Top 10 defensemen of all-time?

[Canadiens1958]

Going to start the Harvey vs Bourque discussion by looking at the 1955-56 NHL season. Interesting for a variety of reasons. First NHL season with official SV% available and the last season where the complete two minute minor penalty had to be killed, more than one goal per penalty era.

1955-56 RS SV%:

NHL.com - Stats

Note that the three leading goalies are clustered at 0.929, 0.925, 0.923, the three goalies on weaker teams or injured at 0.917, 0.916, 0.907.

So the quality of goaltending was very solid.

Next we are going to look at the PP GA, first year that the Official NHL data is available:

NHL.com - Stats

1955-56,Canadiens(977PIMs) were the second most penalized team, while Detroit(794PIMs) was the least penalized team

1955-56 National Hockey League [NHL] standings at hockeydb.com

The PP GA data from 1955-56 is very interesting. Canadiens had the best PK mainly using depth forwards, anchored by Harvey and Johnson on defence, allowing fewer goals than Detroit, the least penalized team, using much better forwards, anchord by Bob Goldham and Marcel Pronovost.

We now have a perspective of the mid 1950s goaltending and PK, before the 1956-57 rule change limiting PP goals to one per penalty.

More to come, next Raymond Bourque.

 

[Canadiens1958]

i’m assuming you are just teasing, but it sure does seem like a lot of what has been said in this thread (and on these recurrent issues in general) is done so with the assumption that the poster is right and will never ever change his mind, doesn’t it?

Documented vs undocumented would be an appropriate description. Where's the beef? Changing opinions requires documentation.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Going to start the Ray Bourque discussion by looking at the 1986-87 NHL season. Interesting for a variety of reasons. First Norris Trophy season for Ray Bourque and a season in close proximity in terms of PK responsibilities once adjusted to a 70 game O6 season.

1986-87 RS SV%:

NHL.com - Stats

Note that Ron Hextall(.901) is the only goalie over 0.900 .

So the quality of goaltending was not very solid.

The Bruins PK data

NHL.com - Stats

The Bruin PK was anchored by the defencemen pairing of Mike Milbury and Ray Bourque and two top 6 forwards, Rick Middleton and Steve Kasper.

Bruins could not rely on depth forwards like Don Marshall and Floyd Curry to kill penalties like the Canadiens could with Doug Harvey.

This is a constant thru Bourque's career. Also thru Harvey's career, the Canadiens could kill penalties with him and extra forwards or defencemen. An insurmountable advantage Doug Harvey.

 

[VanIslander]

Anybody who thinks Coffey is within talking range of Bourque hasn't seen them both play.

 

[Theokritos]

Happy to see Fetisov getting the recognition he is in this thread. I unfortunately wasn't a hockey fan when he was playing but he has very quickly become my favorite player that I never watched.

And actually, if some of you who did watch him play and know a lot about him could expound on what made him so great, that would be something I'd really appreciate.

Some informative quotes:

If you can look past the red of his uniform, Fetisov may be the closest thing you'll ever see to Bobby Orr. In one particular sequence, he was skating so fast with the puck -- backwards -- that none of the Flyers could catch him.

"You look at that," Bobby Clarke said, "and, if you weren't behind 5-1, you would want to stand up and cheer. Or maybe cry in envy."

Despite what you read about Wayne Gretzky, many people outside Alberta consider Fetisov to be the hands-down best all-round player in the world.

Of Fetisov, Gretzky said: "He's the best player I've ever played against. His lateral movement and backward skating are as good as some players going forward. Some people may not realize how good he is because they haven't played against him. They say (Bobby) Orr was outstanding, but I think Fetisov is as good."

"Fetisov ran the power play, along with (Alexei) Kasatonov. He's their enforcer. He plays the intimidation game. He's the guy who jumps in on the offensive. And he's got a shot like (Doug) Wilson or (Allan) MacInnis."

The quotes above were provided by tarheelhockey.

He possessed exceptional mobility and instincts, both offensively and defensively. He was always in perfect position defensively, though never shied from taking offensive chances. He was also a hard hitting and mean spirited defender, setting him apart from most international players of his day. The 6'1", 215 pound blue liner was among the biggest and best-conditioned hockey players in the world. He loved physical contact, setting him apart from others and earned the grudging admiration of even the bitterest rivals.

He was always a tough competitor because he had great size, he had great vision of the ice and he always made solid plays. Very, very seldom did you ever see him make a bad play and he was a guy that was a lot like Denis Potvin in that he could kind of do it all.

He reads and anticipates so well. He's big and strong like Rod Langway, but he moves into the play like a Ray Bourque.

He'll help an awflul lot. Not only with his ability, but with his leadership. He can make an entire team a notch better.

Yesterday, a tremendous young Russian defenseman named Vyachesav Fetisov waited patiently for Gretzky to finish his bluff, then blithely skated off with the puck. Fetisov was a tower of strength all day, a fact that stunned us Canadians who had been contemptuous until now of Russian defensemen ("Can never learn to get it out of their own end").

He (Wayne Gretzky) said that Fetisov was excellent both offensively and defensively.

Quotes above were provided by Dreakmur.

Fetisov was not the Bobby Orr of Soviet hockey, as some seekers of superlatives sought to label him. In his prime, however, he was better than Denis Potvin, Larry Robinson, Brad Park and all the rest. Gretzky called him the hardest defenseman to beat that he ever played against.

He.. developed into a rock-solid physical mass, with tree-trunk legs. He possessed exceptional mobility and an uncanny sense of when to make the telling penetration from the blueline. To sit in the stands in Moscow was to be mystified by this. Fetisov would leave his point position for no apparent reason and dash into the melee in front of the goal. As if pre-ordained, the puck would speed to him among all the other bodies. Fetisov would shoot or pass off instantly and be back at the point.

As captain of both Central Army and the national team, Fetisov looked the part. He was the ice commander, the Doctor Cool of Soviet hockey. His very physical presence defined leadership.

Last quote provided by VanIslander.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Some informative quotes:









The quotes above were provided by tarheelhockey.













Quotes above were provided by Dreakmur.



Last quote provided by VanIslander.

Interesting that all the dated quotes are before the June 1985 car accident.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Going to start the Ray Bourque discussion by looking at the 1986-87 NHL season. Interesting for a variety of reasons. First Norris Trophy season for Ray Bourque and a season in close proximity in terms of PK responsibilities once adjusted to a 70 game O6 season.

1986-87 RS SV%:

NHL.com - Stats

Note that Ron Hextall(.901) is the only goalie over 0.900 .

So the quality of goaltending was not very solid.

The Bruins PK data

NHL.com - Stats

The Bruin PK was anchored by the defencemen pairing of Mike Milbury and Ray Bourque and two top 6 forwards, Rick Middleton and Steve Kasper.

Bruins could not rely on depth forwards like Don Marshall and Floyd Curry to kill penalties like the Canadiens could with Doug Harvey.

This is a constant thru Bourque's career. Also thru Harvey's career, the Canadiens could kill penalties with him and extra forwards or defencemen. An insurmountable advantage Doug Harvey.

This doesnt speak to a difference between Bourque and Harvey as much as a change in coaching strategy over 25 years.

Is Chara not a premier shut down defenseman just because the PK1 forwards were Bergeron and Marchand for most of his career?

 

[danincanada]

Going to start the Harvey vs Bourque discussion by looking at the 1955-56 NHL season. Interesting for a variety of reasons. First NHL season with official SV% available and the last season where the complete two minute minor penalty had to be killed, more than one goal per penalty era.

1955-56 RS SV%:

NHL.com - Stats

Note that the three leading goalies are clustered at 0.929, 0.925, 0.923, the three goalies on weaker teams or injured at 0.917, 0.916, 0.907.

So the quality of goaltending was very solid.

Next we are going to look at the PP GA, first year that the Official NHL data is available:

NHL.com - Stats

1955-56,Canadiens(977PIMs) were the second most penalized team, while Detroit(794PIMs) was the least penalized team

1955-56 National Hockey League [NHL] standings at hockeydb.com

The PP GA data from 1955-56 is very interesting. Canadiens had the best PK mainly using depth forwards, anchored by Harvey and Johnson on defence, allowing fewer goals than Detroit, the least penalized team, using much better forwards, anchord by Bob Goldham and Marcel Pronovost.

We now have a perspective of the mid 1950s goaltending and PK, before the 1956-57 rule change limiting PP goals to one per penalty.

More to come, next Raymond Bourque.

Someone once taught me the following words to live by so I'm not so sure about the bolded:

"SV% is no longer taken as a serious indicator of goalie reliability on these boards. South of basic +/- and sinking fast."

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/round-2-vote-3-stanley-cup-playoff-performers.2215075/page-3

Oh, that was you in post # 57. Guess +/- buoyed itself up again since last April.

Harvey had Johnson who was also an all-star that season, Plante in net, and Toe Blake as coach. Bourque had Mibury, his team used 5 different goalies and he had two different coaches in Goring and O'Reilly. Do you seriously consider this to be a fair comparison when trying to compare PK abilities this way and isolating two individual players?

 

[BenchBrawl]

Anyway, was it ever in contention that Harvey is better on the PK than Bourque? I'm seriously asking, because on top of my head I would have given it to Harvey without a second thought.Same for defensively as a whole.

 

[Canadiens1958]

This doesnt speak to a difference between Bourque and Harvey as much as a change in coaching strategy over 25 years.

Is Chara not a premier shut down defenseman just because the PK1 forwards were Bergeron and Marchand for his career?

Speaks to a major difference between Harvey and Bourque. The strategy is still viable as long as you have a d-man who can play RD and LD equally well. Harvey could play LD and RD equally well, so could Orr and Serge Savard. Bourque, Lidstrom and Chara could not. This is the difference since you need the flexibility from the anchor defenceman.

Chara was not considered a shut down defenceman until he joined the Bruins where he played with Bergeron and Marchand on the PK.

Bruin PK while usually better than the NHL average, still has fewer kills when adjusted from a 82 game schedule to a 70 game schedule and in proportion to games and opportunities gives up more goals than the elite O6 teams did.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Anyway, was it ever in contention that Harvey is better on the PK than Bourque? I'm seriously asking, because on top of my head I would have given it to Harvey without a second thought.Same for defensively as a whole.

Defence and PK are the two corner stones of hockey that generate offence as we shall see.

 

[x Tame Impala]

@Theokritos

Thank you very much. That was great

 

[x Tame Impala]

1) Horrific is an exaggeration. The players had better cars, flats, overall standard of living than an average Soviet citizen. Otherwise many of them would have defected.

If "horrific" is too much hyperbole, then fair enough. But to make it seem like the differences in the lives between a player in 1960's North America and 1960's Soviet Russia were negligible is extremely disingenuous and is to not know what life under Communist rule was like.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Someone once taught me the following words to live by so I'm not so sure about the bolded:

"SV% is no longer taken as a serious indicator of goalie reliability on these boards. South of basic +/- and sinking fast."

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/round-2-vote-3-stanley-cup-playoff-performers.2215075/page-3

Oh, that was you in post # 57. Guess +/- buoyed itself up again since last April.

Harvey had Johnson who was also an all-star that season, Plante in net, and Toe Blake as coach. Bourque had Mibury, his team used 5 different goalies and he had two different coaches in Goring and O'Reilly. Do you seriously consider this to be a fair comparison when trying to compare PK abilities this way and isolating two individual players?

We no longer have just basic +/- but we also have in many cases the home and away splits which goes to usage. This was added since the start of the NHL season.

Also you are conflating ability and reliability. Not the same.

Tom Johnson also drew a fair share of penalties. under those circumstances Harvey would be on the PK with St.Laurent or Talbot and the usual depth forwards and swingman Turner. Also Bob Perreault who replaced and injured Plante for 6 games did just as well at a basic level(0.931 SV%). Likewise, Worsley and Glenn Hall, two future in close proximity to Plante. Worsley had a disaster of a head coach in Phil Watson.

Finally Harvey could play RD and LD equally well and did regulary. Bourque could not and did not. Coaching, goalies or teammates do not change this ability.

 

[danincanada]

We no longer have just basic +/- but we also have in many cases the home and away splits which goes to usage. This was added since the start of the NHL season.

Also you are conflating ability and reliability. Not the same.

Tom Johnson also drew a fair share of penalties. under those circumstances Harvey would be on the PK with St.Laurent or Talbot and the usual depth forwards and swingman Turner. Also Bob Perreault who replaced and injured Plante for 6 games did just as well at a basic level(0.931 SV%). Likewise, Worsley and Glenn Hall, two future in close proximity to Plante. Worsley had a disaster of a head coach in Phil Watson.

Finally Harvey could play RD and LD equally well and did regulary. Bourque could not and did not. Coaching, goalies or teammates do not change this ability.

Was I talking about ability or reliability when I compared vastly different SV% in that thread?

Johnson had 75 PIM and Harvey had 60 PIM that season so they both did their share of killing penalties without each other.

 

[blogofmike]

Next we are going to look at the PP GA, first year that the Official NHL data is available:

NHL.com - Stats

1955-56,Canadiens(977PIMs) were the second most penalized team, while Detroit(794PIMs) was the least penalized team

1955-56 National Hockey League [NHL] standings at hockeydb.com

The PP GA data from 1955-56 is very interesting. Canadiens had the best PK mainly using depth forwards, anchored by Harvey and Johnson on defence, allowing fewer goals than Detroit, the least penalized team, using much better forwards, anchord by Bob Goldham and Marcel Pronovost.

We now have a perspective of the mid 1950s goaltending and PK, before the 1956-57 rule change limiting PP goals to one per penalty.

This seems to be a convenient perspective for Harvey. Save percentage isn't overly relevant to your point and Team PPGA data is available for prior years too.

The 1952 Wings were 2nd in PIMs and 1st in fewest PPGA: NHL.com - Stats

And in 1955 the MOST penalized team in the league was the Maple Leafs. The least scored upon PK unit in the league was the Maple Leafs. Stuff like that happened. http://www.nhl.com/stats/team?report=penaltykill&reportType=season&seasonFrom=19541955&seasonTo=19541955&gameType=2&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=ppGoalsAgainst

Tom Johnson also drew a fair share of penalties. under those circumstances Harvey would be on the PK with St.Laurent or Talbot and the usual depth forwards and swingman Turner.

In 1955-56 both Harvey and Johnson took exactly 25 minor penalties. Harvey was in the box for penalty kills about as often as Johnson.

Another thing to note is that based on bigmouthsports playoff boxscores, the Canadiens PK was just as likely to kill a penalty when Doug Harvey was in the penalty box as they were when Harvey was not in the box. And that the Montreal Canadiens remained a strong PK team even after his departure. They may have been "depth forwards," but they were on the roster because they had a particular skillset.

 

[Canadiens1958]

This seems to be a convenient perspective for Harvey. Save percentage isn't overly relevant to your point and Team PPGA data is available for prior years too.

The 1952 Wings were 2nd in PIMs and 1st in fewest PPGA: NHL.com - Stats

And in 1955 the MOST penalized team in the league was the Maple Leafs. The least scored upon PK unit in the league was the Maple Leafs. Stuff like that happened. http://www.nhl.com/stats/team?report=penaltykill&reportType=season&seasonFrom=19541955&seasonTo=19541955&gameType=2&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=ppGoalsAgainst



In 1955-56 both Harvey and Johnson took exactly 25 minor penalties. Harvey was in the box for penalty kills about as often as Johnson.

Another thing to note is that based on bigmouthsports playoff boxscores, the Canadiens PK was just as likely to kill a penalty when Doug Harvey was in the penalty box as they were when Harvey was not in the box. And that the Montreal Canadiens remained a strong PK team even after his departure. They may have been "depth forwards," but they were on the roster because they had a particular skillset.

And you missed the main point completely. Both Doug Harvey and Tom Johnson were LHS defencemen who at ES played RD. Harvey had the rare ability to play LD equally well. This he did on the PP regularly and on the PK when needed. This is the important point and the difference between him and other great defencemen who were much stronger on their preferred side.

Under Toe Blake this created the following advantage on the PK, unless Harvey and Johnson were both penalized at the same time or injured, the two defencemen were always playing a familiar position at optimum. Johnson penalized, Harvey would play RD with his usual LD partner. Harvey penalized you had the Johnson pairing playing as usual. This facilitated the use of depth and swingmen at the two forward spots.

Harvey effectively represented two roster spots on defence. Very few defencemen in the history of the game had this ability or offered this advantage.

 

[blogofmike]

And you missed the main point completely. Both Doug Harvey and Tom Johnson were LHS defencemen who at ES played RD. Harvey had the rare ability to play LD equally well. This he did on the PP regularly and on the PK when needed. This is the important point and the difference between him and other great defencemen who were much stronger on their preferred side.

Under Toe Blake this created the following advantage on the PK, unless Harvey and Johnson were both penalized at the same time or injured, the two defencemen were always playing a familiar position at optimum. Johnson penalized, Harvey would play RD with his usual LD partner. Harvey penalized you had the Johnson pairing playing as usual. This facilitated the use of depth and swingmen at the two forward spots.

Harvey effectively represented two roster spots on defence. Very few defencemen in the history of the game had this ability or offered this advantage.

Ah. Then your point is meaningless. Not only are the vast majority capable of playing the other side on the PP, but Ray Bourque was RD in Boston and LD in Colorado and Norris-calibre on either side.

He also took faceoffs on occasion. How many defenders can do that?

 

[overg]

Ah. Then your point is meaningless. Not only are the vast majority capable of playing the other side on the PP, but Ray Bourque was RD in Boston and LD in Colorado and Norris-calibre on either side.

He also took faceoffs on occasion. How many defenders can do that?

Similarly, although I wouldn't swear to it, I'm pretty sure Lidstrom played his off side when paired with Coffey. Of course, that wasn't prime Lidstrom yet, but (unless I'm mistaken), it shows that Lidstrom was capable of playing the other side of the ice.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Ah. Then your point is meaningless. Not only are the vast majority capable of playing the other side on the PP, but Ray Bourque was RD in Boston and LD in Colorado and Norris-calibre on either side.

He also took faceoffs on occasion. How many defenders can do that?

Capable and playing both sides equally well are two different qualities. Bourque did not switch during the game situationally like Harvey did. Big difference between Norris quality combined and at each.

Pre faceoff interference rules plenty of defenders took faceoffs.

 

[Zine]

Tarasov quoted in the 1970s:

Sport in the Soviet Union

Not all youth players participated in the tournament.

BTW, lets see the supporting evidence for the sticks and skates claim.

"It is wonderful that every year about 4 million children and youngsters take part in the national Golden Puck Tournament" - Anatoly Tarasov.

Tarasov is talking completely out of his rear end, most likely for the foreign media. Speaking as someone who grew up in the Soviet Union, his quote resembles nothing of the reality of life, nor resources that would've been needed to achieve such a number.

Moreover, his quote doesn't jive with recorded participation rates of the Golden Puck Tournament:
1st year of the tournament (1964) - 54 participating teams
In the tournament's heyday of 1970s/1980s - 400 participating teams/yr
This year - 600 participating teams

From the Russian Ice Hockey Federation:
"Some of the tens or even hundreds of thousands of kids who participated in the Golden Puck went on to grow into champions of the country, world, and olympic champions".
ФХР :: Золотой шайбе - 47!
Более 600 команд сыграли в хоккейном турнире «Золотая шайба» / Новости города / Сайт Москвы

 

[blogofmike]

Capable and playing both sides equally well are two different qualities. Bourque did not switch during the game situationally like Harvey did. Big difference between Norris quality combined and at each.

Pre faceoff interference rules plenty of defenders took faceoffs.

Hey look Bourque playing on both sides of the ice:

 

[Canadiens1958]

"It is wonderful that every year about 4 million children and youngsters take part in the national Golden Puck Tournament" - Anatoly Tarasov.

Tarasov is talking completely out of his rear end, most likely for the foreign media. Speaking as someone who grew up in the Soviet Union, his quote resembles nothing of the reality of life, nor resources that would've been needed to achieve such a number.

Moreover, his quote doesn't jive with recorded participation rates of the Golden Puck Tournament:
1st year of the tournament (1964) - 54 participating teams
In the tournament's heyday of 1970s/1980s - 400 participating teams/yr
Today - 350 participating teams/yr

From the Russian Ice Hockey Federation:
"Some of the tens or even hundreds of thousands of kids who participated in the Golden Puck went on to grow into champions of the country, world, and olympic champions".
ФХР :: Золотой шайбе - 47!

Maybe it's just me, but I don't recall rosters back in the day being comprised of 10,000 kids per team.

Well both answers are satisfactory - classic Soviet exaggeration or a misunderstanding of the situation.

The second alternative refers to the process of determining the final participating teams which grew from 54 to 350.

Using the old Quebec provincial model at the most popular level, Pee Wee, each region was allowed one representative per level. A region would have 6 to 10 districts, with multiple leagues, of Pee Wee teams, at least 30 such leagues per district with roughly 6 to 10 teams per league, each team supported by a house league of 4 to 8 teams. Series of league and playoff games to determine one regional representative. So in large districts you would have roughly 6-8,000 youngsters playing for the opportunity to have their team qualify for the regional final amongst 6 to 10 districts, to determine a champion to go to the provincials, so One provincial representative would have easily required the participation of well over 10,000 youngsters.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Hey look Bourque playing on both sides of the ice:

Hey watch the faceoff starting at 2:05 of the Bruin PP. Bourque, playing LD instead of his usual RD, takes the faceoff and instead of opening the ice for the PP drifts towards his comfort zone on the right point to take a shot. This takes Reed Larson out of participation in the PP reducing the PP to even strength. Then at roughly 7:35 Bourque is playing LD, covering on the right side, he does not adjust properly leaving himself vulnerable to a check by Gilles Thibodeau.

As stated and supported by your evidence, Bourque played both sides but as evidenced he was very uncomfortable playing LD and did not do it well. His movements, turns and decisions were much weaker.

Harvey played both sides equally well under all circumstances.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Hey watch the faceoff starting at 2:05 of the Bruin PP. Bourque, playing LD instead of his usual RD, takes the faceoff and instead of opening the ice for the PP drifts towards his comfort zone on the right point to take a shot. This takes Reed Larson out of participation in the PP reducing the PP to even strength. Then at roughly 7:35 Bourque is playing LD, covering on the right side, he does not adjust properly leaving himself vulnerable to a check by Gilles Thibodeau.

As stated and supported by your evidence, Bourque played both sides but as evidenced he was very uncomfortable playing LD and did not do it well. His movements, turns and decisions were much weaker.

Harvey played both sides equally well under all circumstances.

Bourque's longest lasting partner was Don Sweeney, a lefty who played the left side.

He also played with Wesley, McLaren and Gill when all were rookies (all lefties). Played with Milbury for awhile, another lefty who rarely played the right side. Spent time with Jim Wiemer (lefty) and Allan Pedersen (lefty).

The thing is, Bourque played with so many assorted rookies, journeymen and stiffs that it was hard to tell which side he was playing because he was covering so much for his partners.

This left side/right side argument is completely bogus. A forced scenario to fit an obvious agenda.

By the way, I have never claimed nor voted for Bourque over Harvey. Or Shore, for that matter.