Time to reform LTIR or not

[Favin]

The use of LTIR has been evolving over the years, and as more teams push up against the salary limits, it appears to be put to more use as relief against the cap.

There has always been a debate about how this rule is used with big markets for it and cash-poor teams less likely to use its advantages. Since we seem to be facing a flat cap over the next couple of years, do you think LTIR needs to be reformed?

What you think? (I only listed a few options here - there are clearly countless reforms possible - I could not list them all - so just pick closest to your thinking)

---------------

More players on LTIR
(Number of players listed on LTIR in late February)

2017-18: 9
2018-19: 7
2019-20: 25
2020-21: 34

More salary on LTIR
(Combined cap figure for all players listed on LTIR in late February)

2017-18: $30 million
2018-19: $34 million
2019-20: $90 million
2020-21: $114 million

League-wide cap space declining
(current 31-team cap space as % of league-wide cap limit)

2017-18: 26%
2018-19: 18%
2019-20: 12%
2020-21: 6%

(figures from CapFriendly)

Also, CapFriendly's LTIR FAQ page: www.capfriendly.com/ltir-faq

Click to read more...

 

[North Cole]

Where do you get the info about players on LTIR? According to this there are 87 players on IR, but it doesn't specify IR vs LTIR.

Does LTIR really help a team that much with relief? I thought you only got cap savings of the portion above the cap calculated daily, such that you can then exceed the cap by the amount of the LTIR? But if a player is not injured then you don't need to repurpose their salary for another player, so I don't see the issue. I guess it provides some cash benefits to teams since contracts are insured so they wouldn't have to front the full amount themselves.

From what you linked,

"When a player is placed on LTIR, their cap hit remains on the teams cap payroll and it continues to count as it always did. It also does not provide the club with additional cap-space savings that can be banked for future use while the team operates above the salary cap. Instead, LTIR provides relief if the club's averaged club salary, or payroll, begins to exceed the upper limit. The amount of relief that the club receives is calculated on the day the player is placed on LTIR. There are three equations that are used to determine the LTIR relief, the first, the basic equation, can be used during the season and during the off-season. The second, the training-camp equation, can be used on the final day of the off-season in preparation for the first day of the season. The third formula is used when the team already has a player on LTIR.

When a player is deemed fit to play, the team must activate them."​

To me this kind of refutes the idea that teams are getting pure "relief" from the LTIR, else you would expect the total league-wide cap space to decrease as salary on LTIR increases, yes? Clearly salary on LTIR is increasing, but team cap space is not decreasing, so where is the relief? All that appears to be happening is that teams are spending more actual money, without increasing on ice-roster sizes.

Regarding the rest of your figures, we are in a condensed schedule, so it's more likely for injuries to occur and LTIR is not something that teams just use as a get out of jail free card, it is pretty heavily scrutinized (like for insurance purposes). Perhaps there is some benefit from accruing excess LTIR in exchange for draft capital, but this nebulous and doesn't seem to relate to the OP.

Regarding the question in the poll I would say no - LTIR is one of the least understood processes in the NHL by fans (myself included), I don't think the majority of us have enough information or expertise to change the LTIR system in a meaningful way. So I would say, leave it the way it is.

 

[Favin]

Where do you get the info about players on LTIR? According to this there are 87 players on IR, but it doesn't specify IR vs LTIR.

Does LTIR really help a team that much with relief? I thought you only got cap savings of the portion above the cap calculated daily, such that you can then exceed the cap by the amount of the LTIR? But if a player is not injured then you don't need to repurpose their salary for another player, so I don't see the issue. I guess it provides some cash benefits to teams since contracts are insured so they wouldn't have to front the full amount themselves.

From what you linked,

"When a player is placed on LTIR, their cap hit remains on the teams cap payroll and it continues to count as it always did. It also does not provide the club with additional cap-space savings that can be banked for future use while the team operates above the salary cap. Instead, LTIR provides relief if the club's averaged club salary, or payroll, begins to exceed the upper limit. The amount of relief that the club receives is calculated on the day the player is placed on LTIR. There are three equations that are used to determine the LTIR relief, the first, the basic equation, can be used during the season and during the off-season. The second, the training-camp equation, can be used on the final day of the off-season in preparation for the first day of the season. The third formula is used when the team already has a player on LTIR.

When a player is deemed fit to play, the team must activate them."​

To me this kind of refutes the idea that teams are getting pure "relief" from the LTIR, else you would expect the total league-wide cap space to decrease as salary on LTIR increases, yes? Clearly salary on LTIR is increasing, but team cap space is not decreasing, so where is the relief? All that appears to be happening is that teams are spending more actual money, without increasing on ice-roster sizes.

Regarding the rest of your figures, we are in a condensed schedule, so it's more likely for injuries to occur and LTIR is not something that teams just use as a get out of jail free card, it is pretty heavily scrutinized (like for insurance purposes). Perhaps there is some benefit from accruing excess LTIR in exchange for draft capital, but this nebulous and doesn't seem to relate to the OP.

Regarding the question in the poll I would say no - LTIR is one of the least understood processes in the NHL by fans (myself included), I don't think the majority of us have enough information or expertise to change the LTIR system in a meaningful way. So I would say, leave it the way it is.

It is complicated for sure. In short, it allows teams to push their cap limit higher. So it doesn't subtract player's cap hit from $81.5m, but it can allow a team to gain more cap space so they can replace injured player. It has been abused in recent years to circumvent salary cap when there are bloated salaries on the books. There have even been recent examples of teams trading for contracts that are on LTIR to maneuver around cap. Lower spending teams that are well below the cap don't need the LTIR relief, thus never use it. So it provides help to mostly higher spending teams.

I believe it needs some sort of reform, and probably some phasing out.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I’d say leave it as is, maybe GMs will learn to leave a few million below the cap for injuries. Instead of shooting themselves in the foot.

Edit: I see that’s the popular opinion so far.

 

[SotasicA]

Nothing wrong with LTIR, but when a player retires, he should retire honestly, not hang out on LTIR until his contract runs out. Marian Hossa is not a reserve player for the Coyotes.

There is a difference between being on injured reserve and having your career ended by an injury. Close that loophole and let retirees retire. Those guys who are actively trying to make a comeback can continue to be on LTIR.

 

[Mickey Marner]

If you want to eliminate the LTIR, then you must provide a superior alternative.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

This is a summer topic

 

[BruinsBtn]

The playoff loophole should have been ended with Kane.

The overall LTIR is mostly fine the way it works. Just put in a change that any player who doesn't appear in a regular season game on that team can't play in the playoffs unless they're able to be fully cap compliant with that lineup.

 

[SotasicA]

The playoff loophole should have been ended with Kane.

The overall LTIR is mostly fine the way it works. Just put in a change that any player who doesn't appear in a regular season game on that team can't play in the playoffs unless they're able to be fully cap compliant with that lineup.

But there is no cap in the playoffs. How would you even calculate it, with nobody getting paid, and with all the black aces?

 

[2Pair]

The playoff loophole should have been ended with Kane.

The overall LTIR is mostly fine the way it works. Just put in a change that any player who doesn't appear in a regular season game on that team can't play in the playoffs unless they're able to be fully cap compliant with that lineup.

All that you would have to do is make a rule that states that for a player to be eligible for the playoffs, he must be on the active roster by the last day of the regular season.

 

[BruinsBtn]

All that you would have to do is make a rule that states that for a player to be eligible for the playoffs, he must be on the active roster by the last day of the regular season.

There's more to it than that. You might have a guy who breaks a finger two weeks before the playoffs and can return in the 3rd round. He should be able to come back.

Maybe if you made it that he had to be on the active roster at some point during the season. And for guys who were genuinely hurt all season make it so the team has to be cap compliant with that player's salary for at least one game, or they can't return in the playoffs.