Top-10 goal-scorers of all-time
- Thread starter Marcus-74
- Start date
But let's keep in mind that Bure played his last game shortly after his 32nd birthday. Had he played as long as Gretzky, he wouldn't be No. 3 all-time in goals per game.
lots of the best players of all time retired in their early 30's. Not everyone is able to stretch their career an extra 5 years by playing on the 4th line like Mark Messier for example.
XploD
Registered User
Let's also keep in mind what I said earlier in the thread.:
Yes his career was cut short and it's possible that his GPG ratio would have declined but he never showed any signs of slowing down, even after many knee surgeries. I believe he even could've increased his GPG ratio playing in the new NHL which is basically made for players like Bure.
Same argument could be made for Bossy. Even more so since his career ended just before the game started to get more defensive when it's the exact opposite for Pavel.
Another stat for you:
Bure's 58 goal season (99-00)
GPG: 0,784
GPG leaguewise per team: 2,747
Panthers GPG: 2,976
GPG/GPG leaguewise per team: 28,5%
GPG/Panthers GPG: 26,3%
Gretzky's 92 goal season (81-82)
GPG: 1,150
GPG leaguewise per team: 4,029
Oilers GPG: 5,213
GPG/GPG leaguewise per team: 28,5%
GPG/Oilers GPG: 22,1%
In words: He scored the same percentage of the goals that were scored each game leaguewise as Gretzky did and a whole lot more of the goals scored by his team each game.
In simpler words: Statistically his 58 goal season is a better achievement than Gretzky's 92 goal season when we're taking into account how much harder it was to score in 1999-00 than it was in 1981-82. He actually would have had a higher GPG than Gretzky had if we're translating his GPG to the 1981-82 season.
This alone should get him in the top 10 if we're talking goal scoring ability.
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Actually chooch, Gretzky might score four against the Kings one night then put 5 in on the Flyers the next. When did Guy ever score 9 times in two games? Even in back to backs with the Capitals and Seals he couldn't pull that one off.
Nice try, keep up the good work.
Actually chooch, Gretzky might score four against the Kings one night then put 5 in on the Flyers the next. When did Guy ever score 9 times in two games? Even in back to backs with the Capitals and Seals he couldn't pull that one off.
Nice try, keep up the good work.
My point which you misssed is that its the quality of your scoring and when you score and who you score against that is important. Records are for kids to fawn over. NIce try dodging my question.
Guy cared more about winning then getting attention by scoring "9 times in 2 games". I dont think Bowman would let him score "9 goals in 2 games" if it meant he had by far the most even strength goals against in hockey history. Or plainly hanging out at centre.
Not to mention http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boJZQXFMHFU
or moments like:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEajdo2sVnw
or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72oxwUo1T9E
no wonder McSorley was always there.
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But Bossy also set a record for consecutive 50-goal seasons and won the Conn Smythe Trophy. And, in perhaps his most impressive accomplishment (something far more impressive than what Bure ever did) Bossy had 61 goals in 72 playoff games from 1980 to 1983.
Playoffs are what counts, period. And in the last three years of the Islanders' dynasty, Bossy's goals-per-game pace increased from the regular season to the post-season. In the fourth year, his pace was down very marginally.
Bure never accomplished any of these things.
BTW, the best goal scorers ever, IMO, are Rocket Richard and Bobby Hull. Rocket Richard is the best clutch goal scorer ever, and in the end, the best goal scorer ever is the guy most likely to get the goal(s) in the big game. Hull's combo of speed, shooting ability and instincts is unmatched.
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The best American players? Hmmm...
Yeah, of course Firsov never proved himself. Just like Dryden and F. Mahovlich (and Ratelle, Gilbert etc.) didn´t prove they could play well against the Soviets, eh?
You might think that Sweden and Czechoslovakia were 2nd and 3rd tier, but that´s your opinion. Team Canada ´76 players might disagree with that one.
Tretiak had his good nights and his bad nights.
XploD
Registered User
That's a great accomplishment, no doubt. But again, think about how that translates to the era Bure played in.
Compare his 17 goals in 18 games playoff year in 1980-81 with Pavel Bure's 16 goals in 24 games in 1993-94.
Bossy
GPG: 0,944
Islanders GPG: 5,389
GPG/Islanders GPG: 17,5% (Regular season: 19,4%)
Bure
GPG: 0,667
Canucks GPG: 3,167
GPG/Canucks GPG: 21,1% (Regular season: 23,8%)
Again this shows that Bure scored more of his teams goals per game than Bossy did in their respective best playoff years. It also shows that both of them scored less of their teams goals each game than in the regular season.
You always have to take into account how much harder it was to score when Bure played than it was when Bossy played. I'm not doing this to take anything away from Bossy, I'm doing this because Bure gets way too little credit here from some of you guys.
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pnep
Registered User
interesting.....
1 place - 10pts
2 place - 9pts
.
.
10 place - 1pts
Howe Gordie | RW | 144
Hull Bobby | LW | 114
Richard Maurice | RW | 110
Stewart Nels | C | 79
Esposito Phil | C | 79
Gretzky Wayne | C | 75
Bossy Mike | RW | 73
Denneny Cy | LW | 68
Beliveau Jean | C | 67
Morenz Howie | C | 66
Lindsay Ted | LW | 64
Lemieux Mario | C | 64
Conacher Roy | LW | 61
Dye Babe | RW | 60
Mahovlich Frank | LW | 60
Jagr Jaromir | RW | 58
Cook Bill | RW | 56
Geoffrion Bernie | RW | 53
Mikita Stan | C | 53
Dionne Marcel | C | 51
Hull Brett | RW | 50
Conacher Charlie | RW | 50
Lafleur Guy | RW | 49
Bure Pavel | RW | 44
Ullman Norm | C | 43
Bondra Peter | RW | 42
Drillon Gordie | RW | 42
Hextall Bryan Sr. | RW | 42
Yzerman Steve | C | 41
Selanne Teemu | RW | 40
pnep
Registered User
Dif. "TOP 10 G" Points - "TOP 10 AST" Points
Player | POS | "TOP 10 G" Points | "TOP 10 AST" Points | DIF
Richard Maurice | RW | 110 | 12 | 98
Hull Bobby | LW | 114 | 27 | 87
Stewart Nels | C | 79 | 8 | 71
Bossy Mike | RW | 73 | 14 | 59
Dye Babe | RW | 60 | 8 | 52
Mahovlich Frank | LW | 60 | 8 | 52
Hull Brett | RW | 50 | | 50
Conacher Roy | LW | 61 | 12 | 49
Conacher Charlie | RW | 50 | 6 | 44
Bure Pavel | RW | 44 | | 44
Bondra Peter | RW | 42 | | 42
Cook Bill | RW | 56 | 16 | 40
Henry Camille | LW | 38 | | 38
Geoffrion Bernie | RW | 53 | 20 | 33
Drillon Gordie | RW | 42 | 9 | 33
Hextall Bryan Sr. | RW | 42 | 9 | 33
Goulet Michel | LW | 36 | 3 | 33
Leclair John | LW | 33 | | 33
Robitaille Luc | LW | 33 | 1 | 32
Kerr Tim | RW | 32 | | 32
Dillon Ceece | RW | 36 | 8 | 28
Kurri Jari | RW | 33 | 5 | 28
Jackson Busher | LW | 38 | 11 | 27
Martin Rick | LW | 27 | | 27
Mcdonald Lanny | RW | 27 | | 27
Cournoyer Yvan | RW | 25 | | 25
Smith Sid | LW | 25 | | 25
Selanne Teemu | RW | 40 | 16 | 24
Tkachuk Keith | LW | 24 | | 24
Mogilny Alexander | RW | 23 | | 23
Kovalchuk Ilya | LW | 22 | | 22
Neely Cam | RW | 22 | | 22
Nieuwendyk Joe | C | 22 | | 22
Shutt Steve | LW | 22 | | 22
Denneny Cy | LW | 68 | 47 | 21
Malone Joe | C | 34 | 13 | 21
Cain Herb | LW | 28 | 8 | 20
Carr Lorne | RW | 23 | 3 | 20
Hejduk Milan | RW | 20 | | 20
Iginla Jarome | RW | 20 | | 20
Richard Maurice | RW | 110 | 12 | 98
Hull Bobby | LW | 114 | 27 | 87
Stewart Nels | C | 79 | 8 | 71
Bossy Mike | RW | 73 | 14 | 59
Dye Babe | RW | 60 | 8 | 52
Mahovlich Frank | LW | 60 | 8 | 52
Hull Brett | RW | 50 | | 50
Conacher Roy | LW | 61 | 12 | 49
Conacher Charlie | RW | 50 | 6 | 44
Bure Pavel | RW | 44 | | 44
Bondra Peter | RW | 42 | | 42
Cook Bill | RW | 56 | 16 | 40
Henry Camille | LW | 38 | | 38
Geoffrion Bernie | RW | 53 | 20 | 33
Drillon Gordie | RW | 42 | 9 | 33
Hextall Bryan Sr. | RW | 42 | 9 | 33
Goulet Michel | LW | 36 | 3 | 33
Leclair John | LW | 33 | | 33
Robitaille Luc | LW | 33 | 1 | 32
Kerr Tim | RW | 32 | | 32
Dillon Ceece | RW | 36 | 8 | 28
Kurri Jari | RW | 33 | 5 | 28
Jackson Busher | LW | 38 | 11 | 27
Martin Rick | LW | 27 | | 27
Mcdonald Lanny | RW | 27 | | 27
Cournoyer Yvan | RW | 25 | | 25
Smith Sid | LW | 25 | | 25
Selanne Teemu | RW | 40 | 16 | 24
Tkachuk Keith | LW | 24 | | 24
Mogilny Alexander | RW | 23 | | 23
Kovalchuk Ilya | LW | 22 | | 22
Neely Cam | RW | 22 | | 22
Nieuwendyk Joe | C | 22 | | 22
Shutt Steve | LW | 22 | | 22
Denneny Cy | LW | 68 | 47 | 21
Malone Joe | C | 34 | 13 | 21
Cain Herb | LW | 28 | 8 | 20
Carr Lorne | RW | 23 | 3 | 20
Hejduk Milan | RW | 20 | | 20
Iginla Jarome | RW | 20 | | 20
Snap Wilson
Registered User
- Sep 14, 2003
- 5,838
- 0
Ha ha ha. Thanks, pnep. Let's compare that to Pogo's list:
Pretty close! Some guys a few spots higher or lower. Maybe Pogo gives extra credit for leading the league? We can figure this out.
AD
Registered User
Snap Wilson
Registered User
- Sep 14, 2003
- 5,838
- 0
Ayman: It's the individual player's goals per game in a specific season standardized to weighted average of every player's (except for goaltenders, of course) indvidual goals per game in that season and the grouped standard deviation of every player's individual goals per game in that season. You can than apply the individual's standard deviation score to any context -- to find the equivalent of Maurice Richard's "50 in 50" year applied to 2006, for example (which would be 56 goals in 82 games, if you were curious).
The benefit of this is that it basically measures how difficult it is for a player to score a goal in a game in any given league environment. Everything is intrinsically figured in: league difficulty scoring, ice time, percentage of time on the power play, etc., because those factors all effect the standard deviation of individual goals per game. It even manages to consider league strength (which I didn't necessarily expect), because the weaker the center is, the better the higher-end guys look, which also impacts the standard deviation.
For the top 100 goal-scoring seasons list I did, I applied every player's standard deviation score to an "average" NHL season, but really, it can be applied to any context.
I've done the same for assists as well, using the same method. I want to do it for goaltenders, but I would like to work on a method of adjusting games and minutes played, first.
BM67
Registered User
Pogo's list uses only the top 7, and gives a bonus for leading by +25% and +50%, iirc.
I know it would take a lot more work but I figure the best way around giving the guy in 8th or 11th zero points, would be to compare everybody to the guy that finished 2nd.
Example
1st: 50 goals = 1.25
2nd: 40 goals = 1
3rd: 40 goals = 1
4th: 30 goals = 0.75
...
12th: 19 goals = 0.475
Gordie Howe = 21.76 for a 26 year career or 0.837 a year
I know it would take a lot more work but I figure the best way around giving the guy in 8th or 11th zero points, would be to compare everybody to the guy that finished 2nd.
Example
1st: 50 goals = 1.25
2nd: 40 goals = 1
3rd: 40 goals = 1
4th: 30 goals = 0.75
...
12th: 19 goals = 0.475
Gordie Howe = 21.76 for a 26 year career or 0.837 a year
I re-read your post and it is a single season table - my mistake. I saw Brett Hull at immediately discounted the findings based on my belief it was a career table. When I have some time, perhaps I will analyze further but, I do agree that Hull's 1991 season is the greatest goal scoring season of all time.
As you spoke about on page one of this thread, your formula calculates goals per game for the league and compares that with goals per game by player to find your numbers. Fair enough but, when the game is fundamentally changed then your numbers get skewed. What I mean is, the first line players in some eras played 30-40 minutes per game while today, a first liner only plays 20-25. That would skew goals per game data.
Why I did my ratings the way I did them is because there are so many variables that change from year to year so, the only fair comparison between players is the players in any one particular season. They all have the same rules, ice time, goals per game etc. to deal with. So, when you compare the players in one season against each other and use a system that can do that for all seasons, without bias, (i. e. points inverted based on where you finish in scoring) then you get a more fair comparison. It is a way of comparing within a season but also a way that levels the playing field to compare across eras.
When winning a goal scoring crown in 1933 becomes the same as winning a goal scoring crown in 1993 (provided no extreme circumstances exist - like one player finishing more than 25% ahead of the pack) then you can more accurately compare players across eras. When you assume a goal scoring crown in the NHL is a different thing from year to year, you run into problems, IMO.
The math may be correct in your findings but, math alone cannot filter out the different variables from year to year.
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I am working on expanding my system to include more than just the top 7. When I have the time to complete it, I will post the results.
So, when Guy played in a much smaller NHL against the Seals, Rockies, Capitals, Islanders, Kings, North Stars and other equally putrid expansion teams - in a league watered down by NHLers leaving to play in the WHA - that was completely legitimate? If I take the time to figure it out, I suspect that Lafleur played a higher percentage of his games against horrible teams than did Gretzky.
How do you explain Lafleur playing in the 3rd period of a 10-3 game against the Capitals? Did Scotty say "Go out there but, for God's sake, DO NOT score".
You do have a strong argument.
Hockeyfan6781
Registered User
Nice list except you list Tkachuk, Hejduk and Lecliar... Wheres Gilber Perrault, Brendan Shannahan, and Mats Sundin??? all better goal scorers then those 3
AD
Registered User
Well the changes in the game necessarily affect all players equally, then, depending on each players comparative deviation, the changes in the game from an era to another gets factored in.
Quite ingenious moneyp.
Edit: I'm rethinking what you wrote ogopogo, and I think you might be right about one point.
Maybe by combining your respective formulas it would produce a better result.
Using moneyp's comparative deviation from the curve idea but only using the stats of the top 15 scorers of each year instead of the entire league.
If the nature of the game means that first-liners typically will deviate to a greater degree in certain eras than others, then, is it really a fair comparison to players from another era when the nature of the game does not allow for the same degree of deviation?
So, when Guy played in a much smaller NHL against the Seals, Rockies, Capitals, Islanders, Kings, North Stars and other equally putrid expansion teams - in a league watered down by NHLers leaving to play in the WHA - that was completely legitimate? If I take the time to figure it out, I suspect that Lafleur played a higher percentage of his games against horrible teams than did Gretzky.
How do you explain Lafleur playing in the 3rd period of a 10-3 game against the Capitals? Did Scotty say "Go out there but, for God's sake, DO NOT score".
You do have a strong argument.
Well....When 99 joined the league it was essentially those lousy teams plus four more lousy WHA teams.
Unlike you I saw those games and no Lafleur didnt play very much in blowouts (on Scottys orders) and he certainly wasnt hopping into his defencemans arms on the 9th goal or standing up on the bench in the last minute like wayne asking scotty for another shift.
"What I mean is, the first line players in some eras played 30-40 minutes per game while today, a first liner only plays 20-25. That would skew goals per game data."
Quite ironic to hear a gretzky fan talking like this
Your "fair" seasonal system doesnt quite account for that or for Brett Hull tanking in games in Boston but scoring a hattrick against a weak team in a blowout or for ice time or for empty net goals or for hanging at centre waiting like Bure or for plus minus.
I wont even get into your 200% offensc so why play defence "argument".
pnep
Registered User
Perreault Gil | C | 15 | 26 | -11
Shanahan Brendan | LW | 19 | | 19
Sundin Mats | C | 13 | 1 | 12
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