Tim Murray

[CatsforReinhart]

Half the team (including both goalies) belongs in the AHL and we're required to spend to the cap floor. I'm not sure what more Murray could really have done to ensure 30th place.

We're going to need NHL talent and NHL veterans once tank mode goes away, and you can't get them all in a single offseason.

What could he have done? let me help. I am not a GM though.

Trade away Stewart sooner. Trade away Neuvrith sooner, trade away Enroth sooner. Not sign Moulson, Not sign Gionta. Not bring back NHL talent like Bogosian in the Myers trade.

Can you tell me why we need veterans if the team is trying to get McEichel? Seems like that is just not true. We have free agency every july 1st. Can sign or trade for veteran talent after you get McEichel.

Your arguement is both goalies belong in the AHL but they have only been here a few weeks. Could of pulled the trigger sooner.

 

[DazedandConfused]

Why did he bring in Mezsaros, Benoit and Strachan, they suck!

Murrays a failure if we don't finish last!

Oh no Reinhart didn't step into the NHL right away from a draft that produced 1 immediate full-fledged NHLer.

 

[CatsforReinhart]

Why did he bring in Mezsaros, Benoit and Strachan, they suck!

Murrays a failure if we don't finish last!

Oh no Reinhart didn't step into the NHL right away from a draft that produced 1 immediate full-fledged NHLer.

Here we go with the over dramatization to protect Murray.

I never did it with my points.

I think you meant to say,"Murray failed at that goal."

 

[FearTheBeard]

You can absolutely judge individual deals based on the currently available data. We're doing that.



Why in the world would what the other GM says about a deal be invalid? It's an insight on mindset, what it is they value, etc. Would it be better if I said Darren Pang thought Myers was the best player in the deal, instead?



You believe that a real dollar savings of, what, nearly $10M (going from memory) has no value at all to the Winnipeg franchise?

You're the king of taking things out of context aren't you? 3 for 3

1) Absolutely you can. I said you can't come to a conclusion about a deal, not that you can't judge it. I literally said right after you can judge it when I said "you can like or dislike it"

2) Its not what the other GM says about the deal, its when you misquote the other GM which makes it invalid. Never did I say what Chevy said was invalid. I said your point was invalid due to misquoting him

3) Once again who the hell cares about Winnipeg's financial situation. That has literally 0 effect on our organization. Whether a cap situation is beneficial to them or not makes no difference to us.

 

[DazedandConfused]

I don't know the names of posters who've said it but I've seen that comment quite a few times, and always get a chuckle out of it.

 

[CatsforReinhart]

You're the king of taking things out of context aren't you? 3 for 3

1) Absolutely you can. I said you can't come to a conclusion about a deal, not that you can't judge it. I literally said right after you can judge it when I said "you can like or dislike it"

2) Its not what the other GM says about the deal, its when you misquote the other GM which makes it invalid. Never did I say what Chevy said was invalid. I said your point was invalid due to misquoting him

3) Once again who the hell cares about Winnipeg's financial situation. That has literally 0 effect on our organization. Whether a cap situation is beneficial to them or not makes no difference to us.

Number 3 is quite naive.

It's called leverage. Not to drag JAME into this but he uses it in his posts all the time when it comes to player value. Contracts can always be used for leverage especially against small market teams or teams with enternal caps. If Buffalo has already paid 10,000,000 bonus then it makes Myers more valuable in a trade then if he is stilled owed 10,000,000.

We need to keep track of this thread and in two years do another poll and revisit this. Would be quite interesting.

 

[Reddawg]

Can you tell me why we need veterans if the team is trying to get McEichel? Seems like that is just not true. We have free agency every july 1st. Can sign or trade for veteran talent after you get McEichel.

There's almost nothing available in free agency this year...just because free agency exists doesn't mean a magical list of good, available veteran players that will sign here exists.

Free agency this year is basically Michael Frolik, Andrej Sekera, Mike Green, Antti Niemi and that's about it.

We signed Moulson who is still capable of multiple 25+ goal seasons for us (with a good center) and acquired Gorges who is a top four defenseman for nearly any team in the league. We signed Gionta, and granted he's never going to be what he was in New Jersey again but he's a good leader, a good guy to have around the kids, and still a good hockey player who will be here two more years. We signed rental defensemen because we needed NHL D and we needed to spend money getting them (cap floor). It's no coincidence that Meszaros got the exact amount as our last signing that brought Buffalo right to the floor.

You can't build a team in a single free agency period. It's impossible.

 

[CatsforReinhart]

There's almost nothing available in free agency this year...just because free agency exists doesn't mean a magical list of good, available veteran players that will sign here exists.

Free agency this year is basically Michael Frolik, Andrej Sekera, Mike Green, Antti Niemi and that's about it.

We signed Moulson who is still capable of multiple 25+ goal seasons for us (with a good center) and acquired Gorges who is a top four defenseman for nearly any team in the league. We signed Gionta, and granted he's never going to be what he was in New Jersey again but he's a good leader, a good guy to have around the kids, and still a good hockey player who will be here two more years. We signed rental defensemen because we needed NHL D and we needed to spend money getting them (cap floor). It's no coincidence that Meszaros got the exact amount as our last signing that brought Buffalo right to the floor.

You can't build a team in a single free agency period. It's impossible.

Gionta will retire before this team is ready to compete and Moulson will be lucky to be a third line player So???


Bold
Never said that, but you can add complimentary players one you have built through the draft Risto, Reinhart, Girgs, Zads, McCabe, McEichel ect...
This team will be 2 or 3 years from competing so you have 3 years of UFAs.

So I am not sure why you make that statement.

 

[Reddawg]

Gionta will retire before this team is ready to compete and Moulson will be lucky to be a third line player So???

If Moulson is a 3rd line player, we're doing great. I'm fine with Gionta retiring before we're competitive (although I don't believe that will be the case, I firmly believe Buffalo will be in the playoff picture next season), he'll have done his job of mentoring the prospects we have and will acquire this year by then, it's what he was brought in for.

I'm not sure what you want me to say, we're 3 points back of 29th place with 9 games to go, and the only reason it's that close is because another team in the league actually sucks as much as we do. Being an NHL GM doesn't come with a crystal ball.

 

[Ralonzo]

You're the king of taking things out of context aren't you? 3 for 3

Does that make you the king of personal slights in every post? 3 for 3.

1) Absolutely you can. I said you can't come to a conclusion about a deal, not that you can't judge it. I literally said right after you can judge it when I said "you can like or dislike it"

I don't even know how to address a semantic argument predicated on the difference between "making a judgment" and "reaching a conclusion." I'm not a lawyer.

2) Its not what the other GM says about the deal, its when you misquote the other GM which makes it invalid. Never did I say what Chevy said was invalid. I said your point was invalid due to misquoting him

If you're going to invalidate people's points permanently based on two words since recanted, and go on about it, then you won't have many productive discussions. Point stands in it's corrected form, and thanks for the correction.

3) Once again who the hell cares about Winnipeg's financial situation. That has literally 0 effect on our organization. Whether a cap situation is beneficial to them or not makes no difference to us.

This is incorrect. That whole initial post was about the relative leverage points of the deal, and that with little empirical leverage, Winnipeg somehow got all of it and a fruit basket out of the deal. That does reflect on Murray IMO.

 

[Reddawg]

Never said that, but you can add complimentary players one you have built through the draft Risto, Reinhart, Girgs, Zads, McCabe, McEichel ect...
This team will be 2 or 3 years from competing so you have 3 years of UFAs.

So I am not sure why you make that statement.

Because you claim not to understand why Murray brought any veterans at all in during 2014 free agency. I'm explaining exactly why he did that.

 

[CatsforReinhart]

Because you claim not to understand why Murray brought any veterans at all in during 2014 free agency. I'm explaining exactly why he did that.

What I claimed was if his goal is to win the McEchiel sweeps then why bring in a player who can contribute to the success of the team. Why spend 2 years tanking to bring in players that can jepordize that. If we don't get McEichel this team is looking the same with the addition of Reinhart and Kane. We could be here again next year.

That is my criticism of Murray. I could care less about losing Myers if we get McEichel which some fans are unhappy about.(Myers that is).

As I said with my first post for me it is too early to tell about Murray. If we don't get McEichel but win the Stanley cup I will have no problem saying he is the best GM in sabres history.

Is criticizing Murray if we lose out on McDavid and Eichel wrong?

 

[ZeroPT*]

How about bringing back Bogosian that has definitely hurt the tank. Why not bring back Prospects like Domi or whoever.

I am a bit confused if our goal is McDavid why guys like Gionta, Moulson and Bogosian are on this team.

If the goal is McEichel then why bring in NHL talent?

If we lose McEichel that is on Murray. Will be interesting to see how many pro Murray fans blame Murray or blame the lottery, Arizona, the schedule, the refs, other teams but not Murray.

There is so much wrong with this post I don't even know where to start. Incredible.

Get back a prospect like Domi? What? You realise that Arizona would have no desire for Myers. Not only that but you do realise that we WILL need NHL talent and NHL level players in order to ascend in the standings, right?

Furthermore, Gionta,Gorges,Moulson and company have been largely irrelevant most of the year.

I've never seen someone with such weak arguments. Carry in with you Murray crusade though. Its entertaining to see you twist the most basic moves into a negative.

 

[CatsforReinhart]

There is so much wrong with this post I don't even know where to start. Incredible.

Get back a prospect like Domi? What? You realise that Arizona would have no desire for Myers. Not only that but you do realise that we WILL need NHL talent and NHL level players in order to ascend in the standings, right?

Furthermore, Gionta,Gorges,Moulson and company have been largely irrelevant most of the year.

I've never seen someone with such weak arguments. Carry in with you Murray crusade though. Its entertaining to see you twist the most basic moves into a negative.

You have not been watching sabres games if you think Gionta and Moulson have been irrelevant.

Again with the over dramatization to protect Murray at any cost.

My two criticisms of Murray are bringing in talent that hurts the tank and not trading away players soon enough. If they lose out on McEichel then that is on him.

Your argument is my points are not valid because I am carrying on a crusade against him even though I said it is too early to tell.

Also I said a prospect LIKE Domi or whoever thus meaning similar Mantha, Lazar, Horvat whoever is willing to separate from the prospect for Myers but yet you take it literally then blow up with criticism.

Sounds like you are the one with the crusade.

 

[jBuds]

It's waaaaay too early to tell. I'm fine with what I've seen so far. Comments based on quips above:

• whether or not the goal was to get McEichel, and whether or not it happens, our turnaround is still in tact and we are heading in the right direction, adding a high and probably low first round prospects to the leagues top pool as currently constituted ...

• he came in after the purge was underway. He has continued it adequately. We won't know how he does until he finishes tinkering and then it blossoms into whatever it turns out to be

• because of the above, I think that my biggest praise of him is this:

the Myers/Kane&Bogo trade was the first mark of an ascension from the bottom... It was the first deal since the roster purge started that signifies an attempt to get this roster stabilized

He used parts of assets acquired in the purge to couple with roster bodies he deemed expendable and of the prior regime's creation, to acquire two players he thought will be anchor pieces of this contenders mothership he is trying to build. And with Kane having elite scoring potential, the possibility of the boom is valued high enough to offset the potential of the bust for this trade.

 

[jBuds]

My biggest knock on him was keeping Nolan on when Murray was hired. Instead of putting his foot down, he stayed quiet to appease LaFontaine and the content fan base and allowed potential failure to be pinned on Nolan.

A stopgap crutch. But we don't need to get into that again. I know I'm in the minority with that one.

 

[UnleashRasmus]

Love him, won't dismiss his ability to understand that the team needed to be stripped down and has done that. He's made mistakes to improve the team. Overall I've loved the additions. Fine by me with what he's done.

 

[FearTheBeard]

Does that make you the king of personal slights in every post? 3 for 3.



I don't even know how to address a semantic argument predicated on the difference between "making a judgment" and "reaching a conclusion." I'm not a lawyer.



If you're going to invalidate people's points permanently based on two words since recanted, and go on about it, then you won't have many productive discussions. Point stands in it's corrected form, and thanks for the correction.



This is incorrect. That whole initial post was about the relative leverage points of the deal, and that with little empirical leverage, Winnipeg somehow got all of it and a fruit basket out of the deal. That does reflect on Murray IMO.

How is clarifying what I said invalidating a post permanently? I said the INITIAL post was invalid, when you had said he took our top 2 prospects. Since it has been corrected, I do agree with you.

In terms of the leverage, that is such a minuscule factor in a trade such as this one. Unless Murray plans on trading Bogosian again before his contract runs out, the amount we owe him really doesn't matter to Pegula, or Murray. There were players Murray wanted, good players. He did what was necessary to acquire them. A financial leverage situation in a future hypothetical trade scenario is really not something to get upset about.

 

[ZeroPT*]

You have not been watching sabres games if you think Gionta and Moulson have been irrelevant.

They have been. Gorges has missed a crap load of time, Gionta has largely played average and Moulson has been invisible.

Again with the over dramatization to protect Murray at any cost.

I`m not protecting Murray. I'm calling you out.

My two criticisms of Murray are bringing in talent that hurts the tank and not trading away players soon enough. If they lose out on McEichel then that is on him.

The bolded is completely ridiculous. Having Ennis,Kane, Bogosian,Gorges,Moulson and Gionta along with other vets we will likely bring in this summer is going to be the difference between being Edmonton or NYI and sitting on our hands or being Chicago.

our argument is my points are not valid because I am carrying on a crusade against him even though I said it is too early to tell.

No my argument is that your arguments are idiotic. ''he should have traded for Domi or something'' is completely stupid.

Also I said a prospect LIKE Domi or whoever thus meaning similar Mantha, Lazar, Horvat whoever is willing to separate from the prospect for Myers but yet you take it literally then blow up with criticism.

Okay, and who owuld`ve given up that prospect? if anything that Myers trade should be good for you since we only got a lesser version of Myers AND traded Stafford away. Net loss.

Let`s see what bogus come back you have for this

Sounds like you are the one with the crusade.

Sure. I'm the one who goes thread to thread calling out ''Murray lovers''. Just stop.

 

[Reddawg]

Having Ennis,Kane, Bogosian,Gorges,Moulson and Gionta along with other vets we will likely bring in this summer is going to be the difference between being Edmonton or NYI and sitting on our hands or being Chicago.

Very well said.

 

[CatsforReinhart]

Also not happy with losing the 1st round pick. I have no doubt we could of packaged the 2 late firsts and gotten some LIKE Barzal or Kylington.

 

[DazedandConfused]

Also not happy with losing the 1st round pick. I have no doubt we could of packaged the 2 late firsts and gotten some LIKE Barzal or Kylington.

We still have 2 late firsts if you think about it

But the point was to get proven NHL ready talent, not wait 3 years for those guys to be ready.

 

[Reddawg]

Also not happy with losing the 1st round pick. I have no doubt we could of packaged the 2 late firsts and gotten some LIKE Barzal or Kylington.

The way Kylington's stock is falling and the way the Islanders are falling in the standings, he'll probably still be available to us in the 16-22 range.

Moving up in last year's draft proved to be nearly impossible (Murray is on record as saying he tried to package all three 2nd rounders for a single higher pick and couldn't get anyone interested) so I don't see any reason to believe this year would be any easier in a much better draft class. The first brought us a first line winger already and we don't even have to develop him, he's ready for his prime years with us.

 

[Reddawg]

We still have 2 late firsts if you think about it

This is also true, there's not going to be much difference in the quality of prospect you get with the Blues 1st rounder or our own 2nd rounder.

 

[FearTheBeard]

Also not happy with losing the 1st round pick. I have no doubt we could of packaged the 2 late firsts and gotten some LIKE Barzal or Kylington.

uh ok? By that theory of yours, we still could. Lets say St. Louis wins the cup. That first we lost, is going to be one pick ahead of our #2