Thomas Vanek

[J22*]

Believe it or not Vanek still is one of the very best around the net. That's where he needs to go. Just forget about that "I need to be the playmaker" crap and head to the net and take care of business.

Kind of hard to be the " go to the net guy" when you're the one carrying the puck into the zone. For Vanek to be the goal scorer that everyone expects, he needs to play with guys that are willing/capable of holding onto the puck long enough to make a play.

 

[hirawl]

Kind of hard to be the " go to the net guy" when you're the one carrying the puck into the zone. For Vanek to be the goal scorer that everyone expects, he needs to play with guys that are willing/capable of holding onto the puck long enough to make a play.

Kind of hard to hold on to the puck when your "go to the net guy" carries it and turns it over right after the blue line.

 

[J22*]

Kind of hard to hold on to the puck when your "go to the net guy" carries it and turns it over right after the blue line.

Then maybe he should play with guys capable of carrying the puck through the neutral zone?

 

[Wild48]

Then maybe he should play with guys capable of carrying the puck through the neutral zone?

Nah, keep sending the roster's most gifted scorer out there with grinders. It's bound to work sometime.

 

[J22*]

Nah, keep sending the roster's most gifted scorer out there with grinders. It's bound to work sometime.

In a way it did work. The Wild now have the ability to run 3 lines that can score. Vanek is a major reason why that happened. The problem is that people see 20 goals and 50 points from a guy that usually goes 30-30 and they want to freak out. The reality is that there aren't many guys that are going to put up those kinds of numbers playing 13 minutes a night with a constant mixture of Coyle, Niederreiter, Brodziak, Haula, Zucker, Cooke, Carter, Fontaine and Schroeder.

 

[123TripleDoge]

the wild are unique in that they hate talent and want grinders to play with the talent to dumb them down

(sad that i feel like i actually need this, but here it is

 

[Nino Noderreiter]

the wild are unique in that they hate talent and want grinders to play with the talent to dumb them down

(sad that i feel like i actually need this, but here it is

Right, to a certain extent you are right.


It's this classic circular argument of "We only want North-South who can cycle and score goals around the net" aka just about everyone on this team other than Granlund and Vanek probably. And then the masses ask "We don't have enough top end talent, we need to be more dynamic, we have to work so much harder for every goal, etc. etc. Well there's a reason most star players also turn over the puck the most on the team.


Why? They have the puck the most, they are trying to hold onto it longer to make a play instead of just dumping it off or cycling, or they try and make a man miss and make a play...well you know what...even the best players in the world are going to turn the puck over doing this more than it works. But, you can also get goals when you don't have anything going for you. (Look at the Chicago series two seasons ago. That's the difference)


But you know let's blame Thomas Vanek for being the 3rd leading scorer on the team from the 3rd line playing with probably the weakest talent he has ever played with--he played with Okposo and Tavares before he came here...now he's playing with Coyle and Fontaine.



It's pretty easy to put the pieces together and see the explanation for everything people have been debating for months, but people hear something or start to believe something and then distort everything to fit their narrative.



Most of this board must hate watching highlight videos. All of those clips of those guys skating in circles around the entire offensive zone...

 

[Nino Noderreiter]

In a way it did work. The Wild now have the ability to run 3 lines that can score. Vanek is a major reason why that happened. The problem is that people see 20 goals and 50 points from a guy that usually goes 30-30 and they want to freak out. The reality is that there aren't many guys that are going to put up those kinds of numbers playing 13 minutes a night with a constant mixture of Coyle, Niederreiter, Brodziak, Haula, Zucker, Cooke, Carter, Fontaine and Schroeder.

I think Vanek was huge for the Wild in a 3rd line role and although that might not be what people were expecting attached to the name Vanek. He's not the Vanek from the Gophers, not the Vanek from Buffalo. But, he's still a very talented play maker and point producer. (Stop caring how people score their points everyone as long as that they did. A Vanek pass through 3 defenders that Fontaine taps in on the back-door is just as valuable as a Vanek snipe from the top high slot.)

Having 3 scoring lines was what made us, for a few months, the best and deepest team in hockey. I'd really love to see Zucker with Vanek even though he may deserve top 6 minutes--Vanek does still too. If you break yourselves from the cage of traditional hockey thought about the role each line plays it really makes sense for the Wild, with the style of game they play, to try and roll out the same caliber of talent continually and just keep things rolling so to speak. That's when the Wild are at there best. When you can't tell which line is which because it's just dominated by a 5 man unit keeping possession and winning puck battles in the offensive zone.


Vanek does need to be better than he was in the playoffs, but so do a lot of other players who do not have the name Vanek stitched to their back when they lace up the skates and take the ice for this team.


The amount of hate Vanek gets and how he's been made into a scapegoat is the product of people being lazy and not actually looking at Vanek's play and just thinking yup. we got Vanek. He should be a 1st liner and score 30 goals. He's Thomas Vanek.

Ok sure yes. But realize he doesn't have a role on the 1st line and Koivu isn't fast either, so he can't play there either. Do you guys not understand how valuable it is to be able to have basically your 2nd best goal scorer and playmaker on your 3rd line? Having him instead of some average 3rd liner?


Can no one look at not only the value he provides, but the value and ripple effects that his point production and roster spot have on this team?


Do you not understand that he has skills and abilities to make plays for us that not a single other player on the Wild have right now?

 

[nickschultzfan]

The Vanek and Pominville hate is very simple. All other players have other parts of their game that allows them to slot in other positions on the team. Vanek and Pominville don't. They only bring offensive production. So they are measured only by offensive production.

As such, Vanek and Pominville are measure against top line wingers in the league, because they are paid like them and those are the only slots that you get to just be an offensive - only player.

 

[J22*]

The Vanek and Pominville hate is very simple. All other players have other parts of their game that allows them to slot in other positions on the team. Vanek and Pominville don't. They only bring offensive production. So they are measured only by offensive production.

As such, Vanek and Pominville are measure against top line wingers in the league, because they are paid like them and those are the only slots that you get to just be an offensive - only player.

Parise, Granlund, Niederreiter and how they are viewed by the fan base dispel that theory rather quickly.

 

[Nino Noderreiter]

Parise, Granlund, Niederreiter and how they are viewed by the fan base dispel that theory rather quickly.

Parise is a goal-scorer, but not in the same way as Pominville and Vanek so I don't think you an compare the two. Same with Nino. Plus there's a difference between being 22-23 and having a world of potential left and being in your 30s.

Granlund is an interesting comparision, but and you've already seen a lot of people start to sour on him as a Center prospect when he really is quite good both offensively and defenensively.

 

[nickschultzfan]

Parise, Granlund, Niederreiter and how they are viewed by the fan base dispel that theory rather quickly.

Parise brings speed, retrieves pucks and is excellent in the defensive zone. He would be just as effective on a checking line.

Granlund is a center. That is stating the obvious, but it a more complex position that involves more defensive responsibility. If you recognize that a Dman provides more than than just offense you should realize that applies to centers. Wingers have other jobs too, like being physical and retrieving pucks, but neither Vanek nor Pominville partake in those other jobs.

Nino brings physicality and agitation with his winger role. The Wild is short on both of those qualities.

 

[J22*]

Parise brings speed, retrieves pucks and is excellent in the defensive zone. He would be just as effective on a checking line.

Granlund is a center. That is stating the obvious, but it a more complex position that involves more defensive responsibility. If you recognize that a Dman provides more than than just offense you should realize that applies to centers. Wingers have other jobs too, like being physical and retrieving pucks, but neither Vanek nor Pominville partake in those other jobs.

Nino brings physicality and agitation with his winger role. The Wild is short on both of those qualities.

Too funny. I guess if you consider all of Parise, Granlund, and Niederreiter's strengths as assets and none of Vanek's or Pominville's, your argument might make sense.

Parise- Sure he could play a checking line role, but there's zero chance he would be as effective as he is now. I would go as far as to say that if you gave Parise Vanek's icetime and linemates from last year, he probably scores 20 goals but there's zero chance he hits 50 points. Parise's defense is also extremely overrated. He's a puck chaser that never maintains position.

Granlund- I guess he gets a pass from actually producing offense because he's a poor 2-way center?

Nino- gets a pass because he is willing to get punched in the face after the whistle?

Don't get me wrong, I want every one of these guys to succeed and am a huge fan of both Parise and Nino, but to say they are any different than Vanek and Pominville when it comes to needing to score points to really contribute to the team is wrong.

 

[nickschultzfan]

Too funny. I guess if you consider all of Parise, Granlund, and Niederreiter's strengths as assets and none of Vanek's or Pominville's, your argument might make sense.

Parise- Sure he could play a checking line role, but there's zero chance he would be as effective as he is now. I would go as far as to say that if you gave Parise Vanek's icetime and linemates from last year, he probably scores 20 goals but there's zero chance he hits 50 points. Parise's defense is also extremely overrated. He's a puck chaser that never maintains position.

Granlund- I guess he gets a pass from actually producing offense because he's a poor 2-way center?

Nino- gets a pass because he is willing to get punched in the face after the whistle?

Don't get me wrong, I want every one of these guys to succeed and am a huge fan of both Parise and Nino, but to say they are any different than Vanek and Pominville when it comes to needing to score points to really contribute to the team is wrong.

So what do Vanek and Pominville bring besides points?

 

[DANOZ28]

CF knew what he was buying when he signed vanek & pommer. we needed offense and they provide it. i will always think we slightly overpaid for pommer , vanek im shocked he didnt holdout for more. each player brings a particular set of skills and its upto the gm to assemble a team that can get it done. subtract pommer & vanek and add another coyle & granlund we probably dont make the playoffs.

 

[MuckOG]

So what do Vanek and Pominville bring besides points?

Reading your post reminded me of a Buddy Ryan quote when a reporter asked him why they gave up on Cris Carter. His response was "All he does is catch touchdowns".

 

[Jarick]

I don't mind Pominville's game. I know he didn't score as much last year, but he at least shot the puck. He just had a historically low shooting percentage. That should bounce back even if he doesn't change his game at all just because of the law of averages.

Vanek on the other hand decided to shoot the puck far less than he ever has in his career. And in the recent interview with Russo, he basically decided to do it unilaterally and against the wishes of the coach. He complained that nobody was getting him the puck, but when he had it he didn't shoot.

 

[Lapa]

According to a Hockey Wilderness article, Vanek was the most productive last season when playing with Coyle. He was even more productive than when he was playing with Granlund. When Vanek was playing on the same line with Granlund, Vanek produced more shots.

http://www.hockeywilderness.com/201...ump-charlie-coyle-mikael-granlund-mikko-koivu

Interesting.

 

[Jarick]

I do think he would work better on that third line where he doesn't have a difficult matchup. I still am not sure Coyle is the long term center, but Haula doesn't seem to be the right fit and Graovac is still a year away.

 

[nickschultzfan]

There is nothing wrong with just bringing offense. Especially for a winger. But that's a double-edge sword that can't be ignored. Ever bit of extra production sky-rockets his salary. But every bit of less production brings warranted criticism.

That's just the role. Same as a striker in soccer.


Vanek and Pominville are the Olivier Giroud of the NHL.

 

[nickschultzfan]

I will say that I'm more comfortable with the line-up now than I was in August. Coyle and Graovac will be decent enough options at center. Our defense is going to be really dynamic. Vanek and Pominville are fine depth scorers. I think Zucker, Granlund, and Nino will have big years.

 

[J22*]

So what do Vanek and Pominville bring besides points?

Not much to be honest, but my point is that those two are not the only guys on the team that don't bring much if they aren't scoring. Add in the fact that they outscored everybody but Parise, and it is my opinion that they take much more heat than they deserve.

I don't mind Pominville's game. I know he didn't score as much last year, but he at least shot the puck. He just had a historically low shooting percentage. That should bounce back even if he doesn't change his game at all just because of the law of averages.

Vanek on the other hand decided to shoot the puck far less than he ever has in his career. And in the recent interview with Russo, he basically decided to do it unilaterally and against the wishes of the coach. He complained that nobody was getting him the puck, but when he had it he didn't shoot.

You really think that he decided to do that? Like he woke up one morning and said " I could keep scoring all of these goals and make everybody happy, but to hell with it, I'm deciding to change everything just because"? Let's be real. He played his game to start the year and it didn't work. Vanek obviously has flaws in his game, but I still stand by my statement that he's the only guy on the roster that could've put up 50 points with his icetime and linemates.

There is nothing wrong with just bringing offense. Especially for a winger. But that's a double-edge sword that can't be ignored. Ever bit of extra production sky-rockets his salary. But every bit of less production brings warranted criticism.

That's just the role. Same as a striker in soccer.


Vanek and Pominville are the Olivier Giroud of the NHL.

I totally agree with that. But lets be honest, the amount of blame that Vanek and Pominville took last year was nowhere near proportionate with their actual production.

 

[Wild11MN]

Not much to be honest, but my point is that those two are not the only guys on the team that don't bring much if they aren't scoring. Add in the fact that they outscored everybody but Parise, and it is my opinion that they take much more heat than they deserve.

You really think that he decided to do that? Like he woke up one morning and said " I could keep scoring all of these goals and make everybody happy, but to hell with it, I'm deciding to change everything just because"? Let's be real. He played his game to start the year and it didn't work. Vanek obviously has flaws in his game, but I still stand by my statement that he's the only guy on the roster that could've put up 50 points with his icetime and linemates.

I totally agree with that. But lets be honest, the amount of blame that Vanek and Pominville took last year was nowhere near proportionate with their actual production.

I agree with basically all of what you're saying, but to the second paragraph, this was from Russo's recent article on Vanek. He did say he decided to be a playmaker more than a scorer last year apparently.

Vanek is a shooter. He didn’t play with the Wild’s best playmaking center, Mikael Granlund, so after feeling he was not getting the puck in shooting positions, he decided to be more of a creator than shooter.

“If I wanted points and goals, I would have signed with the Islanders and had a center like Johnny [Tavares] and a winger like Kyle [Okposo], but I came back here because I thought we had depth and one of the best defenses in the league,†Vanek said. “Minnesota is special to me and being a former Gopher and winning, I’d like to come back here and contribute to getting a Cup.

“But I knew the goals and points would be harder. They’re not going to be any easier this year just because I feel better. We don’t have maybe the strongest depth in the middle, so I’ll have to find a way again of probably making more plays than shooting and creating chances rather than getting chancesâ€

 

[thestonedkoala]

I agree with basically all of what you're saying, but to the second paragraph, this was from Russo's recent article on Vanek. He did say he decided to be a playmaker more than a scorer last year apparently.

He also pretty much says that Minnesota has trouble scoring and producing offense.

 

[J22*]

I agree with basically all of what you're saying, but to the second paragraph, this was from Russo's recent article on Vanek. He did say he decided to be a playmaker more than a scorer last year apparently.

"So, after feeling he was not getting the puck in shooting positions, he decided to be more of a creator than shooter"

That's basically the same as saying you decided to quit right after you got fired, isn't it?

I'm sure if he would've just kept playing the same way he always had and said something along the lines of "I've scored everywhere I've been, you guys need to figure out how to get me goals" people would've been very understanding of that approach.