Top-10 goal-scorers of all-time
- Thread starter Marcus-74
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But you don´t think that having Mikhailov ahead of him is criminal? Even though Mikhailov is my favorite Soviet player, I would take Firsov over him both as a player and scorer in a flash. I have never seen any footage of Firsov, but numerous European skaters and more importantly goalies have talked about him in such manner (especially of the accuracy and power of his slapshot) that I can´t believe he´s just a myth. He´s often used as an example of a player who didn´t have any weaknesses. And like I´ve already said; how come no one else (Mikhailovs, Kharlamovs, Makarovs, Krutovs) could score more than a goal a game except him. Yes, the different eras might play a small part.
I saw Gretzky mostly playing those international tournaments where he often took the role of "pure playmaker" and didn´t score so much. That image might have affected my judgement a little bit.
And I´m pretty tired of always having to defend the Soviet players´ "right" to be included to such lists as this. The North American view seems to be always "well, they played AHL-calibre opponents 99,9 % of the time", but can you name those Soviet players who suddenly lost all their skills and scoring ability when they faced the Team Canadas/NHL teams of this world? Heck, some of them (Yakushev comes to mind) even raised their game when facing Canada et co.
Krutov shouldn´t be near the list? That´s your opinion.
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
I have no problem with Firsov and Mikhailov on the list. They are often underrated. The biggest problem I have with Krutov is questioning if he's better than Makarov.
Best argument for Firsov. 11 goals in 10 games at the '71 world championships. At that point, there wasn't a weak team there except Germany, and Firsov only ran up the score against Sweden. That's an excellent performance.
Maybe a better indicator. 16 goals in 28 games against Czechslovakia. Czechslovakia was always the biggest rival to USSR in tournament play.
I just thought I'd throw some stats out there. That's a 47 goal season. If that doesn't seem impressive, that's 47 goals against contenders only, no one to ring up the score against.
Cyclone Taylor
11 stanley cup finals games played. 17 goals scored. (Including 8 goals in 3 games when he won the cup.)
Playing defence: 21 gp, 18 goals
In the PCHA regular season: 130gp, 159 goals
Best argument for Firsov. 11 goals in 10 games at the '71 world championships. At that point, there wasn't a weak team there except Germany, and Firsov only ran up the score against Sweden. That's an excellent performance.
Maybe a better indicator. 16 goals in 28 games against Czechslovakia. Czechslovakia was always the biggest rival to USSR in tournament play.
I just thought I'd throw some stats out there. That's a 47 goal season. If that doesn't seem impressive, that's 47 goals against contenders only, no one to ring up the score against.
Cyclone Taylor
11 stanley cup finals games played. 17 goals scored. (Including 8 goals in 3 games when he won the cup.)
Playing defence: 21 gp, 18 goals
In the PCHA regular season: 130gp, 159 goals
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I'd say setting up enough goals to lead the league in points with assists alone, yet still being able to lead the league in goals as well, should even improve his ranking as a goalscorer.
If you "waste" so many opportunities, because you set up another player instead of scoring yourself, and still end up topping any other player in goalscoring, you are obviously truly amazing at scoring goals.
I don't see how someone can rank Bossy so far ahead of Gretzky, when Gretzky outscored him in 5 of the 8 seasons they were in the league together (with a tie in Gretzky's rookie season, and wins for Bossy in Gretzky's sophomore and 163 assist seasons).
XploD
Registered User
I'm not an expert on that era so I can't comment on that. What I said though was that it was a lot harder to score in Bure's era than in the 80's-early 90's which Bossy and Lemieux played most of their careers as they are the ones with a higher GPG than Bure.
pappyline
Registered User
Snap Wilson
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- Sep 14, 2003
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Requested.
Your numbers look reasonable (and are pretty similar to my adjusted goal-scorer list). I'd be interested in hearing about how you calculated this.
Outsider:
It's basically the standardization of the weighted average of and grouped standard deviation of individual goals per game. What it essentially measures is how difficult it is for an individual to score in any given season, rather than a team. This takes the air out of Joe Malone and many of the early NHL stars who were responsible for a relatively high percentage of offense. It (inadvertently, I'll admit) downgrades the wartime years, which have a huge standard deviation. The standard deviation also rises for expansion years. That's how I figured I was on the right track.
I can take those standardized numbers and apply them to any context, to figure out the equivalent of Rocket Richard's 50-in-50 in 2006, for example. The context in the numbers above was your "average" NHL game x82. I figured the number of player games the old fashioned way, (individual games)/(team season games)*82. There may be even a better way of figuring that (especially for goaltenders) but this will do for right now.
Edit: I've done the same for assists (and points, naturally) as well. I haven't done the goaltenders yet.
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I suspect the thread starter is talking about players at the peak of their careers. My list is more who was the greatest goal scorer for their entire career. A player like Bure was amazing but his career was just too short to be top 10 all time, IMO.
Things like adjusted goals are still skewed, IMO, because there are so many variables that you simply cannot account for. Rule changes, equipment changes, average ice times etc. thus adjusted goals is an unreliable measure.
Anyway, here is my top 25 NHL goal scorers of all time:
1 Gordie Howe
2 Bobby Hull
3 Maurice Richard
4 Phil Esposito
5 Wayne Gretzky
6 Mike Bossy
7 Cy Denneny
8 Cecil Dye
9 Nels Stewart
10 Mario Lemieux
11 Howie Morenz
12 Jean Beliveau
13 Charlie Conacher
14 Brett Hull
15 Roy Conacher
16 Jaromir Jagr
17 Bill Cook
18 Frank Mahovlich
19 Ted Lindsay
20 Pavel Bure
21 Stan Mikita
22 Guy Lafleur
23 Bernie Geoffrion
24 Marcel Dionne
25 Teemu Selanne
Things like adjusted goals are still skewed, IMO, because there are so many variables that you simply cannot account for. Rule changes, equipment changes, average ice times etc. thus adjusted goals is an unreliable measure.
Anyway, here is my top 25 NHL goal scorers of all time:
1 Gordie Howe
2 Bobby Hull
3 Maurice Richard
4 Phil Esposito
5 Wayne Gretzky
6 Mike Bossy
7 Cy Denneny
8 Cecil Dye
9 Nels Stewart
10 Mario Lemieux
11 Howie Morenz
12 Jean Beliveau
13 Charlie Conacher
14 Brett Hull
15 Roy Conacher
16 Jaromir Jagr
17 Bill Cook
18 Frank Mahovlich
19 Ted Lindsay
20 Pavel Bure
21 Stan Mikita
22 Guy Lafleur
23 Bernie Geoffrion
24 Marcel Dionne
25 Teemu Selanne
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Trottier
Very Random
If the suggestion is that Bure was a more prolific goal scorer than Bossy or Mario, that is not going to sell anywhere. And that is not a slight at PB, a great player.
I bring this up regularly when some people try to suggest that this player or that was better than Mike Bossy.
Three contemporaries were asked separately who was the greatest natural goal scorer they ever saw. Wayne Gretzky, Raymond Bourque and Mario Lemieux. Three guys who know just a bit about the game.
Their answer was unanimous.
Just me but my own eyes - and, moreover, the opinions of those who played the game - carry more weight than any stat or argument about era, teams, etc.
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Mario
Mario
Mario
Others of note: Larouche, Rick Martin, Bossy, Lafleur, Shutt, Coffey, Leach, Orr, Espo, Neely etc Guys who didnt need or want protection (adjust those figures)
snore
TheBannermen
Registered User
Here are the ten best pure goal-scorers ever, as Yours Truly sees it...
1. Mike Bossy
- I don´t know anybody else who the word ´goal-scorer´ would describe better. The deadliest (wrist) shot ever? And yeah, he´s my favorite Canadian player.
2. Mario Lemieux
- He was a decent goal-scorer also
3. Maurice Richard
- Can´t say that I know an awful lot about Rocket, but I guess he belongs here...
4. Bobby Hull
- He scored a few with his slapshot
5. Phil Esposito
- Mr. Garbage Goal
6. Anatoli Firsov
- The only player who has scored more than a goal a game in World Championship history. Maybe you think that´s nothing, but how come no one else has done it?
7. Boris Mikhailov
- The Soviet Espo? Physically no, but yeah, it was more about the quantity and less about the quality of goals that mattered to him
8. Brett Hull
- Now where did he get that shot?
9. Wayne Gretzky
- Okay, no one else has ever scored as many goals on one season or overall (in the NHL), but it´s still hard for me to place him higher. First and foremost, he was a passer and set-up man
10. Vladimir Krutov
- So his career was a little disappointing in the end, but he was a scoring-machine during the ´80s
Honourable mentions: Jari Kurri, Guy Lafleur, Pavel Bure, Vaclav Nedomansky, Valeri Kharlamov, Sergei Makarov
It could be mentioned that (of the top-10 players) Bossy, Richard, Bobby Hull (NHL), Boris Mikhailov and Brett Hull all have more career goals than assists, whereas Lemieux, Esposito (quite surprisingly!) and of course Gretzky all have more assists than goals. I don´t know about Firsov and Krutov...
1) Bossy
2) Gretz
3) Cyclone Taylor
4) The Rocket
5) Bobby Hull
6) Lemieux
8) Pavel Bure
9) Brett Hull
10) Mike Gartner!
Snap Wilson
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- Sep 14, 2003
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Which variable didn't I account for?
A method that just basically awards points for where you place in the league goal scoring race, if I recall correctly. That doesn't really account for much of anything.
The problem I have with Firsov is that he played on a world class Soviet team in World Championship's against 2nd and 3rd tier players. How can you say he's one of the best goal scorers of all time when the best Canadian and American players were still playing for their NHL teams in the Stanley Cup playoffs. Actually I have a hard time excepting any Russian player from the Soviet era because of the fact they never played the best from the West other then the 72 Summit series or the late 70's early 80's when the Red Army did NHL tours. The best NHL teams smoked them. If it wasnt for Tretiak they wouldnt have had a chance.
To be honest, I don't know what you are not accounting for as I have never seen your formula. But, based on the table you posted, you are obviously missing something significant.
You really don't understand the logic behind my formula so, your attempt to discredit is based in ignorance more than anything.
Dionne has no place being mentioned among the all-time great goal scorers. Hockey's biggest choke artist. For a player of his talent to have only 21 goals (and 45 points) in 49 games is very substandard. I know his teams weren't great, but you can still deliver in the playoffs while being on middling teams.
1971, I wouldn't put Gartner on the list, either. Definitely not ahead of Howe, LaFleur or Conacher. Gartner doesn't belong for the same reason that Dionne doesn't belong: he didn't deliver in the playoffs. And as anyone who know sports will tell you, the regular season is simply the qualifying stage for the playoffs. The playoffs is when the true greats are established, the time when legacies are made.
Snap Wilson
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What is so obviously missing?
Not the specifics, but I think I generally got it. X amount of points for finishing first in the league, X amount of points for finishing second in the league, X amount for third, etc. etc.
If I'm wrong, please feel free to enlighten me.
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
Hey choocher,
Just to be fair, I included Lafleur's goals against Washington for you.
So If Gretz gets 3 goals and 4 assists in a 9-5 drubbing of Winnipeg and then the next night in Boston in a 3-3 tie gets 1 assist and is a minus 2, I guess under your "system" thats better than Lafleur getting a goal and an assist in a 9-2 win against Washington and then 1 goal and 2 assists in 3-2 win in Boston...but I digress.
If you are talking pure goal scorers then Kurri needs to be in the top 10. If you saw him play you understand.
Chooch you really need to get over this obsession of yours with hating on Gretzky...it makes you look foolish.
Chooch you really need to get over this obsession of yours with hating on Gretzky...it makes you look foolish.
XploD
Registered User
No I'm not suggesting that he's a better goal scorer than those two. I'm saying that he doesn't get enough credit for this number on these boards.
Yes, and Bure has the third best career GPG number of all time.
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Paxton Fettel
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- Mar 3, 2006
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