Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (With a Vengeance)

[Hockey Outsider]

I think Malone is pretty much a must-include. If you asked the historians of 1945 who the greatest goalscorers of all time were, I think Malone is one of the first five names mentioned.

I do think he compares well with Brett Hull, who I have a little ways ahead of him. Hull seems to be a guy who's stock has gradually fallen as time has gone on. I mentioned this in here a couple weeks ago, but I think people have forgotten how consistently productive he was in the playoffs throughout his career. I can't think of too many better non-dynasty playoff goal scorers.

I also struggled with where to place Malone, but I think that's a fair assessment. I didn't specially compare him to Hull, but they're currently within six spots of each other, which feels about right.

Sorry, where can I see the Hart Trophy voting records? For some reason the link I had before is not opening

My thread is here - link.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

...Also, there's a ridiculous drop in goaltender quality at some point.

Well- a palpable drop-off, anyway. At first, I thought "it's 120 players- and goaltender is a damned important position- I should easily be able to find room for more than two-dozen of them, right?" Nah- not so much.

Someone up-thread said they had eighteen. That's exactly the number I have, currently.

 

[Batis]

As promised here comes the SPOTY voting shares for the defencemen. Since the Soviets produced less great defencemen than forwards I will only present the top-3 on each list. In my opinion the 3 top defencemen are the only ones who are relevant in this discussion.

Soviet player of the year voting shares (67/68-89/90)

3-year average:
1. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.558
2. Valery Vasiliev 0.187
3. Alexey Kasatonov 0.089

5-year average:
1. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.520
2. Valery Vasiliev 0.154
3. Alexey Kasatonov 0.073

7-year average:
1. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.456
2. Valery Vasiliev 0.129
3. Alexey Kasatonov 0.060

And here are their results season by season.

Vyacheslav Fetisov
85/86: 184/282 = 0.652
81/82: 116/222 = 0.523
87/88: 129/258 = 0.500
88/89: 110/237 = 0.464
84/85: 122/264 = 0.462
83/84: 82/261 = 0.314
77/78: 61/219 = 0.279
82/83: 44/243 = 0.181
86/87: 27/267 = 0.101
3-year average: 0.558
5-year average: 0.520
7-year average: 0.456

Valery Vasiliev
73/74: 39/168 = 0.232
78/79: 345/1734 = 0.199
79/80: 27/207 = 0.130
74/75: 23/195 = 0.118
80/81: 20/222 = 0.090
81/82: 17/222 = 0.077
72/73: 10/177 = 0.056
76/77: 9/228 = 0.039
75/76: 2/192 = 0.010
77/78: 2/219 = 0.009
3-year average: 0.187
5-year average: 0.154
7-year average: 0.129

Alexey Kasatonov
82/83: 29/243 = 0.119
83/84: 20/261 = 0.077
84/85: 19/264 = 0.072
86/87: 16/267 = 0.060
81/82: 8/222 = 0.036
80/81: 7/222 = 0.032
87/88: 7/258 = 0.027
88/89: 5/237 = 0.021
85/86: 3/282 = 0.011
79/80: 2/207= 0.010
3-year average: 0.089
5-year average: 0.073
7-year average: 0.060

Looking at the voting shares it becomes perhaps even more clear just how much of an outlier Fetisov was among Soviet defencemen. Additionally Fetisov compares very well to most of the top forwards in the voting as well and when it comes to 7-year average Makarov is the only forward ahead of Fetisov for example. The only relative weakness on Fetisovs SPOTY voting record is that he "only" recieved votes in 9 seasons which actually is less than Vasiliev and Kasatonov who both recieved votes in 10 seasons.

It is also very clear that Vasilievs voting record is far stronger than Kasatonovs even without taking into account for that one of Vasilievs strongest seasons was in 78/79 where we only have the Izvestia golden stick voting in which it seems to have been somewhat more difficult to get a high voting share.

In my opinion one interesting discussion to have is if the SPOTY voters underrated defencemen or not. On one hand the by comparison low voting shares of the top defencemen would suggest that the answer is yes. On the other hand I also think that there are reasons to believe that the Soviet Union and later Russia have been far better at producing top forwards than top defencemen which means that the difference in strenght of voting shares can have other explanations. An example of this is of course that no Russian defenceman have won the Norris trophy and only two of them (Konstantinov and Zubov) have finished top 3 in the voting (Gonchar finished in the 4-6 range plenty of times though). Compare this to the forwards where there are three winners of both the Hart and the Pearson/Lindsay (Fedorov, Ovechkin and Malkin) and three others who have finished top 3 in the Hart voting (Yashin, Bure and Datsyuk).

It is of course also possible that the Soviet Union (even beyond the outlier Fetisov) generally produced stronger defencemen than Russia has done in modern times. The amount of accolades won by Soviet defencemen on the international stage would actually point to that. It would not surprise me either considering that much suggests that the level of Soviet hockey was somewhat higher than the level of modern Russian hockey. There was for example already in 85/86 talk about that the Soviet hockey talent development had started to decline and I personally don't see much of a reason to believe that the level of Soviet/Russian hockey ever has come back to the level it had in the mid/late 70's and early/mid 80's.

Regarding the talk about that the Soviet hockey system had started to enter a downperiod already in 85/86 here is a quote from Tikhonov about it.

To add to this here is a quote from the CSKA-Montreal game in the 1986 Super Series. Tikhonov thought that the Soviet Unions hockey system had entered a downperiod already in 1986 in comparison with earlier years.

"Tikhonov quoted widely to the effect that the hockey system of the Soviet Union is in a downperiod right now, not as productive as it has been".

Of course this can be seen in the results too. The Soviet national team in the years 1985-1989 was no longer the almost unstoppable force that the team had been in the early 80´s. Still a extremely good team of course but clearly a step below the early 80´s teams.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Interesting. Raises the question about the disparity in strengths between forwards and defencemen making the forwards look better than they were.

 

[kruezer]

My point is very simple. Cultural shock does not differentiate between various age groups, genders, provenance, professions, trades or occupations. No one gets a pass. Hockey players included.

Conversely in various instances and combinations there are people who do not have situational skills, self control, discipline.

Specifically Sergei Makarov was not in Calgary to teach Terry Crisp how to coach. He tried with resulting consequences. This is not cultural shock. No different from a Canadian player or farm worker crossing the line.

I understand you point, it is very simple, the issue I have with it is that it is far too simple a response to a very complex issue. I was going to request evidence from you again to prove you point, since you are going against the consensus view. But instead allow me to provide you with some reading on what the consensus view is (and to be clear, I do mean consensus, there are people with differing views on the topic and I am willing to hear them out if you want to present them, but I am not going to just take your opinion as fact. For all I know maybe you are a clinical psychologist that specializes in people transitioning cultures, but since I don't know you from Adam I will need to see research to back it up.)

The Five Stages of Culture Shock

(you'll see in this book, which is based on a study focused on undergraduate students travelling across cultures and discusses the literature already published on the subject even mentions right of the bat some people disagree)

Back to the topic of hockey players. I think Makarov is a good example. I think Makarov was relatively unaffected by comparison to his former teammate Krutov, whose weight issues are a classic example of a reaction people having during transition shock. But that is my point, the effect is different between people, let alone between all of the categories you listed. I am not here to give any players a free pass I just don't think blanket statements on such a broad topic are in any way fair, we should approach each player individually.

I am open minded and willing to change my view if you can provide me with contrary evidence, but agreeing to disagree is fine with me as well.


EDIT - Thought you would respond to your two examples quickly as well.

First - that two soviet migrations happened, post WWII and post Berlin Wall fall and they flourished

This is simply extremely vague, how do we know that they all did is there any economic data to back this up? And if we get any, does it mean we know that some folks didn't struggle and work thru it?

Second - Professor's transferred back and forth without trouble.

Again, do you have real evidence, even a preponderance of examples? And again, did they not take some time to fully acclimatize and produce at the highest level again? Finally, are people who are more highly educated more likely to handle change more easily? Could be, again, there are a lot of variables that go into it.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

On the other hand I also think that there are reasons to believe that the Soviet Union and later Russia have been far better at producing top forwards than top defencemen which means that the difference in strenght of voting shares can have other explanations. An example of this is of course that no Russian defenceman have won the Norris trophy and only two of them (Konstantinov and Zubov) have finished top 3 in the voting (Gonchar finished in the 4-6 range plenty of times though).

should ozolinsh count as soviet trained too?

if so, four guys in one generation, two of whose careers/primes were cut short or curtailed due to off ice events/issues, is actually pretty good right?

 

[Batis]

should ozolinsh count as soviet trained too?

if so, four guys in one generation, two of whose careers/primes were cut short or curtailed due to off ice events/issues, is actually pretty good right?

Very good point. Completely forgot about considering the Soviet trained players from other countries than Russia.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Hot take: Beliveau will be available in the first group of players, or at least the first group after the big 4

Yup- NOT a hot take.

For a sort-of hot take, try this: Abel, Ullman, Delvecchio- more limned by greatness than emanating greatness.

For an even hotter one- there's this- I kind of feel the same way about Henri Richard. [I suppose I'll find room for him, simply because enough people whose opinions I respect feel differently... but that doesn't mean I have to put him that high on my list...]

 

[Canadiens1958]

I understand you point, it is very simple, the issue I have with it is that it is far too simple a response to a very complex issue. I was going to request evidence from you again to prove you point, since you are going against the consensus view. But instead allow me to provide you with some reading on what the consensus view is (and to be clear, I do mean consensus, there are people with differing views on the topic and I am willing to hear them out if you want to present them, but I am not going to just take your opinion as fact. For all I know maybe you are a clinical psychologist that specializes in people transitioning cultures, but since I don't know you from Adam I will need to see research to back it up.)

The Five Stages of Culture Shock

(you'll see in this book, which is based on a study focused on undergraduate students travelling across cultures and discusses the literature already published on the subject even mentions right of the bat some people disagree)

Back to the topic of hockey players. I think Makarov is a good example. I think Makarov was relatively unaffected by comparison to his former teammate Krutov, whose weight issues are a classic example of a reaction people having during transition shock. But that is my point, the effect is different between people, let alone between all of the categories you listed. I am not here to give any players a free pass I just don't think blanket statements on such a broad topic are in any way fair, we should approach each player individually.

I am open minded and willing to change my view if you can provide me with contrary evidence, but agreeing to disagree is fine with me as well.


EDIT - Thought you would respond to your two examples quickly as well.

First - that two soviet migrations happened, post WWII and post Berlin Wall fall and they flourished

This is simply extremely vague, how do we know that they all did is there any economic data to back this up? And if we get any, does it mean we know that some folks didn't struggle and work thru it?

Second - Professor's transferred back and forth without trouble.

Again, do you have real evidence, even a preponderance of examples? And again, did they not take some time to fully acclimatize and produce at the highest level again? Finally, are people who are more highly educated more likely to handle change more easily? Could be, again, there are a lot of variables that go into it.

You misrepresent a number of historic facts. Post WWII was not a Soviet migration as you claim. It was the allies, spearheaded by Canadian - Ukrainians who resettled Soviet Bloc DPs throughout the the world, providing new identities in many cases. DPs means displaced person, catchall phrase for those post WWII Soviet Bloc citizens who if they accepted repatriation sincethey faced a minimum 10 year jail sentence or in extreme cases death.



"Heroes of their Day" , book by Bohdan Panchuk, project headed by Lubomyr Liciuk,professor Queen`s University, Kingston,Canada.

Comparing this situation to a controlled study, basically students on a vacation touches on a deep lack of understanding.

Sergei Makarov, situation in Calgary, is not cultural shock by stretch of the imagination. Just a lack of social graces in a team setting.

From Eric Duhatschek:

Memory of '89 Flames still drives Gary Roberts

Let's be perfectly clear, Makarov was signed to replace a player on an SC championship. He was not signed to coach, conduct coaching clinics or editorialize. But he did. Not cultural shock but extreme disrespect. Disrespectful in any team setting in any country.

The interesting part is the secondary perception that Calgary was a tough place for Russian players.

Alberta has a high Eastern European population, strong Ukrainian representation. Always looking for heroes amongst their own.

Flames at that time had two Canadian born players from families with Soviet bloc roots. Likewise Eric Duhatschek who covered the Flames had a similar family background.

Sergei Makarov messed-up. Plain and simple.

 

[kruezer]

You misrepresent a number of historic facts. Post WWII was not a Soviet migration as you claim. It was the allies, spearheaded by Canadian - Ukrainians who resettled Soviet Bloc DPs throughout the the world, providing new identities in many cases. DPs means displaced person, catchall phrase for those post WWII Soviet Bloc citizens who if they accepted repatriation sincethey faced a minimum 10 year jail sentence or in extreme cases death.



"Heroes of their Day" , book by Bohdan Panchuk, project headed by Lubomyr Liciuk,professor Queen`s University, Kingston,Canada.

Comparing this situation to a controlled study, basically students on a vacation touches on a deep lack of understanding.

Sergei Makarov, situation in Calgary, is not cultural shock by stretch of the imagination. Just a lack of social graces in a team setting.

From Eric Duhatschek:

Memory of '89 Flames still drives Gary Roberts

Let's be perfectly clear, Makarov was signed to replace a player on an SC championship. He was not signed to coach, conduct coaching clinics or editorialize. But he did. Not cultural shock but extreme disrespect. Disrespectful in any team setting in any country.

The interesting part is the secondary perception that Calgary was a tough place for Russian players.

Alberta has a high Eastern European population, strong Ukrainian representation. Always looking for heroes amongst their own.

Flames at that time had two Canadian born players from families with Soviet bloc roots. Likewise Eric Duhatschek who covered the Flames had a similar family background.

Sergei Makarov messed-up. Plain and simple.

First off, I did not claim it was a soviet migration. You did. Direct quote here...

"Two major Soviet citizen immigrations without hockey players to NA. Post WWII and post Soviet Union. None of these immigrants had lucrative NHL type contracts but without such advantages succeeded beyond expectations. Most were older than the hockey players from the Soviet Union."

Your attempt here is to get off on a technicality.

Secondly, I am not arguing that immigrants being put thru extremely difficult situations never came to a new land and flourished. That is obviously false, your are using an appeal to the extreme. Insulting the study for being about undergrads misses the point, the report details the previous work on the subject and is an example of the current mainstream view on the subject. Also, this video doesn't prove no Ukrainians faced issues of culture shock, infact many were able. And we are discussing hockey players who have specific athletic primes which will also affect their overall abilities. There are many variables to be considered.

Finally, the second half of your post is arguing against a strawman. Again, direct quote, this time of mine.

"I think Makarov was relatively unaffected by comparison to his former teammate Krutov, whose weight issues are a classic example of a reaction people having during transition shock"

If you want me to change my comment on Makarov from relatively to completely, then sure, I will, but its a VERY difficult thing to say categorically. The rest of your argument is pointless.

Great video though thanks, my maternal grandmother was Ukrainian, I will get the book, I am curious to read it.

 

[Batis]

You misrepresent a number of historic facts. Post WWII was not a Soviet migration as you claim. It was the allies, spearheaded by Canadian - Ukrainians who resettled Soviet Bloc DPs throughout the the world, providing new identities in many cases. DPs means displaced person, catchall phrase for those post WWII Soviet Bloc citizens who if they accepted repatriation sincethey faced a minimum 10 year jail sentence or in extreme cases death.



"Heroes of their Day" , book by Bohdan Panchuk, project headed by Lubomyr Liciuk,professor Queen`s University, Kingston,Canada.

Comparing this situation to a controlled study, basically students on a vacation touches on a deep lack of understanding.

Sergei Makarov, situation in Calgary, is not cultural shock by stretch of the imagination. Just a lack of social graces in a team setting.

From Eric Duhatschek:
Memory of '89 Flames still drives Gary Roberts

Let's be perfectly clear, Makarov was signed to replace a player on an SC championship. He was not signed to coach, conduct coaching clinics or editorialize. But he did. Not cultural shock but extreme disrespect. Disrespectful in any team setting in any country.

The interesting part is the secondary perception that Calgary was a tough place for Russian players.

Alberta has a high Eastern European population, strong Ukrainian representation. Always looking for heroes amongst their own.

Flames at that time had two Canadian born players from families with Soviet bloc roots. Likewise Eric Duhatschek who covered the Flames had a similar family background.
Sergei Makarov messed-up. Plain and simple.

That someone can say that a player who moved from CSKA Moscow to Calgary Flames in 89/90 did not experience a culture shock completely boggles my mind. The only thing you need to do is really read the comments from Crisp and Makarov regarding the situation and it is obvious that their conflicts originated from a culturally based disagreement regarding how hockey should be played. First up Makarovs comment.

Regarding the difference in hockey philosophy between the Soviet players and the NHL players at the time I just found this quote from Makarov.
"I was more than 30 years old when I came to Calgary and it would have been hard for me to change my way of playing. The players in the NHL shot hard and very often but they rarely hit the net. I was not used to this from the Soviet Union so I had a hard time adjusting to that way of playing." Sovjets röda stjärna - Old School Hockey Sergej Makarov - Hockeysverige

And then Crisps.

Sports Illustrated (January 1990):
Europeans play a precise passing game, designed to keep players constantly circling in the offensive zone until one gets open in front of the net for a tap-in. The NHL features more banging, screening, shooting and up-and-down skating... ''He has to shoot more,'' says Flames coach Terry Crisp. ''He'll back-pass three times on a breakaway.''

You can think whatever you want about how Makarov handled the situation but that the conflict originated from a culture shock regarding how hockey should be played is in my opinion very obvious. And that kind of culture shock is of course only one part of it. Then you also have the massive differences in everyday life plus the language barrier.

Also considering that Makarov was one of the most productive players in his age group despite all these problems with adjustments I don't really understand how he "messed-up".

 

[Canadiens1958]

That someone can say that a player who moved from CSKA Moscow to Calgary Flames in 89/90 did not experience a culture shock completely boggles my mind. The only thing you need to do is really read the comments from Crisp and Makarov regarding the situation and it is obvious that their conflicts originated from a culturally based disagreement regarding how hockey should be played. First up Makarovs comment.



And then Crisps.



You can think whatever you want about how Makarov handled the situation but that the conflict originated from a culture shock regarding how hockey should be played is in my opinion very obvious. And that kind of culture shock is of course only one part of it. Then you also have the massive differences in everyday life plus the language barrier.

Also considering that Makarov was one of the most productive players in his age group despite all these problems with adjustments I don't really understand how he "messed-up".

You attribute every difference to cultural shock. No different from traded players or free agents going thru an adjustment phase to teammates. Similar to adjusting to rule changes.

One of the things about people is that they look for reasons to fail. Universal characteristic. Easier than committing to a new approach.

From a distance it comes across as trying to show the superiority of the Soviet hockey system as opposed to an ability to succeed under both systems.

 

[kruezer]

You attribute every difference to cultural shock. No different from traded players or free agents going thru an adjustment phase to teammates. Similar to adjusting to rule changes.

One of the things about people is that they look for reasons to fail. Universal characteristic. Easier than committing to a new approach.

From a distance it comes across as trying to show the superiority of the Soviet hockey system as opposed to an ability to succeed under both systems.

I agree with you on this one. Stylistic differences between the leagues, difference ice sheet sizes, etc. they aren't culture shock. Just differences in the game itself not the surrounding culture.

 

[Canadiens1958]

First off, I did not claim it was a soviet migration. You did. Direct quote here...

"Two major Soviet citizen immigrations without hockey players to NA. Post WWII and post Soviet Union. None of these immigrants had lucrative NHL type contracts but without such advantages succeeded beyond expectations. Most were older than the hockey players from the Soviet Union."

Your attempt here is to get off on a technicality.

Secondly, I am not arguing that immigrants being put thru extremely difficult situations never came to a new land and flourished. That is obviously false, your are using an appeal to the extreme. Insulting the study for being about undergrads misses the point, the report details the previous work on the subject and is an example of the current mainstream view on the subject. Also, this video doesn't prove no Ukrainians faced issues of culture shock, infact many were able. And we are discussing hockey players who have specific athletic primes which will also affect their overall abilities. There are many variables to be considered.

Finally, the second half of your post is arguing against a strawman. Again, direct quote, this time of mine.

"I think Makarov was relatively unaffected by comparison to his former teammate Krutov, whose weight issues are a classic example of a reaction people having during transition shock"

If you want me to change my comment on Makarov from relatively to completely, then sure, I will, but its a VERY difficult thing to say categorically. The rest of your argument is pointless.

Great video though thanks, my maternal grandmother was Ukrainian, I will get the book, I am curious to read it.

I used the word immigration which you twisted to migration.

Major difference. Migration refers to seasonal workers who are allowed to return to the country of origin after seasonal work is finished.

Post 1946 was an immigration without possibility of immediate return.

Krutov, really, classic reaction? Assuming an immigrant has the
money to overeat.

On the otherhand overeating and drinking are common post retirement issues with athletes everywhere.

 

[Batis]

You attribute every difference to cultural shock. No different from traded players or free agents going thru an adjustment phase to teammates. Similar to adjusting to rule changes.

One of the things about people is that they look for reasons to fail. Universal characteristic. Easier than committing to a new approach.

From a distance it comes across as trying to show the superiority of the Soviet hockey system as opposed to an ability to succeed under both systems.

So you seriously believe that being traded from say Toronto Maple Leafs to Calgary Flames would be the the same as moving from CSKA Moscow to Calgary Flames in 89/90? The difference of the adjustment phases in those two scenarios are astronomically big.

 

[Batis]

I agree with you on this one. Stylistic differences between the leagues, difference ice sheet sizes, etc. they aren't culture shock. Just differences in the game itself not the surrounding culture.

In my opinion differences in the hockey culture is also one part of the culture shock for a hockey player adjusting to life in a new country. But if you wanna call it something else than culture shock then let us call it difficulties with adjusting to a different style of hockey at an advanced age for doing so instead.

 

[Canadiens1958]

So you seriously believe that being traded from say Toronto Maple Leafs to Calgary Flames would be the the same as moving from CSKA Moscow to Calgary Flames in 89/90? The difference of the adjustment phases in those two scenarios are astronomically big.

Trade often is involuntary.

CSKA to the Calgary Flames or NA was something Soviet players desired for years. Buyers remourse is not cultural shock.

 

[Doctor No]

CSKA to the Calgary Flames or NA was something Soviet players desired for years. Buyers remourse is not cultural shock.

That's the false dilemma fallacy.

 

[Sentinel]

Trade often is involuntary.

CSKA to the Calgary Flames or NA was something Soviet players desired for years. Buyers remourse is not cultural shock.

I don't understand how can anybody write this not in jest.
You seriously don't understand how emigration works, do you?

 

[Batis]

Trade often is involuntary.

CSKA to the Calgary Flames or NA was something Soviet players desired for years. Buyers remourse is not cultural shock.

That you wanted to move yourself does not make you immune to the culture shock. If I may take an example from my own life when I first moved from Sweden to Mexico to live with my wife (girlfriend at that time) it was something I had wanted ever since we met two years earlier. That did not stop me from feeling like a fish on dry land for the vast majority of my first year there. My love for her was often the only thing that kept me from giving up and taking a flight home. And while the cultural differences between Sweden and Mexico are massive I would still guess that it fades in comparison to the culture shock that those veteran Soviet players faced in 89/90.

 

[Doctor No]

But that can't be culture shock because you desired to move there.

Clearly, if someone wants to do something, then there can't be any negative aspects of doing that thing. It's impossible.

(How do we denote sarcasm on these boards? Or is my post evident without that?)

 

[Canadiens1958]

In my opinion differences in the hockey culture is also one part of the culture shock for a hockey player adjusting to life in a new country. But if you wanna call it something else than culture shock then let us call it difficulties with adjusting to a different style of hockey at an advanced age for doing so instead.

So the Soviets faced cultural shock everytime an opposing country or team presented a new offensive ordefensive scheme?

 

[Doctor No]

So the Soviets faced cultural shock everytime an opposing country or team presented a new offensive ordefensive scheme?

That's the straw man fallacy.

 

[Canadiens1958]

But that can't be culture shock because you desired to move there.

Clearly, if someone wants to do something, then there can't be any negative aspects of doing that thing. It's impossible.

(How do we denote sarcasm on these boards? Or is my post evident without that?)

Actually negative possibilities are inherent in doing anything.

A youngster, say Sergei Makarov, accepted the negative feature of gravity - falling when learning to skate. Regardless of the culture, gravity affects skating.

Youngsters everywhere accept setbacks as part of the maturation process.

Likewise hockey players. Not every shot is a goal. Vast majority fail.

 

[Batis]

So the Soviets faced cultural shock everytime an opposing country or team presented a new offensive ordefensive scheme?

Of course not because there is a very big difference between playing within your own hockey system/culture against other hockey systems/cultures compared to moving to another country as a veteran player and having to try to relearn almost everything you have learned about playing hockey to be able to fit into that hockey system/culture.