I'd do more but most of the images I can find are of him after initial contact or are too blurry due to the speed he has coming at them.
Thoughts on Kronwall this year...
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I'd do more but most of the images I can find are of him after initial contact or are too blurry due to the speed he has coming at them.
Believe what you want. But the Norris is a reputation trophy -- more than most.
Of course the powerplay matters. But the PP is only a small part of a defenseman's job. It doesn't even have to be done by a defenseman.
That is no exaggeration at all, about Vladdie owning Detroit.
People liked Lidstrom. People in Detroit LOVED Konstantinov.
Even with the SCF, Konstantinov was still considered as the heart and soul of the Detroit defense.
Lidstrom was considered an offensive defenseman who was solid in his own end -- not elite.
I don't know of any Wings fans at all that held Konstantinov in higher regard than Lidstrom.
He was a great defenceman, but he was always #2 at best on the Wings blueline.
I'm guessing that you're 30 years old or younger and don't have a good appreciation for how revered Vladdie was in Detroit from 1995 to 1997
Konstantinov jerseys were all over Detroit.
This was a dude who could could score end to end, who made brilliant passes, and who hit like Kronwall and scrapped in the corners.
Why didn't Konstantinov score 60 points a year? Because he wasn't used on the first unit PP. Simple as that.
He was used first unit PK and Lidstrom was first unit PP
He was one-of-a-kind. Every bit as good as Lidstrom. Better, in fact, those couple years.
best video is probably this one
By the way--- In Both Years the Vladdie and Nick were in the Norris voting, Vladdie finished higher than Nick in Norris voting
Maybe I'm just missing your point here. If you were claiming that fans preferred Konstantinov in the same way Wings fans preferred Osgood to Hasek than I agree. Fans don't often pick their favorites based on who was the better player, personality and style has a lot to do with it.
Konstantinov's rougher style of play was more popular with Wings fans in the 90's because most of us had been accustomed to the Bruise Brothers and Lidstrom was as far from that style as can be.
Lidstrom was always the better player though even if he didn't have as many fans early in his career.
And Norris Trophy voters in Konstantinov's final two seasons disagree with you.
1997
Norris Trophy (Defenseman): 1. Brian Leetch, N.Y. Rangers, 494; 2. Vladimir Konstantinov, Detroit, 178; 3. Sandis Ozolinsh, Colorado, 176; 4. Chris Chelios, Chicago, 172; 5. Scott Stevens, New Jersey, 171; 6. Nicklas Lidstrom, Detroit, 60; 7. Darryl Sydor, Dallas, 45; 8. Ray Bourque, Boston, 45; 9. Eric Desjardins, Philadelphia, 21; 10. Oleg Tverdovsky, Phoenix, 9.
Can't find the 96 awards
Here's a quote:
"If Konstantinov had been born in Moose Jaw he would win the Norris Trophy every year" ..... Brendan Shanahan
At one point, Lindros called him the best defenseman in the league.
Lidstrom had the points.
But Konstantinov was better at that stage in their careers.
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Took voters a couple years to figure out just how good Lidstrom was. Once they did it was hard to get that trophy off his mantle.
Took voters a couple years to figure out just how good Lidstrom was. Once they did it was hard to get that trophy off his mantle.
It did. Many people felt Konstantinov was robbed because voters weren't ready to give the Norris to a European
I'm bathing myself with the tears being shed in the Kronwall thread on the main board right now. Hilarious how butt-hurt so many people are over his hits.
I got sucked into it too.
At least I got a new avatar out of it.
Thanks
NORRIS: Chris Chelios 408 (22-19-9-3-1); Ray Bourque 403 (23-16-8-7-0); Brian Leetch 245 (6-6-23-7-7); Vladimir Konstantinov 131 (2-6-7-10-4); Paul Coffey 83 (0-4-2-12-9); Nicklas Lidstrom 54 (0-1-3-7-11); Roman Hamrlik 25 (1-0-0-3-6); Gary Suter 11 (0-0-1-0-6); Eric Desjardins 9 (0-1-0-0-2); Scott Stevens 9 (0-0-0-2-3); Teppo Numminen 7 (0-1-0-0-0); Mark Tinordi 5 (0-0-1-0-0); Sergei Zubov 5 (0-0-0-1-2); Phil Housley 3 (0-0-0-1-0); Larry Murphy 3 (0-0-0-1-0); Shawn Chambers 1 (0-0-0-0-1); Calle Johansson 1 (0-0-0-0-1); Ed Jovanovski 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
The simple truth is that Lidstrom was just really starting to come into his own.
The 97 finals were his big coming coming out party. Vladdie wasn't around the NHL much longer after that, unfortunately.
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
The Konstantinov vs. Lidstrom debate was very real. I actually always came down on Lidstrom side, but Konstantinov was right there and for a lot of people better. They were a two headed monster and Lidstrom just continued getting better, we will never know with Vladdy unfortunately.
But I have to say it is pretty funny to watch The Fading Captain/Captain Bob make an argument based on Norris votes. Guess when it helps your case right buddy? However, lets dismiss it at every turn when arguing Lidstrom's 7 Norris Trophies and 4 cups and magically place Pronger over him for no reason even though they were against each other in all of those seasons.
But I have to say it is pretty funny to watch The Fading Captain/Captain Bob make an argument based on Norris votes. Guess when it helps your case right buddy? However, lets dismiss it at every turn when arguing Lidstrom's 7 Norris Trophies and 4 cups and magically place Pronger over him for no reason even though they were against each other in all of those seasons.
Took voters a couple years to figure out just how good Lidstrom was. Once they did it was hard to get that trophy off his mantle.
Or maybe he just vastly improved?
Brick Top
LANA!!!!!
Yeah, that's what I'm wondering too. I've only caught parts of the last 2 games but saw virtually all of the others this year and can't remember him hitting anyone, anywhere on the ice. Well, there was the game recently (can't remember exactly which one) where he created a 2 on 1 in OT for the other team by choosing to stand up the puck carrier inside the defensive zone (Z was already on the guy), the guy dishes the puck prior to contact and they scored the game winner (think it was against Columbus or Nashville). So there's that.
Vladdy84
L-O-Y-A-L-T-Y
USA Today doesn't watch the games. And gets their info from stats such as G, A, PTS and talking to the idiots in our local sports media.
ricky0034
Registered User
- Jun 8, 2010
- 15,009
- 7,194
Brick Top
LANA!!!!!
This year Kronwall is a stat sheet defenseman- looks productive on paper, but IMO his actual play has hurt the team far more than helped for the course of the season. It's laughable to think that he's the 5th best defenseman in the league.
I'm glad he's played better the last few games and seems to have realized that constantly screening Howard was actually a detriment to keeping the puck out of the net (crazy, I know). Hope his improved play continues too, but any Norris talk is crazy.
joe89
#5
- Apr 30, 2009
- 20,313
- 174
What Norris voters think says nothing about I think.
But when someone says most Detroit fans thought Lidstrom was better or liked Lidstrom more, I bring out the Norris voting-- Konstantinov had a much higher profile than Lidstrom did. And using Norris voting is a piece of evidence to make a point about PUBLIC PERCEPTION...
My arguments about why Konstantinov was better than Lidstrom at the time have nothing to do with Norris voting
So learn to read bud.
JmanWingsFan
Your average Jman
I would watch yourself before making that accusation. Saying he doesn't know how to read makes you look bad when you leave out an essential part of his argument. You essentially left out that last bit Zetterberg Era added, the one where Lidstrom won 7 Norris trophies, yet you constantly argue that they weren't meaningful... Or something on the lines of Chris Pronger being better. He's essentially pointing out your hypocrisy and lack of integrity when it comes to arguing.
No, I am not saying that at all.
I say: In 1996 and 1997, Konstantinov by Wings fans as the team's best defenseman.
Dude says: Nobody I know thought Konstantinov was better.
I say: Norris Trophy voters did.
Now--- Personally, I think Konstantinov was better in those years they played together.
But that's not the point. The point that was challenged was whether or not Detroit fans believed Lidstrom was better than Konstantinov, or vice versa.
There is no way to prove such a thing, of course. But one measure to consider is actual Norris Trophy voting.
As a Wings fan who frequented hockey newsgroups in 97, very few people EVER suggested that Lidstrom was better than Konstantinov.
It was commonly held among Wings fans that Konstantinov was the best defenseman in the game and that he was being snubbed because he was Russian.
Nobody was calling Lidstrom the best defenseman in hockey back in 1997.
If a player, like Vladdie, doesn't get as much PP time as someone else, like Lidstrom, there may be a reason for that as it relates to their ability in that role. It's not a case of, "well if Vladdie got Lidstrom's PP time..." he didn't get his PP time bc Lids was better than him on the PP and the team was better when he was on the 1st unit.
I also don't see the point in trivializing the power play. A great power play defenseman is just as useful as a great PK defenseman and when you have one defenseman who is great at both, like Lidstrom, then that is truly special. The difference in their PP abilities was definitely a significant point in Lids favor as it relates to comparing their worth. So to was his lack of penalty minutes. Lids was the better player, IMO, regardless of public perception that tends to prefer flashy or physical players due to biases in the way our memory works.
I also don't see the point in trivializing the power play. A great power play defenseman is just as useful as a great PK defenseman and when you have one defenseman who is great at both, like Lidstrom, then that is truly special. The difference in their PP abilities was definitely a significant point in Lids favor as it relates to comparing their worth. So to was his lack of penalty minutes. Lids was the better player, IMO, regardless of public perception that tends to prefer flashy or physical players due to biases in the way our memory works.
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
I know you are using it to help make an argument, but it is funny considering how often you dismiss this same thing when it goes counter to your own viewpoint. I understand what you were doing in offering your piece of evidence, was just pointing out the hypocritcial nature of it.
I have long said Konstantinov and Lidstrom was a very real debate. I personally thought Lidstrom was better, but my father would argue tooth and nail on that back then and a lot of people would. You're not incorrect, just stunned you would use Norris stuff at all given your distaste for it in various other threads.
The 97 finals are a good example though when you pointed out Lidstrom's coming out party, who did everyone think would play Lindros? It wasn't just the size factor, Vladdy while he played big is actually closer to Kronwall than most people realize in stature. At the time it was believed in that season he was better, I will say that about 97, Konstantinov was getting a lot of attention. Most of what Lidstrom did was hard to see, his teammates constantly talked about, but until that 97 finals the national media and a lot of hockey fans didn't understand it.
As early as the 95 Finals Yzerman had started calling Lidstrom the best player on the team. At the time I thought it was a slap at Fedorov, it still kind of was, but I am just saying both Shanahan and Yzerman from my memory were on record before Konstantinov even had his tragic accident on their belief that Lidstrom was the best D-man on the team and in the league.
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