier. {} I never entirely understood where THAT came from.

Well, I wouldn't discount Bobby Clarke too much either. He beat out the likes of Orr, Espo and Lafleur for three Hart Trophies, and was the heart and soul of the two-time Flyer championship teams. He is probably underrated by most. I have him 23rd on my top 120 (with Espo and Mikita at 17 and 18). I have Mess at 34.

I predict that it will be about 50/50 between Esposito and Mikita, with Clarke being third out of those three by the majority.

 

[ted2019]

Yeah, wait a tick...isn't Clarke just a Nighbor regen basically...? There can't be too large of a gap between them, can there be? Two of the best two-way men in history...

In my eyes, they are basically even.

 

[ted2019]

Esposito was an incredible hockey player. His "image" (if you will) was victimized because of his style (a lumbering player who may have had one highlight reel goal his whole career) and being overshadowed by Bobby Orr. Despite being on the same team as Orr, he still won the Hart twice.

For the record, I have him 17th on my list, between Roy and Mikita. I have Clarke 23rd.

I personally think that is way too high for Esposito. He's in the low 40's for me. I think that Espo is a by-product of playing in the smaller Boston Garden and some guy named Orr.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I personally think that is way too high for Esposito. He's in the low 40's for me. I think that Espo is a by-product of playing in the smaller Boston Garden and some guy named Orr.

We have a massive disconnect here. I think Esposito was a well-rounded centre who could pass, shoot and win face offs. He was also a savvy leader. His offense redefined the standards for the Art Ross Trophy, and if anybody thought he needed Orr to be effective, look no further than the Summit Series.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Really!!! Then explain how Bobby Clarke's net 255 plus/minus advantage gets neutralized or overcome by Esposito's offence.

I mean, Espo's 359 goal advantage is start, no?

In terms of the names recently mentioned:

Mikita->Esposito->Clarke->Nighbor with at most 5 names filing any of the gaps. Only 12 spots overall from Mikita to Nighbor.

It will be appropriate for some of these names to come up together in round 5ish.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

We have a massive disconnect here. I think Esposito was a well-rounded centre who could pass, shoot and win face offs. He was also a savvy leader. His offense redefined the standards for the Art Ross Trophy, and if anybody thought he needed Orr to be effective, look no further than the Summit Series.

or 1968-69 season

Orr wasnt superman Orr yet, scoring "only" 64 points in 67 games.

Esposito meanwhile went for 49-77-126, winning the Hart, Ross (and 2nd in goal scoring) and leading the league in assists and +/-.

In the playoffs he lead the NHL in goals, assists and points posting 8-10-18 in only 10 games.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Could you compare Esposito and Clarke defensively in the NHL? No!

And the other two forwards who scored 125+ in the 1970s were also weak defensively.

Even though Scotty Bowman said that you don't coach Lafleur, you set him loose, it wasn't possible for any forward on the Habs of the 70's to be irresponsible defensively. You'll see Lafleur behind his own net checking a Bruin on several occasions if you go back to those great Boston/Montreal series in the 70's. And then there was Bryan Trottier, who was somewhat reknown as an offensive forward who was responsible defensively.

EDIT: my mistake, I see you were referring to Dionne as the other forward who scored over 125 points in the 70's (although Trottier did too). I can't speak to Dionne's defensive game, as I really haven't ever heard it referenced before.