Thoughts on Kronwall this year...

[RedWingsNow*]

How did Lidstrom do it? It does not have to be Stuart's way. It just has to be effective.

Lidstrom did not do it alone.
He had Konstantinov. Chelios. Rouse. Fischer. ETC

Someone has to play tough.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

And that's not describing Stuart how exactly?

Stuart didn't "play defense like a man" every shift, or season for that matter, either.

You;ve had it out for Stuart ever since Babcock said "Stuart's been our best defenseman"

Go away.

If you think Ericsson match's Stuart's intensity-- good for you.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Lidstrom did not do it alone.
He had Konstantinov. Chelios. Rouse. Fischer. ETC

Someone has to play tough.

I do agree. Rafalski scared the pants off every forward entering the zone when he played.

 

[Laser Rayzor]

I do agree. Rafalski scared the pants off every forward entering the zone when he played.

Ian White is a bone breaker as well.....just ask Sammy

 

[norrisnick]

You;ve had it out for Stuart ever since Babcock said "Stuart's been our best defenseman"

Go away.

If you think Ericsson match's Stuart's intensity-- good for you.

Stuart didn't match Stuart's intensity (the levels you've ascribed to him anyway), so you can't really expect E to match them either.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

Lidstrom did not do it alone.
He had Konstantinov. Chelios. Rouse. Fischer. ETC

Someone has to play tough.

Just stop. You don't make your case for hockey smarts by trying to play down Nicklas Lidstrom. Not on a Red Wings board, and certainly not on a public forum of many hockey fans.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Just stop. You don't make your case for hockey smarts by trying to play down Nicklas Lidstrom. Not on a Red Wings board, and certainly not on a public forum of many hockey fans.

I don't think he was downplaying him. Lidstrom was only human (i think) and he did need somebody else covering the other side of the ice.

Lidstrom wasn't God mode Lidstrom his entire career.

The guy carried the team for a good chunk, but he had a ton of help. The Wings weren't the best team in the NHL just because of Lidstrom. It took quite a few elite forwards and a ton of depth.

I am not downplaying Lidstrom, just hopefully clarifying Bob's position.

Tough to downplay a player who is arguably one of the three best defense man to ever play the game.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

I don't think he was downplaying him. Lidstrom was only human (i think) and he did need somebody else covering the other side of the ice.

Lidstrom wasn't God mode Lidstrom his entire career.

The guy carried the team for a good chunk, but he had a ton of help. The Wings weren't the best team in the NHL just because of Lidstrom. It took quite a few elite forwards and a ton of depth.

I am not downplaying Lidstrom, just hopefully clarifying Bob's position.

Tough to downplay a player who is arguably one of the three best defense man to ever play the game.

That's not his point. Essentially, he's saying since Lidstrom didn't have "Intensity" that is apparently characteristic of Stuart's play, he was greatly helped by the fact that there were other people on the team to do whatever the heck Captain Bob thinks Dmen should do. Utter BS. Lidstrom didn't need to be what I will henceforth dub "Brad Stuart tough," nor did he need "Brad Stuart tough" to cover for his lack of a physical game. Granted, you have two defensemen on the ice at the same time. That's necessary. Suggesting Lidstrom couldn't "do it" without a "Brad Stuart toughness" covering his other end is stupid. Larry Murphy and Rafalski were PMDs. Lidstrom did quite fine with them, IIRC.

 

[14ari13]

Lidstrom did not do it alone.
He had Konstantinov. Chelios. Rouse. Fischer. ETC

Someone has to play tough.

Kronwall is a great hitter himself. He just needs a good defensive minded partner. Taking over Lidstrom's spot and getting Lashoff is not the best place to start. I have no idea what Babcock tried that experiment. Maybe he tried to boost both players confidence. I honestly do not know.

You;ve had it out for Stuart ever since Babcock said "Stuart's been our best defenseman"

Go away.

If you think Ericsson match's Stuart's intensity-- good for you.

Babcock aslo said that Z was our best player by a country mile, while we know very well that he and Datsyuk are a wash.
Stuart was good in his way, but I think Ericsson can be as effective in his way. Ericsson is huge has a better pass than Stuart and has a cannon. He is still developing. It takes a long time to develop for a player of his size and his position.

That's not his point. Essentially, he's saying since Lidstrom didn't have "Intensity" that is apparently characteristic of Stuart's play, he was greatly helped by the fact that there were other people on the team to do whatever the heck Captain Bob thinks Dmen should do. Utter BS. Lidstrom didn't need to be what I will henceforth dub "Brad Stuart tough," nor did he need "Brad Stuart tough" to cover for his lack of a physical game. Granted, you have two defensemen on the ice at the same time. That's necessary. Suggesting Lidstrom couldn't "do it" without a "Brad Stuart toughness" covering his other end is stupid. Larry Murphy and Rafalski were PMDs. Lidstrom did quite fine with them, IIRC.

And let's not forget that in '02 his partner was Olausson who nobody wanted in the league.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Just stop. You don't make your case for hockey smarts by trying to play down Nicklas Lidstrom. Not on a Red Wings board, and certainly not on a public forum of many hockey fans.

Please stop what?
Saying that there was more than Lidstrom on this this team's defense?

Like in 97, when Konstantinov had more votes for Norris than Lidstrom? Like in 02? When Chelios was 3rd or 4th in Norris voting?

Nobody is downplaying Lidstrom.

You're downplaying the fact that Red Wings have needed certain amounts of toughness on defense to win.
97, 98, 02 and 07.
Each team had more toughness than on D than our team now.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

That's not his point. Essentially, he's saying since Lidstrom didn't have "Intensity" that is apparently characteristic of Stuart's play, he was greatly helped by the fact that there were other people on the team to do whatever the heck Captain Bob thinks Dmen should do. Utter BS. Lidstrom didn't need to be what I will henceforth dub "Brad Stuart tough," nor did he need "Brad Stuart tough" to cover for his lack of a physical game. Granted, you have two defensemen on the ice at the same time. That's necessary. Suggesting Lidstrom couldn't "do it" without a "Brad Stuart toughness" covering his other end is stupid. Larry Murphy and Rafalski were PMDs. Lidstrom did quite fine with them, IIRC.

You don't know what my point is.
I'm telling you what my point is, and you're not listening.

Lidstrom didn't need "cover'
But the team needed toughness. And we don't have that now.

We're talking about Ericsson trying to be Stuart. And Ericsson doesn't Stuart's motor, mindset or intensity.

Not Lidstrom.
MOD

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I do agree. Rafalski scared the pants off every forward entering the zone when he played.

Is that sarcasm? I'm lost ArGarBarGarBarGarBarArGarBar

 

[Epsilon]

Predictable thread on the main board whining about Kronwall.

I love how much he riles up whiny fans of other teams with his hits.

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

Just stop. You don't make your case for hockey smarts by trying to play down Nicklas Lidstrom. Not on a Red Wings board, and certainly not on a public forum of many hockey fans.

If you were a fan before 2009 you'd know that Konstantinov was arguably better than Lidstrom during the time they both played.

Also, for someone who champions reading comprehension you sure do seem to miss the point of what people are saying a lot.

 

[Epsilon]

If you were a fan before 2009 you'd know that Konstantinov was arguably better than Lidstrom during the time they both played.

Also, for someone who champions reading comprehension you sure do seem to miss the point of what people are saying a lot.

The age and development gap had a lot to do with that (Konstantinov is 3 years older than Lidstrom), and by the end of the 1997 playoffs it wasn't hard to see Lidstrom would be passing Konstantinov pretty soon (which he would have done in 97-98 regardless of if Konstantinov had not been involved in a car accident). His offensive instincts and abilities were way higher and his defensive game fully rounded into form.

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

The age and development gap had a lot to do with that (Konstantinov is 3 years older than Lidstrom), and by the end of the 1997 playoffs it wasn't hard to see Lidstrom would be passing Konstantinov pretty soon (which he would have done in 97-98 regardless of if Konstantinov had not been involved in a car accident). His offensive instincts and abilities were way higher and his defensive game fully rounded into form.

This would be relevant if I was arguing that he'd end up having the better career. I was simply helping Jman understand that what Bob said was true.

 

[Epsilon]

I'm bathing myself with the tears being shed in the Kronwall thread on the main board right now. Hilarious how butt-hurt so many people are over his hits.

 

[Sadekuuro]

Has he even clobbered anyone this year? I can't remember any.

 

[SoupNazi]

I'm bathing myself with the tears being shed in the Kronwall thread on the main board right now. Hilarious how butt-hurt so many people are over his hits.

Glad to know I'm not the only one.

I wonder what brought that thread on to begin with.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

Please stop what?

You clearly don't read.

Saying that there was more than Lidstrom on this this team's defense?

Stop with the red herrings. You know what you were talking about.

Like in 97, when Konstantinov had more votes for Norris than Lidstrom? Like in 02? When Chelios was 3rd or 4th in Norris voting?

Like in 97 when Lidstrom shut down the Legion of Doom. Like in 02 when Lidstrom won the Norris trophy.

Nobody is downplaying Lidstrom.

Clearly you are. Lidstrom doesn't play Brad Stuart style, therefore you argue he needs help from other physical guys to be good. How else could I interpret what you were saying? You have a history of ragging on Lidstrom. You were responding to a post asking how Lidstrom was the 2nd best Dman in the history of the game and never had a physical game. You responded, "Herp derp, he had physical teammates to be physical for him." It leads me to believe you're arguing that Lidstrom was nothing without physicality on his right side.

You're downplaying the fact that Red Wings have needed certain amounts of toughness on defense to win.
97, 98, 02 and 07.
Each team had more toughness than on D than our team now.

We're talking about Nick Lidstrom here, not the Dcorps of old. Knock it off.

You don't know what my point is.
I'm telling you what my point is, and you're not listening.

You clearly don't know your own points...

Lidstrom didn't need "cover'

Lidstrom did not do it alone.
He had Konstantinov. Chelios. Rouse. Fischer. ETC

Someone has to play tough.

Then what the heck is this? German? A hidden message in pig latin? It looks like you're trying to say "Lidstrom didn't play a physical game and was the best Dman in the league in his time, but someone needed to cover for his lack of a physical game."
But the team needed toughness. And we don't have that now.

MOD

 

[RedWingsNow*]

The age and development gap had a lot to do with that (Konstantinov is 3 years older than Lidstrom), and by the end of the 1997 playoffs it wasn't hard to see Lidstrom would be passing Konstantinov pretty soon (which he would have done in 97-98 regardless of if Konstantinov had not been involved in a car accident). His offensive instincts and abilities were way higher and his defensive game fully rounded into form.

Not so sure that's the case.

Konstantinov's offensive abilities were elite. His passing was fantastic. His ability to see the ice was great. And IMO, he was more dangerous joining the rush than Lidstrom.

But since he played a different role, so he didn't pile up points.

As evidence

96-97
Lidstrom 57 points +11
Konstantinov 38 points +38

Now... let's take away the powerplay.
Lidstrom 27 points.
Konstantinov 31 points

Vladdie had zero PP goals as Lidstrom and Murphy and Fedorov got most of the work on the point.

The year before... Coffey led all Red Wings with 40 even strength points.
Coffey 40 even strength points +19
Lidstrom 25 even strentgh points, +29
Festisov 27 even strength points +37
Konstantinov 25 even strength points +60

Now, Konstantinov was older and would have aged.

But IMO it was going to be hard for Lidstrom to win the reputation-based trophy with the way Konstantinov owned Detroit.

 

[Epsilon]

This nonsense about the Norris trophy being "reputation-based" doesn't exist anywhere outside of HFBoards.

And since when does the powerplay not matter?

Also, claiming Konstantinov "owned Detroit" when he only got Norris trophy consideration twice; in 1995-96, where he was solidly 4th and Lidstrom was solidly 6th), and 1996-97 (where he was barely 2nd and easily could have finished 5th - as he did in the All-Star Team voting, while Lidstrom was 6th); and considering how Lidstrom shut down Eric Lindros in the 1997 finals, is a pretty big exaggeration.

 

[Epsilon]

We need a series of KRONWALLED avatars which show him lining up his victims just before the moment of impact.

 

[Flowah]

And since when does the powerplay not matter?

It depends on whether Konstantinov got PP time or not. It's not fair to judge a guy for not producing points on the PP if he doesn't get the time.

 

[VladTheImpaler]

It is beyond me how there could be a thread on the main board about Kronwalling.

The guy hasn't hit anyone in almost a year lol.