Tom Brady, the greatest to ever play

[CDJ]

After his neck surgery, Peyton couldn't even throw a football 5 yards. He went through crazy rehab and basically learned to throw all over again. I never thought about this - but Peyton did miss that entire 2011 season. It's pretty incredible he has those records he does with that entire year lost. Give him 2011 back, and Brady is probably 3 seasons out from catching him vs. 2.


MJ changed basketball. Neither Brady or Peyton did the same for football. Poor comparison.

*whoooosh* must be the wind

As for your post I'm Saying it in the sense of they are best of all time. And MJ didn't change basketball, Magic and Larry did (at least IMO)


As for the blainer114 post all I can say is lol. I mean, really? That's what you got? He can win 5 more and you'd be saying that (not to mention the stats argument has already been blown up on top of the fact manning had better weapons but whatever I digress). The notion that the king of one and dones is MJ..... oooooooo boy that's rich. He just made himself die for the sole purpose of rolling over in his grave after that

 

[CDJ]

Ahhhh the Matt Cassell season. Yeah that one was easy to forget.

For you maybe

I still remember wanting to die in week 1

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Except Manning absolutely changed it and it's weird to deny that. What does being athletic have to do with changing how every team plays the game, which is pretty much exactly what Manning did? You're thinking about that one way too narrowly.

Shotgun, no-huddle, audibles, arguably 3WR sets and how the TE is used. Obviously he didn't invent a single one of these, but he sure as hell popularized every one of them and made them absolute staples in today's game. The sport is incredibly different since he came into the league and he's absolutely a reason/the biggest reason why.

Audibles? Shotgun? No-huddle? Thank you, Peyton

First Manning is clearly superior to Brady... and I show that stats tell another story: they are virtually equals. Now Manning changed the game! I understand you love the guy, but come one...

 

[Ivan13]

Except Manning absolutely changed it and it's weird to deny that. What does being athletic have to do with changing how every team plays the game, which is pretty much exactly what Manning did? You're thinking about that one way too narrowly.

Shotgun, no-huddle, audibles, arguably 3WR sets and how the TE is used. Obviously he didn't invent a single one of these, but he sure as hell popularized every one of them and made them absolute staples in today's game. The sport is incredibly different since he came into the league and he's absolutely a reason/the biggest reason why.

He popularized nothing. These things were all pretty damn popular before he came along, Redskins were a dynasty using Air Coryell's scheme, Bills made four straight SBs playing no huddle, Bengals were in the SB playing no huddle. The biggest reason for the change in the sport is the new set of rules that doesn't allow for the DBs to mug receivers, not Manning.

 

[CDJ]

Alternative facts

I don't even see the point in this thread unless we are all gonna just laugh at the suggestion that Brees might be the GOAT. It's readily apparent Brady is #1. The players unanimously say it. The analysts basically unanimously say it outside of noted clowns like rob Parker. The fans who don't hate Brady or the patriots unanimously say it. Even most of the ones that do say it now. It's as much as a fact as the sky being blue or the grass being green. Sure you can say the grass is purple but everybody is gonna point and laugh

The sky is only gonna get bluer over the next couple of years too

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Alternative facts

I don't even see the point in this thread unless we are all gonna just laugh at the suggestion that Brees might be the GOAT. It's readily apparent Brady is #1. The players unanimously say it. The analysts basically unanimously say it outside of noted clowns like rob Parker. The fans who don't hate Brady or the patriots unanimously say it. Even most of the ones that do say it now. It's as much as a fact as the sky being blue or the grass being green. Sure you can say the grass is purple but everybody is gonna point and laugh

The sky is only gonna get bluer over the next couple of years too

For the record, I am a Patriots fan and I think Brady is the best of all time. However, at one time in history, everyone was saying that the Earth was flat (and Kyrie ****ing Irvin still do). They were wrong.

What a deeper analysis of the stats shows is that Brady is, at worst, Brees's and Manning's equal from a production stand point. These three guys are very good comparables because their career pretty much perfectly overlap. So, at worst, we can say that, statistically, Brady is one of the three best of his era. THEN, if you add winning, well, he stands alone. If you wanted to add a guy like Aaron Rodgers in the discussion, you would have to compare him from the day he became starter to Brady from the day Rodgers became starter (on a average per game basis). If you wanted to compare Brady to guys that played before him, you would have to find what the average QB's per game averages were during their careers and what the average QB's per game averages were during Brady's career and calculate how much better than average they are on various metrics. Even then, you wouldn't have perfect analysis as some eras are better for QBs than others. You would have a more compelling argument though.

Basically, what we can determine without a doubt is that Brady was at the very worst as good as Manning and Brees statistically and that he won much more than they did. It would then be fair to objectively call him the best QB of his generation. When it comes to "GOAT", well, yeah, he has the better numbers and won more, so, it is a natural thing to thing he is the best. However, to REALLY prove it, we would have to dig deeper. Also, I guess we would have to define context (teammates, opponents, league trends, etc) much better. I have no doubt such a study would show that he is the best, but we could be surprised.

TL;DR: As much as we love Brady and think he is the best, proving it OBJECTIVELY isn't that easy.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Audibles? Shotgun? No-huddle? Thank you, Peyton

First Manning is clearly superior to Brady... and I show that stats tell another story: they are virtually equals. Now Manning changed the game! I understand you love the guy, but come one...

Come on yourself, did you miss the part where I said he invented none of these things? Shotgun wasn't a lot more than a gimmick formation pre-Manning, now it's the default set. Audibles and the overall autonomy QBs had over the offense was also pretty rare for decades until Manning loosened that. As for no-huddle, you're really going to try and deny that one? Used before him, but never like he did, and it's the first thing you think of with Manning.

I get you like Brady, but again, it's weird to deny Mannings fingerprints all over today's game. Doesn't even inherently mean anything, just plain weird.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

He popularized nothing. These things were all pretty damn popular before he came along, Redskins were a dynasty using Air Coryell's scheme, Bills made four straight SBs playing no huddle, Bengals were in the SB playing no huddle. The biggest reason for the change in the sport is the new set of rules that doesn't allow for the DBs to mug receivers, not Manning.

LOL exactly none of those things were popular pre-Manning. Making a mistake with an audible was tantamount to sin (and that's probably creeping back) and exactly no one had used no-huddle offenses for anything but tempo. There was also no new set of rules, but not surprising to hear this one again.

 

[CDJ]

I respect where you are coming from but I think the book is closed


He puts up similar numbers to the rest of the elites, turns it over less, and most importantly- wins. He does everything everybody else does...but he wins the most on top of that.

 

[Ivan13]

LOL exactly none of those things were popular pre-Manning. Making a mistake with an audible was tantamount to sin (and that's probably creeping back) and exactly no one had used no-huddle offenses for anything but tempo. There was also no new set of rules, but not surprising to hear this one again.

I take it you have no idea how the Bills played? Or the Bengals?

Air Coryell had audibles, he also made TE a popular position (ever heard of the Wilson character that's in the HOF) and players moving at the line of scrimmage to diagnose the D.

Next thing you Manning worshipers will try to argue is that Manning created the sun, earth and the moon.

There wasn't a new set of rules? What on earth are you on about?

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I take it you have no idea how the Bills played? Or the Bengals?

Air Coryell had audibles, he also made TE a popular position (ever heard of the Wilson character that's in the HOF) and players moving at the line of scrimmage to diagnose the D.

Next thing you Manning worshipers will try to argue is that Manning created the sun, earth and the moon.

There wasn't a new set of rules? What on earth are you on about?

Manning invented one thing for sure: tea bags.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

I take it you have no idea how the Bills played? Or the Bengals?

Air Coryell had audibles, he also made TE a popular position (ever heard of the Wilson character that's in the HOF) and players moving at the line of scrimmage to diagnose the D.

Next thing you Manning worshipers will try to argue is that Manning created the sun, earth and the moon.

There wasn't a new set of rules? What on earth are you on about?

I take it you can't read all that well, given this is now the third time I've said he didn't invent these things. And like I said, the way Manning used the no-huddle was nothing like those teams did, so perhaps it's you that had no idea how Manning played? Also mentioned the audibles thing, and in no way did I ever say they didn't exist before him (same as everything else)

The formation ones were admitted stretches, but it is telling you have to go back decades before Manning played in the league to find examples. Despite being effective, they never really caught on pre-Manning. But again, that's an admitted stretch.

And no, there was not a new set of rules, maybe best if you check your facts.

 

[Bonzai12]

what a futile thread

 

[Scandale du Jour]

what a futile thread

Indeed, the analysis is few and far between. Way too much bickering based on nothing.

 

[jgatie]

Did I just hear that nobody before Manning used the no huddle offense like he did?

Except the Buffalo Bills with Jim Kelly used it in almost every game, for the entire game, for like 4 seasons! And it wasn't just for tempo or clock management. Kelly used to call his own plays at the line in order to mess with the defense.

Talk about defeating your own arguments.

 

[Voight]

I don't get whats so hard about admitting Brady is the GOAT, unless TMDM is a Colts fan.

 

[Voight]

Uhhh no.... manning is mj and brady cant be compared because he cheated his way to championships. Im not a Brady hater either, yes he is a great qb but his rep has been tarnished and in general manning had better stats than brady.

When did Brady cheat his way to championships? Are you also gonna discount Jerry Rice's achievements because he used stick em?

Michael Jordan is not the GOAT

Yes he is. KAJ has an argument tho.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I don't get whats so hard about admitting Brady is the GOAT, unless TMDM is a Colts fan.

It is pretty obvious he is

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Did I just hear that nobody before Manning used the no huddle offense like he did?

Except the Buffalo Bills with Jim Kelly used it in almost every game, for the entire game, for like 4 seasons! And it wasn't just for tempo or clock management. Kelly used to call his own plays at the line in order to mess with the defense.

Talk about defeating your own arguments.

It was absolutely for tempo and wearing down defenses by not allowing them to sub out, not for using every second of the play clock like Manning did. What Manning did and the K Gun really were not all that alike.

And again, while every one of these was seen in the league prior, they were all treated as fads and never replicated. It's not wrong to say he popularized them, that's what he did.

TBF I'd also say Belichick popularized the 3-4 defense, even though he wasn't even the only guy doing it at the time.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

I don't get whats so hard about admitting Brady is the GOAT, unless TMDM is a Colts fan.

Because regardless of what team I cheer for, I don't think he is? Seems to be a reoccurring theme, where a few Pats fans get mad at the idea of people disagreeing. I guess that was the whole purpose of the thread, to try and kill any discussion about it.

 

[Voight]

Because regardless of what team I cheer for, I don't think he is? Seems to be a reoccurring theme, where a few Pats fans get mad at the idea of people disagreeing. I guess that was the whole purpose of the thread, to try and kill any discussion about it.

Thats fine, we live in a free country and you're allowed to have an opinion. But you are in a very very very small minority.

I'm a packers fan and while I would love to say Favre is the GOAT, I can admit Brady is, especially because the debate overwhelmingly favours him.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Thats fine, we live in a free country and you're allowed to have an opinion. But you are in a very very very small minority.

I'm a packers fan and while I would love to say Favre is the GOAT, I can admit Brady is, especially because the debate overwhelmingly favours him.

Why would any Packers fan on earth want to say Favre is the GOAT when their current QB is a lot better than he ever was? That's certainly curious.

And I'm completely fine being in the minority. Why the hell would that ever matter? Are people really so weak minded that they change their opinions based on what other people think? Sounds like an awful way to live life.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

You can have any opinion you want, you just have to back it up. So far you have backed nothing up.

 

[Bonzai12]

Why would any Packers fan on earth want to say Favre is the GOAT when their current QB is a lot better than he ever was? That's certainly curious.

interesting argument

I'm trying to put that into Broncos terms. Manning wasn't around his entire career here, but I'd venture to guess a lot of older fans would tell you Elway was better than Manning. If Peyton was here his entire career though it'd probably be different. Bad example I guess.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

You can have any opinion you want, you just have to back it up. So far you have backed nothing up.

My opinion is no secret, but at no point have I tried to argue for it. The rest of the thread, your contributions excluded, is a bunch of guys both arguing an opinion and being unable to back it up.

Actually, considering your opinion, have you even backed it up? You've went to great lengths to show they're statistically nearly-identical, that doesn't exactly back up Brady.