Thomas D. Green Division Discussion Thread

[jarek]

NOTE: Please read the following prior to discussion.

The discussion in this thread is related to the division specified in the title only. All other potential matchups that could occur league wide are irrelevant as it pertains to the results of voting in this division. As such, compare only the 3 teams in this division to each other when voting.

@jarek @Iceman @papershoes @Hawkey Town 18

Please post your rosters as you'd like us to view them as it pertains to voting. Mods, can you guys please make sure the 3 roster posts are at the top of the thread and all in-between posts are deleted?

Discussion may begin once all rosters are posted.

Click to read more...

 

[jarek]

Kingsman Secret Agents

General Managers: jarek and peskypenguin4

Head Coach: Art Ross
Assistant Coach: Arkady Chernyshev

Captain: Rod Langway
Assistant Captains: František Pospíšil, Bob Nevin

Cy Denneny - Frank Nighbor - Patrick Kane
Vladimir Krutov - Mickey MacKay - Bob Nevin
Sergei Kapustin - Frank Fredrickson - Václav Nedomanský
Vic Hadfield - Don McKenney - Jerry Toppazzini

Rod Langway - Pierre Pilote
František Pospíšil - Doug Mohns
Nikolai Sologubov - Ted Green

Ken Dryden
Alec Connell

PP1: Denneny - Nedomanský - Kane - Mohns - Pilote
PP2: Krutov - Fredrickson - MacKay - Pospíšil - Sologubov

PP extras: Nighbor, Kapustin, McKenney

PK1: Nighbor - Nevin - Langway - Pospíšil
PK2: MacKay - Toppazzini - Pilote - Green

PK extras: Krutov, Fredrickson, McKenney, Mohns, Sologubov

Extra Skaters: Pete Mahovlich, C/LW, Randy Carlyle, D, Konstantin Loktev, RW

An alternative PP setup for those who dislike Nedomansky:

PP1: Denneny - Fredrickson- Kane - MacKay - Pilote
PP2: Krutov - Nedomanský - Kapustin - Pospíšil - Sologubov
​

Estimated Minutes Per Game, Forwards

Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
Frank Nighbor	16	0	4	20
Patrick Kane	14	5	0	19
Cy Denneny	12	5	0	17
Vladimir Krutov	14	2	0	16
Bob Nevin	12	0	4	16
Vaclav Nedomansky	12	4	0	16
Frank Fredrickson	12	3	0	15
Mickey MacKay	10	2	3	15
Sergei Kapustin	12	0	0	12
Jerry Toppazzini	8	0	3	11
Vic Hadfield	8	0	0	8
Don McKenney	8	0	0	8
	138	21	14

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Denneny will see limited ES minutes in defensive zone draws, in favour of Krutov

Estimated Minutes Per Game, Defensemen

Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
Pierre Pilote	16	5	2	23
František Pospíšil	15	3	4	22
Rod Langway	16	0	5	21
Doug Mohns	15	4	0	18
Ted Green	15	0	3	18
Nikolai Sologubov	15	2	0	17
	92	14	14

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Iceman]

Coach: Fred Shero

Ted Lindsay (A) - Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde (A) - Reginald "Hooley" Smith
Keith Tkachuk - Jean Ratelle - Jari Kurri
Dean Prentice - Ralph Backstrom - Dirk Graham
Adam Graves - Mike Richards - Shane Doan

Denis Potvin (C) - Shea Weber
Mike Grant - Jack Crawford
Kevin Lowe - Yuri Lyapkin

Tony Esposito
Tom Barrasso


Spares: Ken Morrow, D - Gaye Stewart, LW - Doug Weight, C - Blake Wheeler, RW


PP1: Keith Tkachuk - Ted Lindsay - Newsy Lalonde - Denis Potvin - Shea Weber
PP2: Shane Doan - Jean Ratelle - Hooley Smith - Jari Kurri - Yuri Liapkin

PK1: Mike Richards - Dirk Graham - Denis Potvin - Jack Crawford
PK2: Dean Prentice - Ralph Backstrom - Kevin Lowe - Shea Weber


​

Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
Ted Lindsay	15	5	0	19
Newsy Lalonde	15	5	0	19
Hooley Smith	15	3	0	17
Keith Tkachuk	12	4	0	16
Jean Ratelle	13	2	0	15
Jari Kurri	13	13	0	16
Dean Prentice	11	0	3	14
Ralph Backstrom	10	0	3	13
Dirk Graham	10	0	4	14
Adam Graves	8	0	0	8
Mike Richards	8	0	4	12
Shane Doan	8	2	0	10
Totals	138	24	14	176

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
Denis Potvin	18	5	4	27
Shea Weber	16	4	2	22
Mike Grant	17	0	0	17
Jack Crawford	17	0	4	21
Kevin Lowe	13	0	3	16
Yuri Liapkin	11	2	0	13
Totals	92	11	14	117

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Dreakmur]

Stockholm is the exact kind of team that makes me want to have a deadly power play. You want to play rough, we will destroy you with the man advantage. Especially with what I see as a weakness on the penalty kill.

Kenora has that kind of intimidating power play.
Kingsmen do not.

Question for @Iceman , how do you intend to deal with Kenora's power play? If you play rough, which, to me, is one of your team's biggest strengths, you could end up in a lot of trouble on the penalty kill.

Question for @jarek , how do you intend to deal with Stockholm's physicality? I see a few of your top guys who I would target for abuse.

 

[Iceman]

Question for @Iceman , how do you intend to deal with Kenora's power play? If you play rough, which, to me, is one of your team's biggest strengths, you could end up in a lot of trouble on the penalty kill.

Who are the thugs on my team if you think about it? Lindsay and Tkachuk? Graves PIMs aren't that bad given the era but he could get suspended I guess.

None of these players are on my PK, not even Graves. As a self assassination-ish thing, Weber as a PKer in the ATD is not ideal but could be passable as the worst killer on my 2nd PK.

I don't think my 1st PK is not that bad tbh, statistically speaking. Both Richards and Graham are known threats on the PK and both Potvin and Crawford are rocks.

 

[Dreakmur]

Your whole first line and top defense pair are made up entirely of guys who played physically aggressive games.

Your PK forwards are quite weak compared to a lot of other teams.

 

[papershoes]

Kenora THISTLES
1907 Stanley Cup Champions

Home Rink: Thistle Rink (1920), Kenora, Ontario
GM: papershoes & Hawkey Town 18
Coach: Cecil Hart
Captain: Steve Yzerman
Alternates: Toe Blake, Butch Bouchard, Daniel Alfredsson



#6 Hector "Toe" Blake (A) - #19 Steve Yzerman (C) - #5 Bernie "Boom Boom" Geoffrion
#14 Woody Dumart - #71 Evgeni Malkin - #11 Daniel Alfredsson (A)
#9 Clark Gillies - #8 Igor Larionov - #10 Tony Amonte
Dave Andreychuk - #10 Edgar Laprade - #6 Floyd Curry
extras: Neal Broten, Tommy Smith, #44 Stephane Richer

#4 Leonard "Red" Kelly - #3 Emile "Butch" Bouchard (A)
#3 Vladimir Lutchenko - #2 Jimmy Thomson
#20 Jimmy Watson - #76 PK Subban
extras: #7 Gennady Tsygankov

#1 Walter "Turk" Broda
#1 Roberto Luongo

Powerplay:
PP1: Dave Andreychuk - Steve Yzerman - Evgeni Malkin - Red Kelly - Bernie Geoffrion
PP2: Toe Blake - Igor Larionov - Daniel Alfredsson - PK Subban - Vladimir Lutchenko

Penalty Kill:
PK1: Edgar Laprade - Floyd Curry - Vladimir Lutchenko/Red Kelly - Butch Bouchard
PK2: Toe Blake - Steve Yzerman - Red Kelly/Jimmy Watson - Jimmy Thomson
PK3: Igor Larionov - Daniel Alfredsson
​

Forwards
Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
T. Blake	14	2	2	18
S. Yzerman	14	4	2	20
B. Geoffrion	14	4		18
W. Dumart	16.5			16.5
E. Malkin	13	5		18
D. Alfredsson	13	3	1	17
C. Gillies	12			12
I. Larionov	12	2	1	15
T. Amonte	12			12
D. Andreychuk	3.5	5		8.5
E. Laprade	7		4	11
F. Curry	7		4	11
TOTAL	138	25	14	177

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Defense
Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
R. Kelly	19	5	2	26
B. Bouchard	17		4	21
V. Lutchenko	14	2	3	19
J. Thomson	17		3	20
J. Watson	13		2	15
P.K. Subban	12	3		15
TOTAL	92	10	14	116

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

​

 

[jarek]

Stockholm is the exact kind of team that makes me want to have a deadly power play. You want to play rough, we will destroy you with the man advantage. Especially with what I see as a weakness on the penalty kill.

Kenora has that kind of intimidating power play.
Kingsmen do not.

Question for @Iceman , how do you intend to deal with Kenora's power play? If you play rough, which, to me, is one of your team's biggest strengths, you could end up in a lot of trouble on the penalty kill.

Question for @jarek , how do you intend to deal with Stockholm's physicality? I see a few of your top guys who I would target for abuse.

Who are the thugs on my team if you think about it? Lindsay and Tkachuk? Graves PIMs aren't that bad given the era but he could get suspended I guess.

None of these players are on my PK, not even Graves. As a self assassination-ish thing, Weber as a PKer in the ATD is not ideal but could be passable as the worst killer on my 2nd PK.

I don't think my 1st PK is not that bad tbh, statistically speaking. Both Richards and Graham are known threats on the PK and both Potvin and Crawford are rocks.

Your whole first line and top defense pair are made up entirely of guys who played physically aggressive games.

Your PK forwards are quite weak compared to a lot of other teams.

Can we move these posts under the Kenora post please? And then delete mine?

@ResilientBeast @Johnny Engine

 

[Iceman]

Your whole first line and top defense pair are made up entirely of guys who played physically aggressive games.

Your PK forwards are quite weak compared to a lot of other teams.

Does that always equal sitting in the box? and does my PK forward play against other team's PK forwards?

 

[jarek]

One burning question I'm sure people are asking is: what the heck is Vaclav Nedomansky doing on a 1st PP unit here? In short, he was the 2nd most dominant goal scorer in Czech league history. Here's how he did (% value is Vs1, Vs2 if > 100%):

Goals: 1st (1967) (103%), 1st (1972) (113%), 1st (1974) (131%), 2nd (1966) (98%), 2nd (1968) (87%), 2nd (1971) (97%), 4th (1969) (78%), 5th (1970) (81%)

Overall: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th
Percentages: 131, 112, 103, 98, 97, 87, 81, 78

The only other Czech great who could claim to surpass this level of goal scoring dominance was Milan Novy, who had the following goal scoring finishes: 1st (1975) (128%), 1st (1976) (123%), 1st (1977) (123%), 2nd (1973), 2nd (1974) (76%), 2nd (1978), 2nd (1979) (85%), 2nd (1982) (83%), 3rd (1980) (84%), 3rd (1981) (80%)

The difference between these two players is that Nedomansky went on to have one of the most successful careers of a player coming over to North America from Czechoslovakia (and quite possibly of all the Iron Curtain players coming over), while Novy had one respectable but unspectacular season. In fact, Nedomansky's best year came before he went to North America so who knows what else he could have accomplished in the Czech league?

Additionally, Nedomansky did quite well in international tournament goal scoring:

WEC-A: 1st (1974), 2nd (1969) (90%), 2nd (1970) (67%), 3rd (1971) (73%), 5th (1972) (75%)
Olympics: 2nd (1972) (89%)

The reason why I separate points and goals in this specific case is because of Nedomansky's role on my PP unit. In short, I expect him to adjust his PP game the same way he did when he went to North America and essentially play like Phil Esposito, using his body to take up space in the slot, cause havoc, tip in pucks and get to rebounds quickly using his speed.

But as soon as he settled down in Motor Town, he came back and showed flashes of his brilliance. Although clearly past his prime he scored 38 and 35 goals the following two seasons (78-79 and 79-80). His 73 and 74 pts was a really good result considering the fact that he was 35-36 years old playing for one of the worst teams in the league. Although not as fast as he used to be he still had that deadly wristshot as well as great touch around the net. As his speed deteriorated he became more and more of a power forward who thrived in the slot. He was hard to move away from the slot in the same fashion as Phil Esposito was and became something of a powerplay specialist.-1972summitseries.com

Essentially, how people view my 1st PP unit is going to depend on how Nedomansky's success is viewed here. I don't think I need to speak for Denneny, Kane and Pilote, who would make the 1st unit on just about any other team. Mohns being on the 1st unit is mostly due to how the ice time broke down - I expect Pospisil to see some time on the 1st unit as well. He did quite well in scoring too, by the way:

Pospisil Offense

Offensive Accomplishments
Czech League
Points: 5th (1968), 5th (1971), 5th (1972), 9th (1970)

Percentages (VS1): 79.2 (1968), 79.2 (1971), 73.1 (1970), 71.4 (1972)

Offensive Accomplishments Among Defensemen
Czech League
Points: 1st (1968), 1st (1971), 1st (1972), 1st (1973), 1st (1974), 1st (1975), 2nd (1970), 2nd (1977)

Percentages (VS1): 100 (1968), 100 (1971)*, 100 (1972), 100 (1973), 100 (1974), 100 (1975), 86.4 (1970), 83.4 (1977)
*144.8% of 2nd place Suchy

World Championships
1968: 4th (VS1: 57.1%)
1970: 2nd (VS1: 40%)
1971: 4th (VS1: 57.1%)
1972: 1st
1973: 3rd (VS1: 64.3%)
1976: 6th (VS1: 57.1%)
1977: 2nd (VS1: 85.7%)

Olympics
1972: 2nd (VS1: 83.3%)
1976: 1st (should probably not be considered because he was caught using banned substances)

 

[Dreakmur]

Does that always equal sitting in the box? and does my PK forward play against other team's PK forwards?

No, some guys can play tough and clean. All of the guys I mentioned have high penalty minute totals, so they didn’t do that.

Your PK forwards don’t play against other PK forwards, but if they are weak compared to others, they’ll do a worse job. IMO the Richards and Graham pair is one of the weakest top units in the draft.

 

[jarek]

Stockholm is the exact kind of team that makes me want to have a deadly power play. You want to play rough, we will destroy you with the man advantage. Especially with what I see as a weakness on the penalty kill.

Kenora has that kind of intimidating power play.
Kingsmen do not.

Question for @Iceman , how do you intend to deal with Kenora's power play? If you play rough, which, to me, is one of your team's biggest strengths, you could end up in a lot of trouble on the penalty kill.

Question for @jarek , how do you intend to deal with Stockholm's physicality? I see a few of your top guys who I would target for abuse.

I have a number of players who will act as deterrents for the "rough stuff". Cy Denneny, Sergei Kapustin, Vic Hadfield, Nikolai Sologubov, Ted Green.

Who do you expect will be targeted?

Nighbor had the success that he had despite playing through exactly the kind of physical abuse you speak of:

Nighbor irritates opposing players, not only in the skill in which he pops in goals, but in his persistency in trailing the puck, and in his almost uncanny efficiency in snagging it off the other fellow's stick. In doing this he nearly always makes his victim look like what is termed in sporting parlance a "sucker," and very frequently his opponents seek to make up their lack of hockey skill by rough-house.

Frank Nighbor at center was a tower of strength to the Ottawas, both offensively and defensively. He was given rather a rough ride by heavy body checks, but returned bumps for bumps and all together played one of his very best games. In the second period, X attempted to cross-check Ottawa's famous center-ice player, but the latter beat the Canadien to a punch, although Ottawa supporters thought both should have gone off, if a penalty was deserved.

Shore and Hitchman, the Bruins' defense duo, gave Frank Nighbor, Ottawa's peerless center, a hard ride, which, however, spurred him on to greater efforts in tying the Bostonian forward line in knots.

Frank Nighbor appeared at centre for the Ottawas and was the pick of the line. Nighbor was given a fierce grueling by the Toronto team and in the first period there was just one continual procession of players to the penalty bench for their methods of checking Nighbor.

President Robinson also assured me that he was inquiring into the attack on Frank Nighbor," said Mr. Rosenthal. "He did not witness the match and his referee failed to see the foul, but he is taking statements from spectators and minor officials and has promised that there will not be a repetition."

Frank Nighbor, the flashy Ottawa center, who had his face slashed in last night's game. Nighbor was again the object of attack by Canadien players.

He even fought back from time to time:

Frank Nighbor continued his aggressive tactics and made 3 trips to the penalty pen during the game, something very unusual for this famous player, but he also served notice that he was through "taking it" without giving a receipt for every clout or bump.

MacKay is well insulated between Kapustin and Nevin, both players who were quite physical.

McKenney is also well insulated between Hadfield and Toppazzini.

I think the toughness of my team can get quite underrated. It doesn't look as spectacular as Stockholm's because of having Lindsay, Lalonde, Potvin and Weber, but if you look up and down the lineup, I don't think any line or defense pairing is going to get consistently outmuscled.

Does that always equal sitting in the box? and does my PK forward play against other team's PK forwards?

I honestly believe your 1st line is going to struggle to stay together because Lalonde and Lindsay are going to be in the box fairly often. With the way you constructed your team, I would have wanted better PK'ers than Prentice and Backstrom. Potvin is also concerning as your best PK defenseman because he too will spend some time in the box.

 

[jarek]

I do have a concern with both other teams' 3rd pairs. Lyapkin, and to a lesser extent Subban, may consistently get exposed if they are on the ice too much against the lower units of my team. The Fredrickson line especially should be able to take advantage of shifts against those pairs.

 

[jarek]

A word about PK units and especially goaltending:

I believe my team will do a very, very good job of neutralizing the PPs of both Kenora and Stockholm, both teams featuring very dangerous 1st PP units. The important PK'ers on my team did a good job in real life of staying out of the box, and I expect that to continue here. Even if one of them is in the box, which will happen from time to time, I have very capable extras on the forward line in Krutov and Fredrickson to pitch in, while Mohns and Sologubov can help out in a pinch.

As far as the quality of these units, I believe my PK units to be the best in this series. The closest comparison would be between my top unit and the top unit of Kenora. On top of that, Kingsman has the single biggest advantage in PK units in this entire series, and that is that Ken Dryden is a much better goaltender than both Tony Esposito and Turk Broda. Which leads me to my next point..

If the comparison of these teams is close, any such comparison should be swayed considerably by the fact that Kenora and Stockholm will be shooting on Ken Dryden, while Kingsman will be shooting on Broda and Esposito. Even if you believe my PP unit to be the weakest here, the difference should be made up substantially by the above.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Forwards
Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
T. Blake	14	2	2	18
S. Yzerman	14	4	2	20
B. Geoffrion	14	4		18
W. Dumart	16.5			16.5
E. Malkin	13	5		18
D. Alfredsson	13	3	1	17
C. Gillies	12			12
I. Larionov	12	2	1	15
T. Amonte	12			12
D. Andreychuk	3.5	5		8.5
E. Laprade	7		4	11
F. Curry	7		4	11
TOTAL	138	25	14	177

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Defense
Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
R. Kelly	19	5	2	26
B. Bouchard	17		4	21
V. Lutchenko	14	2	3	19
J. Thomson	17		3	20
J. Watson	13		2	15
P.K. Subban	12	3		15
TOTAL	92	10	14	116

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Notes for Kenora's minutes chart:

- Dumart is taking half of Andreychuk's shifts at ES.
- Kelly and Watson will take some ES shifts for Lutchenko

 

[Iceman]

Is it feasible to do some kind of vsx comparison with half the forwards who played/peaked in pre-NHL era or most importantly in the Soviet league?

 

[jarek]

Is it feasible to do some kind of vsx comparison with half the forwards who played/peaked in pre-NHL era or most importantly in the Soviet league?

I posted about Nedomansky above. I can certainly do Krutov as well

 

[Iceman]

I posted about Nedomansky above. I can certainly do Krutov as well

Cheers, would be cool to see how the lines compares. We all know there is a ton of players here with intangible contributions other than offense so it's not the world of importance but would be statistical satisfaction for the eyes I guess, if nothing else, lol.

 

[Dreakmur]

I have a number of players who will act as deterrents for the "rough stuff". Cy Denneny, Sergei Kapustin, Vic Hadfield, Nikolai Sologubov, Ted Green.

Denneny, Hadfield, and Green, yes. Kapustin and Sologubov, no.

Who do you expect will be targeted?

Nighbor, Kane, MacKay, McKenney

MacKay is well insulated between Kapustin and Nevin, both players who were quite physical.

Neither of those guys could protect another player.

I think the toughness of my team can get quite underrated. It doesn't look as spectacular as Stockholm's because of having Lindsay, Lalonde, Potvin and Weber, but if you look up and down the lineup, I don't think any line or defense pairing is going to get consistently outmuscled.

I just think you're just over-rating what you have.

 

[jarek]

Denneny, Hadfield, and Green, yes. Kapustin and Sologubov, no.



Nighbor, Kane, MacKay, McKenney



Neither of those guys could protect another player.



I just think you're just over-rating what you have.

Nighbor can handle himself first of all, as I posted above.

Second, Sologubov was known for skirting the line between legal and illegal with his physical play. The only reason anyone would think that Sologubov's physicality wouldn't be a big factor here is if you don't take anything he did seriously.

And in addition to being an offensive defender before time, Sologubov was also a very aggressive defender, also very foreign thing to the kind of hockey that the Russian set up at that time.

“Gone are the stars of previous world and Olympic hockey tournaments including big Nikolai (Solly) Sologubov, the first Russian who learned the art of the crunching bodycheck and who rated as National Hockey League defence timber.” - The Brandon Sun, October 18, 1962

Milt Dunnell said Krylov and Sologubov could become stars on any NHL club.
"It might take a little time for them themselves to adapt to the Canadian game. But they would make the grade without much difficulty. Both play head-up hockey and can trade bodychecks with anyone."

But they are best on defense, and their key man is Goalie Nikolai Puchkov, a master judge of angles and distance. Helping Puchkov keep the puck clear of the net are two quick and aggressive defensemen, Genrikh Sidorenkov and Nikolai Sologubov.

"I almost never sent him off. He respected everyone: teammates, opponents, referees and spectators. Cheerful, never forlorn. But within the rules, he met opponents in a way that was unpleasant for them. He always played on the edge of a foul."

Krutov and Nevin both played an aggressive, physical brand of hockey. The reason I think that'll insulate MacKay is because their physical play will draw attention of defenders to them, freeing up space for MacKay. They won't necessarily fight anyone to protect MacKay, but they will play hard to make sure he has the ability to operate.

Beyond that, what else could you possibly have wanted to see from my team to "protect" these players? I have 3 guys who will "answer" any abuse, and a coach who encourages the rough stuff at times.

If you believe these players would be targeted by the likes of Lalonde et al., then there's nothing more I could have really done to prevent that. Those types of players are going to go after the other team's star players regardless of whatever deterrent exists. To do more than I did would have been redundant.

 

[Dreakmur]

Second, Sologubov was known for skirting the line between legal and illegal with his physical play. The only reason anyone would think that Sologubov's physicality wouldn't be a big factor here is if you don't take anything he did seriously.

The Soviet league didn't even allow bodychecking during Sologubov's career, did it?

 

[jarek]

The Soviet league didn't even allow bodychecking during Sologubov's career, did it?

It doesn't seem that way. Clearly the passages I provided demonstrate that he was among the most physical blueliners of his league, if not the most physical.

 

[Dreakmur]

It doesn't seem that way. Clearly the passages I provided demonstrate that he was among the most physical blueliners of his league, if not the most physical.

But the most physical player in a non-bodychecking league isn't that impressive, right?

 

[jarek]

But the most physical player in a non-bodychecking league isn't that impressive, right?

I don't know. It isn't as impressive as the most.physical player in a violent league. I encourage you to read the passages I provided. It suggests that body checking wasn't strictly banned.. it simply wasn't how the game was typically played. Sologubov seemed to pioneer physical hockey in russia

 

[Dreakmur]

I don't know. It isn't as impressive as the most.physical player in a violent league. I encourage you to read the passages I provided. It suggests that body checking wasn't strictly banned.. it simply wasn't how the game was typically played. Sologubov seemed to pioneer physical hockey in russia

The changed the rules to allow bodychecking after the 1972 Sunnit Series.