Top 10 Greatest Non-NHL players of All-Time

[Dark Shadows]

Someone actually watched Bobrov play?

and Cyclone Taylor? Let's discuss the modern era, not the hunch-back hockeymen era.

BYe. Stay out of the History Section

 

[Dima87*]

Who's Cyclone Taylor ?

 

[Bumjoo Wang*]

Who's Cyclone Taylor ?

Just a few posts back.

Not that you requested it, nor do I think you'll take the time to read it, but here is a pretty informative post by Kyle McMahon, one of the brightest guys on these boards. It's from the HOH top 100 voting and he makes a pretty good case for Taylor as one of the top 20 hockey players of all time.

Ahead of Kharlamov? I have a hard time swallowing that as well, but definitely close and I would certainly be willing to listen to arguments.

"Taylor's offensive dominance is the key to his case. He lead the PCHA in scoring five of his seven seasons as a full time player in that league. He was beaten in 1912-13, his first year in the league, and in 1916-17 when he missed over half the season, injured I'll assume. (Going by points per game, it appears as though Taylor would have won that year's scoring title as well). In fact, being injured in that particular year is a bit of a double-whammy. During Taylor's time, the PCHA played a 16 or 18 game schedule, but in this particular year they played 24, so the injury (or whatever the reason) cost him 13 games (nearly 10% of his PCHA career), and he takes a bigger hit on the PCHA career scoring list than he otherwise would have. In addition, his Vancouver club was pretty much even with Seattle despite his absence. That Seattle team won the Stanley Cup. I'm definitely not big into what ifs, but I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that he may have another Stanley Cup on his resume had he been available to play.

Getting back to the career leaders, Taylor is first in both assists and points, and is third in career goals. On a per-game basis he is the leader in all three categories. Points per game averages are pretty meaningless now, but in the pre-NHL era of frequent player movement, leagues folding and popping up, and much smaller schedules, I think they gain some relevance. He averaged 1.19 goals per game. Bernie Morris is second amongst top-10 career scorers at 0.95, while Frank Fredrickson comes in third at 0.89 gpg. Scoring dipped by about 30% right around the time Taylor retired, so a very rough adjustment puts him and Fredrickson even with each other, while Morris would be a little behind. In the assist category Taylor burries all relevent competition at 0.76 apg. Morris appears to be in second place again in this category, but a very distant second at 0.46 apg. Taylor's 1.94 ppg average gives him a very solid lead over second place (again it's Morris at 1.41), and Frederickson (1.33) may be closer upon adjustment. So bascially I think this makes it pretty clear that Cyclone was certainly the dominant point-producer and playmaker, and probably the best goal scorer in PCHA as well. Despite playing only about 60% as long as many of the other greats in the league, there is no doubt he is the league's greatest player.

Going by what others were saying and writing at the time furthers Taylor's case. Howie Morenz was often called the Babe Ruth of hockey. If Taylor were born just a little later on, I think he would hold this distiction as well. There was nobody else the fans lined up to see like they did Taylor. He was hockey's most exciting star. Now we need to be careful not to confuse excitment and greatness, but this lends plenty of credibility to the beleif that Cyclone was one of the most skillful players ever to take to the ice. It probably wouldn't be wrong to call him the best skater the game has ever known.

If you look over out list, the top 10 seems to pretty much have the dominant player from every era. From the 90's decade back to the 20's decade you have Lemieux, Gretzky, Orr, Hull, Howe, Richard, Shore, and Morenz respectively (plus Beliveau and Harvey). I didn't realize until now how perfectly that seems to have balanced out. So my thinking is now, why should we have to go so far down the list to find the
dominant player of the 1910's? Because there was no NHL? Well admittedly the top-end talent was more spread out, but that doesn't mean those player weren't just as good. Newsy Lalonde is 29th on the list if you prefer him to Taylor (and Joe Malone hasn't appeared for voting yet if you like him) which seems like a sudden steep drop-off after the best player from every proceding decade has cracked the top 10. I highly doubt that in ~10 years the talent level suddenly ballooned like at no other point in history. As I'm sure many have guessed, I'm the one who had Cyclone at #12 on my list. That's probably a tad high and a result of me over-correcting the fact that I think he's the most under-appreciated player ever. But I still think he's top 20 material."[quote/]

 

[Dima87*]

Thanks for the response, but I stopped reading after I saw 1912.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Thanks for the response, but I stopped reading after I saw 1912.

Evidently you are the wrong section of this forum then.

Taylor was one of the greatest Hockey players of all time. The End

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Not that you requested it, nor do I think you'll take the time to read it, but here is a pretty informative post by Kyle McMahon, one of the brightest guys on these boards. It's from the HOH top 100 voting and he makes a pretty good case for Taylor as one of the top 20 hockey players of all time.

Thanks raleh, you beat me to it.

I still find it strange that people come in here and just pick some arbitrary date for when "hockey history" should begin. The "it happened before my time, so it doesn't count" argument never seems to get old.

Dima, if somebody in 2060 decides that Kharlamov's and Tretiak's accomplishments are unimportant and irrelevent because they happened so long ago I guess you wouldn't have a problem with that?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Thanks for the response, but I stopped reading after I saw 1912.

If you don't respect the history of the sport, you're free to stay in the Polls section.

Same goes for you, Hockeynomad. You're either here to discuss History or you aren't. Make up your mind.

 

[Badger Bob]

http://www.greatesthockeylegends.com/2007/01/herb-carnegie.html

But O'Ree wasn't the first or necessarily the best Black hockey player back in the early days. Many say that Herb Carnegie was the best player not in the National Hockey League at that time.

Carnegie had chance to play with a young Jean Beliveau while with the Quebec Aces. Beliveau many years later had nothing but good things to say about Carnegie.

"Even though it's been more than four decades since I witnessed Herb's hockey brilliance, there is no question that the years I spent with him still evoke some of my best hockey memories," said Jean. "Herbie was a super hockey player, a beautiful style, a beautiful skater, a great playmaker. In those days, the younger ones learned from the older ones. I learned from Herbie."

Frank Mahovlich, hockey Hall of Famer and Canadian senator, was another fan of his.

"I was just amazed at the way he played; he was much superior to the others on the ice."

 

[MXD]

http://www.greatesthockeylegends.com/2007/01/herb-carnegie.html

I like Carnegie, but that QSHL/QPHL league wasn't that great. The fact that he was outplayed by a guy named Tony Demers, a guy who couldn't keep a roster spot during the War Years for a team that went 6-39-5 (and could arguably be considered the worst team ever iced), pretty much implies Carnegie has no business on this list.

EDIT : Actually, the Rangers weren't that bad. They just had Ken McAuley having the regular goaltending duties. They might have had some depth problems as well.

 

[CH]

There are several players from the early (usally pre-NHL days) along with Cyclone Taylor that should be considered on this list including Hobey Baker, Frank McGee, Tommy Dunderdale, Moose Johnson, Frank Patrick, Percy LeSueur.

Making a definitive list of these guys and 1960-80 era Europeans is hard because they have no common competition and it is hard to rank them relative to one another. They are both classes of players that are hard to definitively rate verses one another and versus NHL players in general.

Nevertheless, my attempt is
1. Cyclone Taylor
2. Vladislav Tretiak
3. Valeri Kharlamov
4. Hobey Baker
5. Boris Mikhaliov
6. Frank McGee
7. Moose Johnson
8. Anatoli Firsov
9. Vesvolod Bobrov
10. Jiri Holicek

 

[bruinsfan46]

Tony Hand

Come on now, he had no business coming anywhere near the list of 10 greatest Non-NHL players. He played a long time in a really ******, high scoring league so his numbers look insane, but it if you look at them on a season by season basis he rarely lead the league in scoring and often barely made the top 10 if at all. These guys that were beating him weren't exactly world beaters either, a lot of them were North Americans who could barely hack it in the AHL so they took off for Britain and put up some crazy numbers.

Would definitely have been interesting to see what he could have done in the NHL long-term. By all accounts he looked pretty solid in his limited time over here, just got homesick.

It would have been interesting but I have my doubts about if he would have been an impact player at all.

As for my own list, I have no where near enough knowledge of the history of hockey in Europe to compile one. I do know Cyclone Taylor belongs at the top or near the top of the list and LOL at the clowns that think he doesn't because of the era he played in. I guess Ty Cobb can't be considered one of the greatest hitters ever because he played in the "ancient" days.

 

[Vector]

If you don't respect the history of the sport, you're free to stay in the Polls section.

Same goes for you, Hockeynomad. You're either here to discuss History or you aren't. Make up your mind.

*swoon*

I'm, personally, more interested in the guys that may not have been great but never really got a chance. Tony Hand, Herb Carnegie, and anyone else deserves mention.

 

[Crossfire Hurricane]

Taylor was without a doubt fantastic, but I can't help but look at the era argument either. He played when hockey was still in its relative infancy. A time when there would be less strategy, and more pure athletes could dominate. Having at number one ahead of Kharlamov seems ridiculous to me, but I'd have no problem whatsoever at putting him at number three.

It's like comparing numbers, two and three, one is clearly superior, even if not by much.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Taylor was without a doubt fantastic, but I can't help but look at the era argument either. He played when hockey was still in its relative infancy. A time when there would be less strategy, and more pure athletes could dominate. Having at number one ahead of Kharlamov seems ridiculous to me, but I'd have no problem whatsoever at putting him at number three.

It's like comparing numbers, two and three, one is clearly superior, even if not by much.

I agree to a certain extent, but I have him at #2 behind Kharlamov, just ahead of Tretiak. The era argument was not as bad as, say, Hobey Baker. Or even Bobrov(Who was playing against Canadian senior amateurs who could not make the NHL cut)

 

[MXD]

I agree to a certain extent, but I have him at #2 behind Kharlamov, just ahead of Tretiak. The era argument was not as bad as, say, Hobey Baker. Or even Bobrov(Who was playing against Canadian senior amateurs who could not make the NHL cut)

That's my point against having Carnegie in the list as well.

 

[tommygunn]

Tommy Burlington

Tommy Burlington
The greatest North American hockey player NEVER to play in the NHL

© Paul White

Tommy Burlington set scoring records in every league that he played. He signed an NHL contract with the Chicago Black Hawks but he never skated on hockey's biggest stage.

In the autumn of 1939 a young man threw his hockey gear into the back of a transport truck and climbed into the cab. He was leaving his hometown of Mount Dennis to play junior hockey in Owen Sound, Ontario. Little did he know that the career that lay ahead would be a roller-coaster ride of highs experienced from setting records and winning championships, but also burdened with devastating disappointment.

Many hockey fans, who saw Tommy Burlington play hockey, rank him with Wayne Gretzky as one of the best hockey players that they ever saw!

When players, reporters and hockey historians, meet someone from Owen Sound, many immediately ask if they knew Tommy Burlington, or saw him play. When the same question is asked of them, the response is always the same. "Tommy Burlington was one of the best!"

Tommy Burlington was born on August 8, 1920 in Toronto. After a season of junior hockey, he remained in Owen Sound, playing Intermediate hockey. The following season, 1941-42, Burlington signed with the Eastern Hockey League's Atlantic City Seagulls. Burlington stayed in Atlantic City for only one season. But what a season! He terrorized goaltenders, setting a league scoring record with 65 goals and 66 assists.

His scoring prowess and play making ability came to the attention of the AHL's Cleveland Barons.

In his second season with the Barons, Burlington became an AHL all-star. The 23-year-old led his team in scoring with 33 goals and 49 assists and Cleveland finished first in the AHL Western Division. His 24 game scoring streak set a league record. Former Barons' teammate Whitey Prokop described Tommy as "the Wayne Gretzky of his day".

Burlington's scoring feats are even more phenomenal when you consider that he only had vision in one eye.

Tommy came to the attention of the Chicago Black Hawks. But before he could play in the NHL, a rule was passed blocking limited vision players from playing in that league. Toronto owner, Conn Smythe, supposedly proposed this rule. Despite the fact that this rule kept Tommy from fulfilling his NHL dreams, he held no malice towards Smythe. He said "I never held it against him because he was good for hockey and he did a great deal for crippled children."

Burlington scored 30 goals and 60 assists, leading the Barons to another first place finish in their division and the Calder Cup in 1944-45. The next season Tommy again led the team in scoring. Despite his scoring abilities and popularity in Cleveland, Tommy was traded at season's end to Providence.

In 1947, Tommy returned to play senior hockey in Owen Sound. Burlington led the powerful Mercurys' to the Allan Cup in 1950-51. The 1953-54 team looked like it was about to capture another Canadian Championship. But late in the season disaster struck. Burlington was scoring at a record-breaking pace, when, late in the season, he broke his leg. The absence of their great scorer was too much. Sudbury eliminated the Mercurys in the Ontario finals.

In senior hockey, Burlington attracted considerable attention. Legendary coach, Punch Imlach made the trek to Owen Sound to convince Tommy to join his Quebec Aces. Punch told him, "If you sign with me, I'll have the best three centers in amateur hockey, Jean Beliveau, Tommy Burlington and Herb Carnegie!"

Burlington chose to remain in Owen Sound, saying, "I had enough of traveling and my wife is from Owen Sound. And, I always liked Owen Sound. The fans were great sports fans and they knew their hockey."

An indication of Burlington's hockey magic was revealed in an interview with NHL Hall of Fame goalie Harry Lumley. The legendary goaltender often practiced with Burlington and other players. Lumley said that during these scrimmages, Tommy would tell him what he was going to do such as "deke left and shoot high to the right side". But no matter how many times he knew what was about the happen, Burlington would still put the puck past him.

After interviewing several people who had either reported on his games, played with him or against him, or had cheered his moves from the stands, there can be only one conclusion. Despite the fact that he only had vision in one eye, Tommy Burlington's name belongs with Gretzky, Howe and the other legends of the game!

http://icehockey.suite101.com/article.cfm/tommy_burlington

 

[member 30781]

Tretiak
Kharlamov
Maltsev
Mikhailov
Firsov
Vasiliev
Bobrov
Krutov
Yakushev
Petrov

 

[VanIslander]

The hard on for Cyclone Taylor here is largely from 8-9 posters on this thread who also are on the Fantasy Talk and Video Games sub-forum "All-time Draft" here at HfBoards.

I am from there too but I find a lot of the communal judgements to be sickening clique-ish.

Nobody drafts Cyclone Taylor for several drafts then one guy drafts him and suddenly there's a mass rave for the guy.

The fact is that Cyclone Taylor is just one of several candidates for the best-of pre-NHL hockey.

At the end of Vol. 1 of The Trail of the Stanley Cup the author, Charles L. Coleman, selected his all-star team for 1893-1926 and he pans Taylor in favour of: Russell Bowie, Joe Malone and Frank Nighbor. He didn't overlook Taylor, as the guy was on his shortlist (so was McGee).

Clint Benedict, Sprague Cleghorn, Ernie Johnson and Newsy Lalonde were also selected by the hockey historian as among the best of the 1893-1926 era.

So reach near consensus amongst yourselves about the superiority of Cyclone Taylor but that means a hill of beans off of the HfBoards among those who study the history of the game.

 

[finchster]

Clint Benedict, Sprague Cleghorn, Ernie Johnson and Newsy Lalonde were also selected by the hockey historian as among the best of the 1893-1926 era.

Speaking of Ernie Johnson, I saw his stick on display not too long ago
http://www.bigthings.ca/bc/pictures/hockey1.jpg

 

[Sampe]

I'll try a more specific version: top 10 greatest Finnish non-NHL players ever.

1. Urpo Ylönen
2. Lasse Oksanen
3. Esa Peltonen
4. Pekka Marjamäki
5. Lauri Mononen
6. Matti Keinonen
7. Juhani Tamminen
8. Jorma Valtonen
9. Aarne Honkavaara
10.Timo Nummelin

Honorable mention: Mika Nieminen, Kalevi Numminen (both very close to making the list)

 

[Fredrik_71]

I'll try a more specific version: top 10 greatest Finnish non-NHL players ever.

1. Urpo Ylönen
2. Lasse Oksanen
3. Esa Peltonen
4. Pekka Marjamäki
5. Lauri Mononen
6. Matti Keinonen
7. Juhani Tamminen
8. Jorma Valtonen
9. Aarne Honkavaara
10.Timo Nummelin

Honorable mention: Mika Nieminen, Kalevi Numminen (both very close to making the list)

No Esa Keskinen???

/Cheers

 

[VanIslander]

Valeri Kharlamov
Boris Mikhailov
Anatoli Firsov
Russell Bowie
Frank McGee
Vladimir Martinec
Josef Malecek
Nikolai Sologubov
Moose Goheen
Jiri Holecek

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

The hard on for Cyclone Taylor here is largely from 8-9 posters on this thread who also are on the Fantasy Talk and Video Games sub-forum "All-time Draft" here at HfBoards.

I am from there too but I find a lot of the communal judgements to be sickening clique-ish.

Nobody drafts Cyclone Taylor for several drafts then one guy drafts him and suddenly there's a mass rave for the guy.

The fact is that Cyclone Taylor is just one of several candidates for the best-of pre-NHL hockey.

At the end of Vol. 1 of The Trail of the Stanley Cup the author, Charles L. Coleman, selected his all-star team for 1893-1926 and he pans Taylor in favour of: Russell Bowie, Joe Malone and Frank Nighbor. He didn't overlook Taylor, as the guy was on his shortlist (so was McGee).

Clint Benedict, Sprague Cleghorn, Ernie Johnson and Newsy Lalonde were also selected by the hockey historian as among the best of the 1893-1926 era.

So reach near consensus amongst yourselves about the superiority of Cyclone Taylor but that means a hill of beans off of the HfBoards among those who study the history of the game.

Uhm, Malone, Nighbor, Benedict, Cleghorn and Lalonde all played in the NHL.

Johnson however, is up there with Vasiliev as the best d-man to never play in the NHL.

 

[mattihp]

Mika Nieminen should get a mention. Such a wonderful playmaker.

 

[Dark Shadows]

The hard on for Cyclone Taylor here is largely from 8-9 posters on this thread who also are on the Fantasy Talk and Video Games sub-forum "All-time Draft" here at HfBoards.

I am from there too but I find a lot of the communal judgements to be sickening clique-ish.

Nobody drafts Cyclone Taylor for several drafts then one guy drafts him and suddenly there's a mass rave for the guy.

The fact is that Cyclone Taylor is just one of several candidates for the best-of pre-NHL hockey.

At the end of Vol. 1 of The Trail of the Stanley Cup the author, Charles L. Coleman, selected his all-star team for 1893-1926 and he pans Taylor in favour of: Russell Bowie, Joe Malone and Frank Nighbor. He didn't overlook Taylor, as the guy was on his shortlist (so was McGee).

Clint Benedict, Sprague Cleghorn, Ernie Johnson and Newsy Lalonde were also selected by the hockey historian as among the best of the 1893-1926 era.

So reach near consensus amongst yourselves about the superiority of Cyclone Taylor but that means a hill of beans off of the HfBoards among those who study the history of the game.

I am not a member of any of those "all time draft" or other things you mentioned. Just a normal Historian and Analyst.

From what I was told by others(Who ask me to join the ATD every year), Nobody drafted him early because, well, their knowledge of that era of hockey was limited. Upon closer looks at the evidence, everyone started to see why he was the best, and started going with him.

In the HOH top 100 voting, Taylor was fairly cut and dry, although initially, I did Have him and Lalonde side by side much closer together. Lalonde is almost universally regarded as higher than linemate Malone by the older NHLers who comment on the two in History DVD's, so I have to question how Coleman chooses Malone over Lalonde. Any passages from the book to add?