Tim Murray

[Crazy Tasty]

What I claimed was if his goal is to win the McEchiel sweeps then why bring in a player who can contribute to the success of the team. Why spend 2 years tanking to bring in players that can jepordize that. If we don't get McEichel this team is looking the same with the addition of Reinhart and Kane. We could be here again next year.

That is my criticism of Murray. I could care less about losing Myers if we get McEichel which some fans are unhappy about.(Myers that is).

As I said with my first post for me it is too early to tell about Murray. If we don't get McEichel but win the Stanley cup I will have no problem saying he is the best GM in sabres history.

Is criticizing Murray if we lose out on McDavid and Eichel wrong?

Murray stated his goal; his goal is to rebuild this team to be competitive long term in the future, not win the sweepstakes.

Adding well respected veterans to a young team helps the "kids" mature in a hockey sense. Look to Edmonton to see what happens when the right leadership is not in place.

 

[SabreBlood]

For the record, Tim Murray being the Sabres GM gives me a feeling of comfort. Comfort that he is perfect for this rebuild. He has a noticeable plan, and he's not afraid to make bold moves and flip depth for what this roster has needed for far too long.

If we want to take pokes at Murray's GM performance thus far, sure, it's possible. The #1 thing I would point out (no one has in this thread) is that he even traded for Neuvirth in the first place. Why did he? He's on the record in saying that he believed Neuvirth was the top goaltender in the Capitals organization. Why would he trade for the top goaltender in anyone's organization to play on a team that's supposed to finish dead last? That's really the only headscratcher I can come up with.

The E. Kane / Z. Bogosian deal is very interesting. It can be looked at in many different ways. I CHOOSE (yes, choose) to look at it this way:

- He traded away a hot shot teenager that thought far too highly of himself on draft day, and then wouldn't even sign a pro contract in Brendan Lemieux
- He traded away what's supposed to be a top 6 scoring winger at the NHL level in Joel Armia (yet he only has 17 goals in 99 AHL games..)
- He traded away a rental forward that has a history of performing his best when a new contract is on the horizon
- He traded away a low first round pick that we won't see the actual value in for at least 3-5 years
- He traded away a highly touted, former Calder trophy winning RHD, that skates like the wind and has drool-worthy attributes

For:

- A proven elite scoring winger that plays a heavy game, a two-way game, and probably also thinks too highly of himself (although he's proven his worth at the NHL level already, unlike the brat Lemieux)
- A hard-hitting, minute-eating, former top 3 pick RHD who's style is exactly what the Doctor ordered for the Buffalo Sabres blue line, although he's somewhat injury prone
- A throw-in goaltender

Basically, I don't think he gave up much at all by trading a rental, Armia and that late 1st.

Lemieux is the wild card.. Will he even become a steady 3rd line player at the NHL level?

Myers is the only actual proven commodity they'll have beyond this season if Stafford isn't re-signed. While the Sabres have two proven commodities in Evander Kane and Zach Bogosian for the foreseeable future.

 

[Reddawg]

I CHOOSE (yes, choose) to look at it this way:

I choose to look at it your way as well. The only asset we dealt that will really be missed in the end is Myers, and I believe Bogosian can be just as good (not offensively, but every other aspect of the blueline game) and so much harder to play against. Ristolainen takes over as our #1 defenseman for years to come and Bogo is the perfect #3 minute chewer. At the end of the day, this deal will be that rare home run for both teams...we both got what we needed out of the trade.

 

[ZeroPT*]

there is so much potential for this to go **** up. Rebuilds are risky as ****. You can look liek an absolute genius or a complete laughing stock.

At the very least we have proactivity. Murray is working hard. He's doing all he can. Sitting on his hands is 100% recipe for disaster. Waiting never works. Edmonton is still waiting. NYI needed a new ownership and the htreat of losing a generational talent for Collberg and a 2nd to do anything. Murray isn'T waiting (save Stewart). He'S building the team he WANTS TO BUILD. He has an abundance of assets, and a young core of 6 players + 1 draft pick that he will need to build around and he will. It may blow up in his face but he's doing something. Darcy would never do that. Tambellini never did that. Snow circa 2008-2014 didn't. Lombardi also made bold moves. The Richards trade for example. Schenn was regarded as a top 5 prospect in the whole hockey world. He payed for what he wanted and he got rewarded. How anyone can be unhappy with what Murray has done is fair, but those who say he should just strip the roster of anything resembling an NHL body, get McEichel and then wait is just beyond me.

He'S working hard and he has a clear vision. That's why I have unwaivering faith in him. He knows what he wants and he'll do anything to get it. Now the question is, whether or not what he wants is worth it. And that comes down to his evaluation skills, which is why he was chosen in the first place.

 

[joshjull]

That's tangential to the thing that worries me about Murray. The way he talks about how many assets the team has, and all the different magical ways he can use them. Because of when he came in he really is disconnected from all the ****-sandwich hockey the fanbase had to deal with in order to accumulate an unprecedented amount of assets. Sort of what I call a trust-fund mentality where there is a disconnect from the assets because they were inherited, not earned.

You couldn't be more wrong. The entire purpose of acquiring all those assets is to do the very things Murray is talking about.

It's still the Winnipeg trade that bothers me. The Jets got literally everything they wanted in that deal and gave up nothing that they weren't a) already giving up (Kane) or b) upgrading (Bogosian). In theory, the Jets were the ones whose hand was forced by the Kane mutiny (heh).

Kane forcing their hand or not doesn't change the fact that he had real good value. He is also the player with the best pedigree in the trade. Thus they had to get a very good return to move him. It was incredibly important to their franchise. You're acting as if they would part with him for any decent deal offered. Also the Jets did NOT want to part with Bogo but the return was worth it from their pov. And thats kind of the point.*

1) Kane elected to get surgery and could not help their playoff run. They got Stafford to replace that production.
2) Chevy stated that he considered Armia and Lemieux the Sabres 2 top prospects and got both.
3) The Sabres org was looking for a blue-chip goal prospect and the Jets have several, Murray got none of them.
4) Sabres retained salary on Stafford and shifted a front-loaded contract in Myers for a back-loaded one in Bogo - a huge consideration for an internal cap team.
5) Sabres also give the 2015 first rounder.
6) Chevy also gets what he considers the best player in the deal in Myers. Arguable, but not a stretch.

You're kinda of missing the bigger picture complaining about these fringe elements to the trade. For Murray this trade was about acquiring Kane and Bogo. Players he feels are key cogs for the team he's building for next year and beyond. If he has to hold onto salary, take a lesser goaltending prospect, so be it, as long as the two pieces he wants for the future were acquired.

Its certainly is a good deal from a Jets pov right now. Possibly long term as well. But for us its about acquiring the two key cogs for the future. Time will tell if thats how it will play out. Frankly thats all that will matter from our end of things not how the trade works out for the Jets.

I just get the idea that the thing that makes Murray entertaining in press conferences, this bluntness as a gruff old ex-scout, is maybe what hurts him dealing with other GM's. Where Darcy was tougher to read than Dostoyevsky, with Murray it's like playing poker against Peter Griffin.

I think your missing the major difference between the types of trades Regier and Murray are making and how that impacts the type of assets needed to make them happen. Murray has a type of team he wants to build and has targeted specific players in trades to start building that team. Darcy almost always traded for value. He rarely targeted a specific player nor did he try to build a specific type of team. He let his coach sort out the style they should play. But by doing that he was able to draw out value in trades since specific players were not required to make a trade happen. Whereas Murray is going to have to pay more to acquire specific players because the other team knows he wants them. I mean do posters really expect other teams to part with specific players we are trying to get for a great price? Thats not a very logical stance.

*When you target specific players , thats the focus of that trade not getting max value from the assets you have. So it took what we gave up in order for the Jets to part with Kane/Bogo who were the targets for Murray from the get go. The problem for some fans is they keep worrying about what the Jets got. When the only focus for Murray was getting the players he wanted. I expect more fans getting bent out of shape over trades going forward.

 

[joshjull]

As for whether or not Murray is going a good job. I would say its too soon to tell. Next season will see this team start to resemble the one he wants. Then we can start evaluating things.

 

[Matt Ress]

uh ok? By that theory of yours, we still could. Lets say St. Louis wins the cup. That first we lost, is going to be one pick ahead of our #2

It's still a 1st round pick no longer in the Sabres possession.

I'm not fully sold on Murray yet. Frankly, I just haven't seen anything particularly cunning less genius. I really like adding Kane, but assume the price was high. I don't hate Bogo but, I think we downgraded on D (certainly arguable though). They're definitely different players altogether. And I know Myers/Bogo wasn't the crux of the trade. Still don't really understand the argument against signing Casey Bailey. LA moves are pending approval . Essentially, a future first line has rounded out, strengthening the entire line up, at the expense of an unbalanced farm. The former is more important than the latter but, I like to think they could have both.

I'm compelled to compare him to Darcy, which really isn't fair at all. Darcy didn't have the green lights that TM gets, which works both ways; also puts pressure on TM to go get the Kane's out there. Darcy almost always got good value though. TM has the assets but has maybe been a bit too gratuitous with them. He's made moves to improve the team but, imo, could have been more efficient.

 

[DazedandConfused]

It's still a 1st round pick no longer in the Sabres possession.

I'm not fully sold on Murray yet. Frankly, I just haven't seen anything particularly cunning less genius. I really like adding Kane, but assume the price was high. I don't hate Bogo but, I think we downgraded on D (certainly arguable though). They're definitely different players altogether. And I know Myers/Bogo wasn't the crux of the trade. Still don't really understand the argument against signing Casey Bailey. LA moves are pending approval . Essentially, a future first line has rounded out, strengthening the entire line up, at the expense of an unbalanced farm. The former is more important than the latter but, I like to think they could have both.

I'm compelled to compare him to Darcy, which really isn't fair at all. Darcy didn't have the green lights that TM gets, which works both ways; also puts pressure on TM to go get the Kane's out there. Darcy almost always got good value though. TM has the assets but has maybe been a bit too gratuitous with them. He's made moves to improve the team but, imo, could have been more efficient.

And Kane is a 1st line winger now in Buffalo's possession.

No matter how much of a genius you are, when your in the middle of a full-blown scorched earth tear down there's not much you really can do outside of ride the waves and set a few near-term players in place (Kane, Bogo, Fasching, Des)

That's one ofthe benefits of having all these assets. We have the luxury of adding one more piece then everyone else and not hurting us as much as the next guy.

We really can't judge him much up to this point, but he has a clear plan and tha's all I really expect at this point.

 

[enthusiast]

He came into a situation where he was playing with a stacked deck. He can't control that but time will tell better than the past year or so

that is to say he's by no means been poor but when people were fawning over him trading people for market value or worse at deadline because tank you have to pump the breaks a bit on the genius thing

 

[Matt Ress]

And Kane is a 1st line winger now in Buffalo's possession.

I think you missed the rest of the argument.

No matter how much of a genius you are, when your in the middle of a full-blown scorched earth tear down there's not much you really can do outside of ride the waves and set a few near-term players in place (Kane, Bogo, Fasching, Des)

I appreciate the sentiment

That's one ofthe benefits of having all these assets. We have the luxury of adding one more piece then everyone else and not hurting us as much as the next guy.

Definitely agree with this notion. I would still like to see more frugality in his moves though. One doesn't stay a millionaire by spending frivolous.

We really can't judge him much up to this point, but he has a clear plan and tha's all I really expect at this point.

He'll yeah! We're all judging him and probably will continue to do so. Lol we just can't really consider our judgments as absolutes at this point.

I didn't intend to edit your remarks, just add my own. My b.

 

[Duddy]

Some moves that look good now, could look horrible in a few seasons. Some bad ones might be looked at a brilliant stunt in a few years.

You can't really judge him yet.

 

[Needles]

If we want to take pokes at Murray's GM performance thus far, sure, it's possible. The #1 thing I would point out (no one has in this thread) is that he even traded for Neuvirth in the first place. Why did he? He's on the record in saying that he believed Neuvirth was the top goaltender in the Capitals organization. Why would he trade for the top goaltender in anyone's organization to play on a team that's supposed to finish dead last?

Because he saw Neuvirth as an asset. If you can get another organization's best goaltender for a 3rd round pick, that's good asset management. And when Neuvirth got more starts and played well, his value should've gone up more. I'm sure Murray thought he could turn that 3rd rounder (Neuvirth) eventually into a 2nd rounder. But the market wasn't there this time.

 

[ZZamboni]

Too early for this thread. But as of right now, with as little to go on as this ...... He's done well, little complaints.

 

[Karate Johnson*]

Like I said earlier, it's impossible to rate the job Murray is doing as a whole because the bottom line will be in 2-3 years where we are in the standings.


I do like Murrays style. He doesn't overvalue prospects and picks. Not afraid to move them, not afraid to overpay. I like my GM's aggressive.

 

[Freezerburn]

I don't know if someone said this earlier in the thread or not but its weird reading about internal caps and budgets regarding the Jets. They have the richest owner in the entire league, I doubt they are that worried about contracts.

 

[Royisgone]

The team has been dismantled pretty effectively. That includes the work done by Darcy before Tim came on board.

Murray will be judged, in my opinion, by how well he puts the pieces back together, and his ability to find top talent with all the assets we have.

A bunch of busts or "not quite what we hope for" players will be bad.

However, if he can put a team of winners together, he'll go down as a hero in WNY, kind of like Bill Polian.

It's WAY TOO EARLY to say how it will go down.

 

[wunderpanda]

Im sorry, but are you actually trying to use selecting Reinhart as a negative against Murray? Obvious anti-Murray agenda is obvious

There is no agenda and I didn't use Reinhart as a negative, merely stated that he wasn't NHL ready. As the first pick of the Murray era, it felt he should be included in my overview. Also seems relevant based on the McEichel & Reinhart polls, fair amount of posters don't see him as a 1st line center.

I'm sure I left other moves or potential criticisms out, like Dalpe, Luke Adam trade, passing on Babyshev or that Brycen Martin is looking like a 3rd round steal.

 

[SabreBlood]

Because he saw Neuvirth as an asset. If you can get another organization's best goaltender for a 3rd round pick, that's good asset management. And when Neuvirth got more starts and played well, his value should've gone up more. I'm sure Murray thought he could turn that 3rd rounder (Neuvirth) eventually into a 2nd rounder. But the market wasn't there this time.

If that was the reason, the risk of falling out of 30th to turn a 3rd rounder into a 2nd rounder is too big of a risk for that payoff. There had to be another reason.

If we sign Neuvirth in the off season, it would all make sense.

 

[wunderpanda]

http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/sto...r-mcdavid-buffalo-sabres-tim-murray-obsession

....Sabres General Manager Tim Murray is starting to come clean about tanking to satiate his obsession with phenom Connor McDavid.

"I watch him too much and I think too much about him," Murray told the New York Times. "I wish I could help myself."

I know context is everything, but it just seems creepy to me.

 

[jBuds]

http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/sto...r-mcdavid-buffalo-sabres-tim-murray-obsession



I know context is everything, but it just seems creepy to me.

He really is Dwight Schrute.

"Ideal lady.... Pretty face. Plush bosoms - not for me, for my children. Nourishment."

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Maybe other GMs have been quoted talking about McDavid like that also, but I don't think it's the best thing for Murray to gush over him. If he loses the lottery do these comments have an effect on trade talks? Probably not, but it shows that Murray might offer an overpayment, something even above and beyond what it would normally take to move from #2 to #1, and I really hate that thought. But mainly, how does it look and feel for everyone involved if Murray blathers on about McDavid, and then has to shake hands with Eichel on draft day? I just think it's best for a GM to keep quiet about this stuff.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Too soon. He had 1 job. 7 games left.

 

[cybresabre]

Maybe other GMs have been quoted talking about McDavid like that also, but I don't think it's the best thing for Murray to gush over him. If he loses the lottery do these comments have an effect on trade talks? Probably not, but it shows that Murray might offer an overpayment, something even above and beyond what it would normally take to move from #2 to #1, and I really hate that thought. But mainly, how does it look and feel for everyone involved if Murray blathers on about McDavid, and then has to shake hands with Eichel on draft day? I just think it's best for a GM to keep quiet about this stuff.

Think of the effect it'll have on trade talks if we win the lottery, though! The man probably is lukewarm on Connor and Eichels it to warm thoughts of Jack. He's playing everyone for a fool except me.

 

[cramdizzl]

I think Murray is getting a lot of credit that really belongs to Darcy, who was a great GM to have during the razing. Have to take a wait and see approach with Murray, he hasn't done enough to judge yet. That being said, I like the cut of his jib and his determination to get what he wants like in the Kane trade.

 

[Deleted member 27798]

yes I like what he's done but there were some moves that annoyed me. Not overly fond of the Kane deal in terms of what we gave up and he held on to Stewart for far too long

^^^ I agree with this. I would have voted for a choice somewhere in between the two options that were given.