Thomas D. Green Division Discussion Thread

[jarek]

The changed the rules to allow bodychecking after the 1972 Sunnit Series.

I don't know what to tell you. Those who saw him play said he was aggressive and physical.

 

[Namba 17]

The changed the rules to allow bodychecking after the 1972 Sunnit Series.

0_0
Bodychecking was allowed from the very beginning but in the defensive zone only. In 1969 IIHF allowed bodycheking everywhere.

 

[jarek]

0_0
Bodychecking was allowed from the very beginning but in the defensive zone only. In 1969 IIHF allowed bodycheking everywhere.

That makes sense. Otherwise sologubov being praised for his physical play makes no sense

 

[Theokritos]

The changed the rules to allow bodychecking after the 1972 Sunnit Series.

Not sure what you're referring to. Are you saying bodychecking wasn't allowed in Soviet hockey prior to 1972-1973? That would be plain wrong.

But as Namba 17 has rightly pointed out, it was restricted to the defensive zone prior to autumn 1969. And not just in the USSR, but everywhere in Europe and in international hockey.

 

[Dreakmur]

Not sure what you're referring to. Are you saying bodychecking wasn't allowed in Soviet hockey prior to 1972-1973? That would be plain wrong.

But as Namba 17 has rightly pointed out, it was restricted to the defensive zone prior to autumn 1969. And not just in the USSR, but everywhere in Europe and in international hockey.

Well, that could be correct, but I got my information form The Red Machine:

Maltsev, the powerball who was seldom heard from in the press made the trip. He said the Soviets were looking to have some of that North American "self-sacrifice and desire to win" rub off n them. With this in mind, the Russians had changed their domestic-league rules in 1972 to allow bodychecking anywhere on the ice.

Is that book wrong?

 

[Theokritos]

Well, that could be correct, but I got my information form The Red Machine:


Is that book wrong?

It's the very first time I hear this.

 

[Dreakmur]

It's the very first time I hear this.

It's quoted right from the book, and also included in my Maltsev biography this year.

 

[Theokritos]

I have to assume the book is wrong. How detrimental would it have been for the Soviet prospects of success to keep banning bodychecking in the offensive zone once it was allowed in international hockey? That makes no sense at all.

But even if we assume (for the sake of the argument) that the claim in the book was right: then the book still doesn't support what you said ("allowed no bodychecking"), it only suggests the Soviets kept banning bodychecking outside the defensive zone. That Sologubov could and did use the bodycheck in the defensive zone (both in the Soviet League and in international competitions) is a fact and not in dispute.

 

[Dreakmur]

I have to assume the book is wrong. How detrimental would it have been for the Soviet prospects of success to keep banning bodychecking in the offensive zone once it was allowed in international hockey? That makes no sense at all.

Simple - the Soviets continued to win the World Championships without needing to change. It wasn't until 1972 when they lost a few times - both the Summit Series and the World Championships to the Czechs.

But even if we assume (for the sake of the argument) that the claim in the book was right: then the book still doesn't support what you said ("allowed no bodychecking"), it only suggests the Soviets kept banning bodychecking outside the defensive zone. That Sologubov could and did use the bodycheck in the defensive zone (both in the Soviet League and in international competitions) is a fact and not in dispute.

Well, I said a "non-bodychecking" league, by which I meant not full bodychecking, though I understand the confusion.

I agree that he was the most physical defenseman in Russia, but where did he rank world wide?

 

[Theokritos]

Simple - the Soviets continued to win the World Championships without needing to change. It wasn't until 1972 when they lost a few times - both the Summit Series and the World Championships to the Czechs.

Nah, I don't believe it. There's a Russian publication from 1970 with pretty extensive coverage and discussion of the 1970 World Championship. One aspect discussed is the new rule allowing bodychecking all over the ice and how specific teams (e.g. Finland) made effective use of that rule by playing almost like the Canadians. There are two Russian coaches (Boginov and Puchkov) quoted as saying the new rule would serve as a catalyst for the improvement of individual skills. Nowhere is it mentioned that the Soviet League kept using the old rule. How could the new rules be advertised as "catalyst for the improvement of individual skills" if the Soviet players continued playing under the old rule for 90% of the time?

I'm quite certain M. Lawrence simply got the two dates (autumn 1969 and autumn 1972) mixed up.

 

[Dreakmur]

Nah, I don't believe it. There's a Russian publication from 1970 with pretty extensive coverage and discussion of the 1970 World Championship. One aspect discussed is the new rule allowing bodychecking all over the ice and how specific teams (e.g. Finland) made effective use of that rule by playing almost like the Canadians. There are two Russian coaches (Boginov and Puchkov) quoted as saying the new rule would serve as a catalyst for the improvement of individual skills. Nowhere is it mentioned that the Soviet League kept using the old rule. How could the new rules be advertised as "catalyst for the improvement of individual skills" if the Soviet players continued playing under the old rule for 90% of the time?

I'm quite certain M. Lawrence simply got the two dates (autumn 1969 and autumn 1972) mixed up.

Unless I'm reading that wrong, that article talks only about the IIHF rules.

 

[jarek]

I agree that he was the most physical defenseman in Russia, but where did he rank world wide?

That's up to you to decide. Several people very familiar with NHL hockey felt he would have been a star in the NHL. One described him as the Russian Doug Harvey, which probably alluded to his ability to do just about anything, including play physically. All of these people were very impressed with what they saw from him. I see little reason to doubt them.

 

[jarek]

Since we're on the topic of Sologubov, I want to re-post this just to make sure people see it. Sologubov's scoring resume:

USSR:

1950: 1st (233%)
1951: 2nd (83%)
1952: 1st (300%), 5th overall (41%)
1953: 1st (186%)
1954: 1st (171%)
1955: 1st (150%)
1956: 3rd (63%)
1957: 2nd (86%)
1958: 1st (160%)
1959: 1st (140%)
1960: 1st (125%)
1961: 2nd (75%)
1962: 1st (106%), 1st in assists (120%)
1963: 7th (67%), 1st in assists (117%)

WEC-A:

1955: 2nd (71%), 1st in assists (200%)
1957: 1st (171%), 8th overall (67%), 1st in assists (150%)

Olympics:

1960: 1st (129%), 1st in assists (133%)

Sologubov was far and away one of the best players in his league most/all of his career, so take that for what it's worth. However, his domination is very apparent, and why he is featured on my PP unit. I think he's more than capable of handling that role.

I'll post a more detailed analysis for Krutov tomorrow.

 

[Dreakmur]

That's up to you to decide. Several people very familiar with NHL hockey felt he would have been a star in the NHL. One described him as the Russian Doug Harvey, which probably alluded to his ability to do just about anything, including play physically. All of these people were very impressed with what they saw from him. I see little reason to doubt them.

Same person that called Bobrov the Russian Maurice Richard?

 

[jarek]

Same person that called Bobrov the Russian Maurice Richard?

Red Berenson describing European greats, from his experience playing in the 1959 WC, he believed could play in the NHL
IIHF News Release - April 2004 said:
“I saw players who could have played in the NHL already at that time”, says “Red”. “For some reason I remember the Swedes the best. They had a great centre in Nisse Nilsson and two steady defensemen, (Lasse) Bjorn and (Roland) Stoltz. I also remember the great Soviet defenseman (Nikolai) Sologubov. He was the Russian Doug Harvey"

Came from a credible NHL source - a player.

 

[jarek]

Krutov's numbers. I'm separating goals and assists because I want to get a better feel as to his playmaking abilities. Percentages are Vs1, Vs2 if he was 1st:

Goals: 1st (1984) (103%), 1st (1986) (103%), 1st (1987) (108%), 3rd (1980) (88%), 3rd (1982) (86%), 3rd (1983) (84%), 3rd (1989) (95%), 4th (1985) (74%)
Assists: 2nd (1985), (77%), 3rd (1989) (64%), 4th (1982) (67%), 5th (1987) (75%), 9th (1983) (68%)
Points: 2nd (1984) (78%), 2nd (1985) (82%), 2nd (1987) (94%), 2nd (1989) (76%), 3rd (1982) (88%), 3rd (1986) (77%), 4th (1983) (84%)

Percentages:

Goals: 108, 103, 103, 95, 88, 86, 84, 74
Assists: 77, 75, 68, 67, 64
Points: 94, 88, 84, 82, 78, 77, 76

WJC U20 1980 (Including this due to some good players showing up this tournament)

Goals: 1st (117%)
Assists: 1st (133%)
Points: 1st (122%)

WEC-A

Goals: 1st (1987) (183%), 3rd (1983) (89%), 3rd (1986) (88%), 5th (1981) (67%)
Assists: 3rd (1986) (71%), 5th (1983) (70%), 9th (1985) (71%)
Points: 1st (1987) (117%), 2nd (1983) (83%), 2nd (1986) (94%)

Percentages:

Goals: 183, 89, 88, 67
Assists: 71, 71, 70
Points: 117, 94, 83

Olympics

Goals: 2nd (1988) (86%), 6th (1980) (75%)
Assists: 1st (1988) (113%)
Points: 1st (1988) (115%), 5th (1980) (73%)

Percentages:

Goals: 86, 75
Assists: 113
Points: 115, 73

Canada Cup

Goals: 2nd (1988) (64%), 4th (1982) (50%)
Assists: 3rd (1988) (39%)*, 8th (1985) (63%)
Points: 4th (1988) (67%), 8th (1982) (75%), 8th (1985) (75%)

*Gretzky destroyed everyone with 18 assists to 2nd place's 8.

Percentages:

Goals: 64, 50
Assists: 63, 39
Points: 75, 75, 67

---

All in all we have a guy who was obviously a very good goal scorer who contributed some decent playmaking as well over his career. His overall offense looks pretty strong, though it would be nice to see how it compares to someone like Maltsev for example.

 

[jarek]

The matchup vs. Stockholm:

Chernyshev: Arthur, that team's top unit will be very difficult to handle. We should consider a lineup change.
Ross: Are you kidding me? Since when do you make the decisions here?
Chernyshev: I'm not here to step on your toes. I know my role. To help the team be better prepared to win.
Ross: *grumble* So what's on your mind?
Chernyshev: We need to match muscle with muscle. Let's put Frank on the line with Volodya and Robert.
Ross: No f***ing way! Nighbor is too valuable for that.
Chernyshev: Not that Frank! Fredrickson. The feistier one.
Ross: How then will the 3rd line operate?
Chernyshev: Vaclav has proven against our national team time and again his value as a brilliant player. He will adjust to Mickey very well. I expect he'll be pleased to be given more opportunity on the attack.
Ross: Fine. We'll give it a shot.

Stockholm's physicality is very heavily skewed towards their top line, which indeed is very nasty. When Hooley Smith is the 3rd best physical player on his line, you know you've got some kind of muscle.

I believe a line of Krutov - Fredrickson - Nevin is Kingsman's best chance at containing this line. I think Fredrickson matches up decently against Lalonde, especially in the neutral zone, where his speed will cause Lalonde fits. In fact, unless I'm missing something, Stockholm's first line isn't particularly fast, and neither is their 1st D pair, so if they turn the puck over, Krutov - Fredrickson should get a healthy amount of 2 on 1s or breakaways, and both are skilled enough to make a team pay for mistakes on a consistent basis. Along the boards, we've got Langway and Pilote to help handle Stockholm's ruffians, and in really dire circumstances where Pilote is getting overmatched, Green, Pospisil or Sologubov could move up with Langway to help out. And of course, should the defense falter, Ken Dryden is an excellent last line of defense.

Krutov - Fredrickson - Nevin
Langway - Pilote/Green/Pospisil
Dryden

That's the likely unit against Stockholm's top line. I want to repeat that everything Stockholm has to do will be made harder by the fact they have to fire pucks on Dryden. Kingsman will have an easier time against Esposito, and Esposito may be busy with the speed Krutov - Fredrickson have.

For the rest of the matchups, I think I foresee the Nighbor line against the Ratelle line, and then any matchup among the bottom units works for me. The key is that Stockholm's offense is very heavily skewed towards their top-6, whereas Kingsman features a more balanced attack, with at least 3 credible scoring lines, and a 4th line that will make things difficult in the offensive zone. And once again, ALL of Kingsman's matchups are made relatively easier by having to shoot pucks at Esposito instead of Dryden.

One thing I think really works in favour of Kingsman here, and in the context of a 24 team draft, is almost suicide, is the presence of Yuri Liapkin on Stockholm's 3rd pair. He was by no means a bad player of course, but I think if we rated defensemen defensively, he'd be solidly among the bottom 1/5th or so. Where he'd place in that group, I'm not sure, but the point is that we will seek to exploit Liapkin's presence on the ice as much as possible. I foresee quite a few cases where a Liapkin gaffe leads to goals among the bottom units. Kingsman has no such weakness, as no defensive pair features a player who wasn't good in his own zone. This was really important to me given the draft size.

I am also perplexed by the idea of Kurri on the point on the PP. Did he do that in real life?

 

[Namba 17]

Krutov's numbers. I'm separating goals and assists because I want to get a better feel as to his playmaking abilities. Percentages are Vs1, Vs2 if he was 1st:

Goals: 1st (1984) (103%), 1st (1986) (103%), 1st (1987) (108%), 3rd (1980) (88%), 3rd (1982) (86%), 3rd (1983) (84%), 3rd (1989) (95%), 4th (1985) (74%)
Assists: 2nd (1985), (77%), 3rd (1989) (64%), 4th (1982) (67%), 5th (1987) (75%), 9th (1983) (68%)
Points: 2nd (1984) (78%), 2nd (1985) (82%), 2nd (1987) (94%), 2nd (1989) (76%), 3rd (1982) (88%), 3rd (1986) (77%), 4th (1983) (84%)

Percentages:

Goals: 108, 103, 103, 95, 88, 86, 84, 74
Assists: 77, 75, 68, 67, 64
Points: 94, 88, 84, 82, 78, 77, 76

WJC U20 1980 (Including this due to some good players showing up this tournament)

Goals: 1st (117%)
Assists: 1st (133%)
Points: 1st (122%)

WEC-A

Goals: 1st (1987) (183%), 3rd (1983) (89%), 3rd (1986) (88%), 5th (1981) (67%)
Assists: 3rd (1986) (71%), 5th (1983) (70%), 9th (1985) (71%)
Points: 1st (1987) (117%), 2nd (1983) (83%), 2nd (1986) (94%)

Percentages:

Goals: 183, 89, 88, 67
Assists: 71, 71, 70
Points: 117, 94, 83

Olympics

Goals: 2nd (1988) (86%), 6th (1980) (75%)
Assists: 1st (1988) (113%)
Points: 1st (1988) (115%), 5th (1980) (73%)

Percentages:

Goals: 86, 75
Assists: 113
Points: 115, 73

Canada Cup

Goals: 2nd (1988) (64%), 4th (1982) (50%)
Assists: 3rd (1988) (39%)*, 8th (1985) (63%)
Points: 4th (1988) (67%), 8th (1982) (75%), 8th (1985) (75%)

*Gretzky destroyed everyone with 18 assists to 2nd place's 8.

Percentages:

Goals: 64, 50
Assists: 63, 39
Points: 75, 75, 67

---

All in all we have a guy who was obviously a very good goal scorer who contributed some decent playmaking as well over his career. His overall offense looks pretty strong, though it would be nice to see how it compares to someone like Maltsev for example.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/soviet-players-points-goals-mvp-top-finishes.2466845/

 

[VMBM]

Canada Cup

Goals: 2nd (1988) (64%), 4th (1982) (50%)
Assists: 3rd (1988) (39%)*, 8th (1985) (63%)
Points: 4th (1988) (67%), 8th (1982) (75%), 8th (1985) (75%)

*Gretzky destroyed everyone with 18 assists to 2nd place's 8.

Canada Cup 1982, 1985 and 1988?

So that's 1981, 1984 and 1987, right? Sorry if I'm being Mr. Obvious.

 

[jarek]

@Dreakmur

So what other concerns do you have about my team in this division? I already answered your previous questions.

 

[Dreakmur]

@Dreakmur

So what other concerns do you have about my team in this division? I already answered your previous questions.

Nope, just the ones I raised.

 

[jarek]

Nope, just the ones I raised.

I am mainly asking because you mentioned in the draft thread that you didn't think my team stacked up well against my division. Why do you think that?

 

[Dreakmur]

I am mainly asking because you mentioned in the draft thread that you didn't think my team stacked up well against my division. Why do you think that?

As I said before, Stockholm will beat the shit out of you, and you won't scare them off with your PP.

 

[jarek]

As I said before, Stockholm will beat the **** out of you, and you won't scare them off with your PP.

With their one line and one defense pair that has any significant amount of toughness? I think they're going to struggle just to keep that unit on the ice with all the penalties they'll take.

I have provided plenty to refute this claim that my team is going to be beaten to a pulp by them. Beyond that, I think you are underrating the ability of my PP, as well as underrating the fact that Stockholm has a weak PK and weak goalie. And finally, winning hockey games requires far more than rough house tactics. They actually have to score, which I think they'll be hard pressed to do if they're more focused on trying to beat people up.

It appears toughness continues to get overrated around here.

 

[Dreakmur]

In regular season play, Tony Esposito is not a weak goalie. He’s probably pretty close to Dryden actually.

I agree his PK is weak, but I don’t think your PP is equipped to exploit that.

It’s not just toughness, I just think he has a really good team. Physical play will play a role, especially against soft teams, but it’s just a good overall team.