Top 10 Greatest Non-NHL players of All-Time

[JFA87-66-99]

I was thinking some names like Kharlamov,Firsov,Tretiak,Holecek,Bobrov,Vasiliev,etc. I figure the list would be mostly russian players, but I'm curious to see some other lists. Thanks!

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[Dark Shadows]

Cyclone Taylor should be on every list

 

[reckoning]

Just a quick list, though I probably forgot somebody.

1. Tretiak
2. Taylor
3. Kharlamov
4. Firsov
5. Mikhailov
6. Holecek
7. Vasiliev
8. Sologubov
9. Bobrov
10. Maltsev

 

[EagleBelfour]

Valeri Kharlamov
Cyclone Taylor
Vladislav Tretiak
Boris Mikhailov
Valeri Vasiliev
Anatoli Firsov
Aleksandr Maltsev
Jiri Holecek
Aleksander Yakushev
Alexander Ragulin

HM:
Vladimir Petrov
Ernie "Moose" Johnson
Frantisek Pospisil

 

[Fredrik_71]

Whoohaa, hold your horses. There are a couple of swedes I would like to include in that group but I settle for one for now: Sven Tumba!

/cheers

 

[Howe Elbows 9]

Just a quick list, though I probably forgot somebody.

1. Tretiak
2. Taylor
3. Kharlamov
4. Firsov
5. Mikhailov
6. Holecek
7. Vasiliev
8. Sologubov
9. Bobrov
10. Maltsev

You seem to rate goalies highly. I like that!

1. Vladislav Tretiak
2. Cyclone Taylor
3. Valeri Kharlamov
4. Boris Mikhailov
5. Anatoli Firsov
6. Jiri Holecek
7. Valeri Vasiliev
8. Lennart Svedberg (defense first, even over national hero Tumba)
9. Aleksandr Maltsev
10. Jan Suchy

 

[IIHFjerseycollector]

Tony Hand

 

[DaveG]

in no order:
Jan Suchy, Cyclone Taylor, Vladislav Tretiak, Valeri Kharlamov, Boris Mikhailov, Aleksandr Maltsev, Jiri Holecek, Anatoli Firsov, Hobey Baker, Vesvolod Bobrov

 

[arrbez]

You seem to rate goalies highly. I like that!

1. Vladislav Tretiak
2. Cyclone Taylor
3. Valeri Kharlamov
4. Boris Mikhailov
5. Anatoli Firsov
6. Jiri Holecek
7. Valeri Vasiliev
8. Lennart Svedberg (defense first, even over national hero Tumba)
9. Aleksandr Maltsev
10. Jan Suchy

From what I've read about the subject, I get the impression that Tumba was far and away the best Swede of the pre-NHL era, and that Svedberg, while good, would probably rank behind Suchy and a number of Soviet defenders.

 

[Reds4Life]

Vladimír Martinec should be there.

 

[kmad]

Tony Hand

That's who I was thinking of.

 

[DaveG]

Tony Hand

Would definitely have been interesting to see what he could have done in the NHL long-term. By all accounts he looked pretty solid in his limited time over here, just got homesick.

 

[Hockeynomad]

Someone actually watched Bobrov play?

and Cyclone Taylor? Let's discuss the modern era, not the hunch-back hockeymen era.

 

[Hockeynomad]

Funny no one mentioned Vlad Nedomansky...

 

[tommygunn]

Funny no one mentioned Vlad Nedomansky...

Well, maybe because he played in the NHL..

 

[Fredrik_71]

Tumba holds the record in goals scored for the swedish national team in hockey, 186 goals in 245 matches. Tumba was such an atlete he even made the swedish national team in soccer. And in 1973 he represengted sweden in the World Cup, World Professional Championship, in golf!

A freak!!!!!

/Cheers

 

[u8mylife47]

Cyclone Taylor has NO business on this list AT ALL.

People just put him on because they can't imagine a hockey list without a Canadian.

Above tretiak or kharlamov?

 

[Crossfire Hurricane]

These lists are seriously lacking in non-Russians. And I'd really, really hesitate to put Cyclone Taylor above Kharlamov.

 

[reckoning]

Cyclone Taylor was considered the best player in the world in his prime. Sounds good enough for me.

 

[raleh]

Someone actually watched Bobrov play?

and Cyclone Taylor? Let's discuss the modern era, not the hunch-back hockeymen era.

You want to discuss the modern era only? Then get off the history boards...

 

[raleh]

Cyclone Taylor has NO business on this list AT ALL.

People just put him on because they can't imagine a hockey list without a Canadian.

Above tretiak or kharlamov?

Not that you requested it, nor do I think you'll take the time to read it, but here is a pretty informative post by Kyle McMahon, one of the brightest guys on these boards. It's from the HOH top 100 voting and he makes a pretty good case for Taylor as one of the top 20 hockey players of all time.

Ahead of Kharlamov? I have a hard time swallowing that as well, but definitely close and I would certainly be willing to listen to arguments.

"Taylor's offensive dominance is the key to his case. He lead the PCHA in scoring five of his seven seasons as a full time player in that league. He was beaten in 1912-13, his first year in the league, and in 1916-17 when he missed over half the season, injured I'll assume. (Going by points per game, it appears as though Taylor would have won that year's scoring title as well). In fact, being injured in that particular year is a bit of a double-whammy. During Taylor's time, the PCHA played a 16 or 18 game schedule, but in this particular year they played 24, so the injury (or whatever the reason) cost him 13 games (nearly 10% of his PCHA career), and he takes a bigger hit on the PCHA career scoring list than he otherwise would have. In addition, his Vancouver club was pretty much even with Seattle despite his absence. That Seattle team won the Stanley Cup. I'm definitely not big into what ifs, but I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that he may have another Stanley Cup on his resume had he been available to play.

Getting back to the career leaders, Taylor is first in both assists and points, and is third in career goals. On a per-game basis he is the leader in all three categories. Points per game averages are pretty meaningless now, but in the pre-NHL era of frequent player movement, leagues folding and popping up, and much smaller schedules, I think they gain some relevance. He averaged 1.19 goals per game. Bernie Morris is second amongst top-10 career scorers at 0.95, while Frank Fredrickson comes in third at 0.89 gpg. Scoring dipped by about 30% right around the time Taylor retired, so a very rough adjustment puts him and Fredrickson even with each other, while Morris would be a little behind. In the assist category Taylor burries all relevent competition at 0.76 apg. Morris appears to be in second place again in this category, but a very distant second at 0.46 apg. Taylor's 1.94 ppg average gives him a very solid lead over second place (again it's Morris at 1.41), and Frederickson (1.33) may be closer upon adjustment. So bascially I think this makes it pretty clear that Cyclone was certainly the dominant point-producer and playmaker, and probably the best goal scorer in PCHA as well. Despite playing only about 60% as long as many of the other greats in the league, there is no doubt he is the league's greatest player.

Going by what others were saying and writing at the time furthers Taylor's case. Howie Morenz was often called the Babe Ruth of hockey. If Taylor were born just a little later on, I think he would hold this distiction as well. There was nobody else the fans lined up to see like they did Taylor. He was hockey's most exciting star. Now we need to be careful not to confuse excitment and greatness, but this lends plenty of credibility to the beleif that Cyclone was one of the most skillful players ever to take to the ice. It probably wouldn't be wrong to call him the best skater the game has ever known.

If you look over out list, the top 10 seems to pretty much have the dominant player from every era. From the 90's decade back to the 20's decade you have Lemieux, Gretzky, Orr, Hull, Howe, Richard, Shore, and Morenz respectively (plus Beliveau and Harvey). I didn't realize until now how perfectly that seems to have balanced out. So my thinking is now, why should we have to go so far down the list to find the
dominant player of the 1910's? Because there was no NHL? Well admittedly the top-end talent was more spread out, but that doesn't mean those player weren't just as good. Newsy Lalonde is 29th on the list if you prefer him to Taylor (and Joe Malone hasn't appeared for voting yet if you like him) which seems like a sudden steep drop-off after the best player from every proceding decade has cracked the top 10. I highly doubt that in ~10 years the talent level suddenly ballooned like at no other point in history. As I'm sure many have guessed, I'm the one who had Cyclone at #12 on my list. That's probably a tad high and a result of me over-correcting the fact that I think he's the most under-appreciated player ever. But I still think he's top 20 material."[quote/]

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Cyclone Taylor has NO business on this list AT ALL.

People just put him on because they can't imagine a hockey list without a Canadian.

Above tretiak or kharlamov?

Here's the thing, Cyclone Taylor is to west coast pro hockey what Kharlamov is to Soviet hockey. Just as it would be an epic fail to not include Kharlamov, it is an epic fail to omit Taylor.

As raleh just pointed out, his statistical dominance shows him as a clear cut above his pears. But, here's the catch. He was 30 at the start of his PCHA reign. That dominance happens when most players are winding down their careers.

But why does his dominance start there? Simple, he had never played center until he was 30. He spent the previous decade playing defence and the now defunct rover position. With much higher defensive responsibilities, he was still a dominant factor. He earned the Cyclone nickname as hockeys first true puck rushing d-man.

Whenever Cyclone played one position full time for a season, with the exceptions of his first year at center and his last full season, he was the best in the world at that position. He was the best defenceman in the world early in his career and the best center in the world latter in his career.

As far as I'm concerned, it is wrong to have him outside the top 30 of all time.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Reggie Dunlop!

 

[seventieslord]

A lot of variables here.

1) Do you count players who never played in the NHL at all, or players whose legacies are based primarily on non-NHL play? That determines whether guys like Newsy Lalonde and Slava Fetisov make the list.

2) If you do count players who played in and out of the NHL, do their NHL accolades disappear entirely?

3) Does the NHA count as the NHL? It's the exact same league but was just restructured in 1917 to get rid of Eddie Livingstone.

 

[tommygunn]

Tommy Burlington