Post-Game Talk: They should call it VanHoover. Get it? Pens 5 - Canucks 4

[ColePens]

So the idea here RRP is once again an advocate of this crazy up/down hockey that leaves the Pens with ZERO structure defensively. Yeah.. not one problem at all over the last couple years. I just don't get how people watch this stuff time and time again but love it. Then they sit there and wonder why the same results inevitably happen.

But yes.. sit there w/ some still images and say we should be good on a 1 on 1. I do not get it.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I'd probably just try anything to stabilize Orpik til Martin gets back. Engo didn't work. Despres didn't, so
I'd run:

Scuderi-Letang
Orpik-Bortuzzo
Maata/Despres-Niskanen

Get guys playing in their natural positions. If Maata stinks for a game. Plug in Despres. Despres is probably being sent down to WB/S once Martin comes off IR anyway.

But, of course, i wouldn't be surprised if DB goes back to Orpik-Engo and tries to get better results than the Jets game.

 

[MrBurghundy]

You can't stabilize something that sucks.

 

[IcedCapp]

I have a question about the Letang pinch:

I'm assigning blame to Despres, but here's my question - Despres is the LHS. He's playing the Left hand side with Letang. The "pinch" happens on the right side.

Where is Despres supposed to be positioned? He seemed to be in the middle of the ice, his only issue was ... depth?

And to me, it looked like he got caught off guard and didn't know whether to turn his hips and chase or try to cut off the pass, and sort of got caught thinking?

Is this accurate?

If so, what is Despres responsibility there?

 

[Speaking Moistly]

You can't stabilize something that sucks.

They could insulate him but the only guy that seems capable of doing that is injured. We should insulate veteran leadership by sitting him, solution found. Or trading him, that's a type of insulation.

Scuderi - Letang
Despres - Niskanen
Maatta - Bortuzzo

 

[MrBurghundy]

The defense instantly looks better.

 

[WayneSid9987]

We all know thats^ not gonna happen.

I guess they could try:

Orpik-Scuderi
Maata/Despres-Letang
Maata/Despres-Niskanen

as well.

 

[cygnus47]

I have a question about the Letang pinch:

I'm assigning blame to Despres, but here's my question - Despres is the LHS. He's playing the Left hand side with Letang. The "pinch" happens on the right side.

Where is Despres supposed to be positioned? He seemed to be in the middle of the ice, his only issue was ... depth?

And to me, it looked like he got caught off guard and didn't know whether to turn his hips and chase or try to cut off the pass, and sort of got caught thinking?

Is this accurate?

If so, what is Despres responsibility there?

To be honest, I think he just didn't notice the guy behind him. He played it a little casual and he wasn't really ready for it.

It was one bad play, I don't know why everyone cares this much? He made one bad play with an odd pairing and now he's being written off his usual partner? Christ you guys are fickle. Orpik had a worse game, he's the one who should be drawing the attention.

 

[Rocket of Russia]

Your opinion unassailable now?

I'd have had no problem with a defense partner moving up to just within the blueline when there was a 50/50 puck in front of the opposition net and the biggest threat other than my mark was that close to his own net. None. There was nothing close to a threat until Despres' lack of awareness and attempt to break up the pass let Higgins get loose.

You say Letang was trapped and only recovered because of his speed? Well let's break it down. Here's where Hansen first gets possession and Letang is aware:

Note the PARIS HILTON-SIZED GAP between Letang and Hansen. That's trapped?

Here's where Letang is already on his horse to cut Hansen off:

Letang is already skating at full tilt here, at the blueline:

I don't see how anyone can interpret that as a bad pinch or a threat that left Despres out to dry. Despres' misread is what manufactured Higgins breakaway.



I didn't see any of this with Letang last night. He was playing within himself, making simple plays like quick reverses and easy exit passes all night long with no *****footing around in his own end. No offense Cole, but I think Letang has entered Bylmsa territory on this board where people have so many problems with him that they can't appreciate when he does something right anymore. He was flying out there when he should have and composed when he needed to be, probably for the first time this season.

I'll take last night's Letang for 7 mil per in a heartbeat.



That stinger he took off his foot early in the game played a part, I'm sure. On the TSN broadcast they said he had his skate off at the 1st intermission.

Hard to argue that.

Like I said, I would've preferred not to "pinch" in the third period of a tie game, but it was a gamble that could've paid off, especially if the perceived risk was deemed to be mitigated by Letang being able to get back. Video evidence showed he was more than able to get back. More often than not I think Despres makes a better read. He didn't there. I wouldn't hold either of them to the flame for it.

Posters reaching drastically different conclusions while watching the same game is hardly out of the ordinary. I thought Letang had an amazing game, and if he played every remaining game like that - scoring, drawing penalties, rushing pucks, making plays off the glass, getting open for point-blank opportunities - then he's easily the Pens' best defenseman, and I look forward to having my meager mind dazzled by his flash. A player, that with a little more patience, reservation, and grooming as he enters his prime, shows flashes of Scott Niedermeyer...we've got it so rough.

 

[ColePens]

When that type of game doesn't work in the postseason and all of you start *****ing, I'll gladly be saying "I told you so." The idea here isn't to look amazing in the regular season. I want to see a formula put together that wins us a postseason series.

Here is my advice, watch how often that type of play works out in the postseason. Or better yet, watch when #58 starts to get pissed because it doesn't work in the postseason and probably takes a stupid penalty.

But hey... same thing goes w/ our stars. Force passes cross the middle and when 1/10 work people go nuts and think they are amazing. Teams like Boston laugh and eat it up. So my question is simple - what are you striving for? If it's to be a flashy and fun regular season team, mission accomplished. I kind of like that shiny toy at the end of the postseason people drink champagne out of.

 

[SidDidNothingWrong]

So the idea here RRP is once again an advocate of this crazy up/down hockey that leaves the Pens with ZERO structure defensively. Yeah.. not one problem at all over the last couple years. I just don't get how people watch this stuff time and time again but love it. Then they sit there and wonder why the same results inevitably happen.

But yes.. sit there w/ some still images and say we should be good on a 1 on 1. I do not get it.

A good question. I know that whenever irresponsible defensive play occurs the homer crowd finds solace in all of the goals and whatnot. So, to us, that Winnipeg game and this game in Vancouver is very disturbing because of all of the defensive mistakes but homers just like seeing Geno and Sid score without really caring about the system in general.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Your opinion unassailable now?

I'd have had no problem with a defense partner moving up to just within the blueline when there was a 50/50 puck in front of the opposition net and the biggest threat other than my mark was that close to his own net. None. There was nothing close to a threat until Despres' lack of awareness and attempt to break up the pass let Higgins get loose.

You say Letang was trapped and only recovered because of his speed? Well let's break it down. Here's where Hansen first gets possession and Letang is aware:

Note the PARIS HILTON-SIZED GAP between Letang and Hansen. That's trapped?

Here's where Letang is already on his horse to cut Hansen off:

Letang is already skating at full tilt here, at the blueline:

I don't see how anyone can interpret that as a bad pinch or a threat that left Despres out to dry. Despres' misread is what manufactured Higgins breakaway.



I didn't see any of this with Letang last night. He was playing within himself, making simple plays like quick reverses and easy exit passes all night long with no *****footing around in his own end. No offense Cole, but I think Letang has entered Bylmsa territory on this board where people have so many problems with him that they can't appreciate when he does something right anymore. He was flying out there when he should have and composed when he needed to be, probably for the first time this season.

I'll take last night's Letang for 7 mil per in a heartbeat.



That stinger he took off his foot early in the game played a part, I'm sure. On the TSN broadcast they said he had his skate off at the 1st intermission.

Watching him for most of the game, I saw nothing wrong in Letang's game against Vancouver, actually, he was playing a damn good game and showing why the team should hang on to him when he's healthy and playing his game.

I am off the "Let's trade Letang" wagon, I felt foolish for even being on it. The structure was absent though, has been since the Jets game, not sure what the hell Bylsma is doing and if J.Martin is even having any influence at all, but yeah, Letang played a solid game despite the 4 goals against.

 

[FDBluth]

Like dis if u watch evrytime

 

[ColePens]

Another interesting perspective. The Ol' 29er was on The X this morning and he sort of mentioned the same thing we all did. It's weird to see any Penguins or Pittsburgh announcer/reporter harp on a player, but PB did a little bit about Tang. Said for his price he really needs to work on his inconsistency and that he wasn't sure about the price tag being that Geno/Sid are already big contracts.

Bourque is one of those Errey type guys who do nothing but pimp Penguins players. For him to even mention it means it's there and quite obvious.

 

[Rocket of Russia]

When that type of game doesn't work in the postseason and all of you start *****ing, I'll gladly be saying "I told you so." The idea here isn't to look amazing in the regular season. I want to see a formula put together that wins us a postseason series.

Here is my advice, watch how often that type of play works out in the postseason. Or better yet, watch when #58 starts to get pissed because it doesn't work in the postseason and probably takes a stupid penalty.

But hey... same thing goes w/ our stars. Force passes cross the middle and when 1/10 work people go nuts and think they are amazing. Teams like Boston laugh and eat it up. So my question is simple - what are you striving for? If it's to be a flashy and fun regular season team, mission accomplished. I kind of like that shiny toy at the end of the postseason people drink champagne out of.

To be honest with Adams playing 12 minutes a night, DB still using Adams and Glass in shut-down situations and not caring whether they're out against top lines (from the looks of it, preferring it), Fleury still having the potential to be playoff Fleury, with no Vokoun to fall back on, Engelland still being dressed for Despres on the regular, double-standards abound, zero accountability (except for Borts, Des, and Bennett of course), log-jammed defensive prospects, Orpik getting worse by the shift, and big question marks on the wings all throughout the lineup I don't think Letang roaming is the line I draw in the sand.

You're certainly right - a lot of the issues that lead to playoff failure are still there. This board has been great at locating and articulating each individual issue. You won't be the only one saying "I told you so" the same way Letang isn't the only player on the roster suffering from apparent accountability issues. He’s been the whipping boy around here for much of the season. I thought the noose would be loosened a bit after one of, if not the, most dominant performance from a Pittsburgh defenseman all season. Instead it tightened.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Another interesting perspective. The Ol' 29er was on The X this morning and he sort of mentioned the same thing we all did. It's weird to see any Penguins or Pittsburgh announcer/reporter harp on a player, but PB did a little bit about Tang. Said for his price he really needs to work on his inconsistency and that he wasn't sure about the price tag being that Geno/Sid are already big contracts.

Bourque is one of those Errey type guys who do nothing but pimp Penguins players. For him to even mention it means it's there and quite obvious.

It's frustrating, sad, what have you, that people thought he played a great game simply because he was carrying the puck well and making plays in the attacking zone. Letang needs to be set free to do his thing! Let other players worry about his defensive responsibilities! (Wtf?)

Then the same people will turn around and ***** about lack of structure and how this team fails miserably in the playoffs, robble, robble, robble.

He is suppose to be their leader on defense and he plays with zero responsibility and after six years in the league he still doesn't grasp situational hockey.

Green green green!

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

To be honest with Adams playing 12 minutes a night, DB still using Adams and Glass in shut-down situations and not caring whether they're out against top lines (from the looks of it, preferring it), Fleury still having the potential to be playoff Fleury, with no Vokoun to fall back on, Engelland still being dressed for Despres on the regular, double-standards abound, zero accountability (except for Borts, Des, and Bennett of course), log-jammed defensive prospects, Orpik getting worse by the shift, and big question marks on the wings all throughout the lineup I don't think Letang roaming is the line I draw in the sand.

You're certainly right - a lot of the issues that lead to playoff failure are still there. This board has been great at locating and articulating each individual issue. You won't be the only one saying "I told you so" the same way Letang isn't the only player on the roster suffering from apparent accountability issues. He’s been the whipping boy around here for much of the season. I thought the noose would be loosened a bit after one of, if not the, most dominant performance from a Pittsburgh defenseman all season. Instead it tightened.

He played a dominant offensive game, nothing more. Even PK Subban, who was a complete rover in jr and would do spin o ramas with the puck as the last man back, has adapted his game much better to the pros.

Letang creates chaos on both sides, and it doesn't have to be that way.

Just like with Orpik, I don't enjoy saying this stuff, but it's the truth. Letang has been one of my favorite players since he was drafted and I started following him with Val d'Or.

Expecting him to play within a structured system and pick his spots more cautiously, isn't unrealistic. In fact, it's exactly what he should of started doing years ago.

 

[radapex]

He played a dominant offensive game, nothing more. Even PK Subban, who was a complete rover in jr and would do spin o ramas with the puck as the last man back, has adapted his game much better to the pros.

Letang creates chaos on both sides, and it doesn't have to be that way.

Just like with Orpik, I don't enjoy saying this stuff, but it's the truth. Letang has been one of my favorite players since he was drafted and I started following him with Val d'Or.

Expecting him to play within a structured system and pick his spots more cautiously, isn't unrealistic. In fact, it's exactly what he should of started doing years ago.

Absolutely. I know some people want to believe that Letang's injuries cost him a spot on the Olympic team but the fact is - he's Mike Green. He was left off the team because he's a defensive zone liability.

 

[ColePens]

To be honest with Adams playing 12 minutes a night, DB still using Adams and Glass in shut-down situations and not caring whether they're out against top lines (from the looks of it, preferring it), Fleury still having the potential to be playoff Fleury, with no Vokoun to fall back on, Engelland still being dressed for Despres on the regular, double-standards abound, zero accountability (except for Borts, Des, and Bennett of course), log-jammed defensive prospects, Orpik getting worse by the shift, and big question marks on the wings all throughout the lineup I don't think Letang roaming is the line I draw in the sand.

You're certainly right - a lot of the issues that lead to playoff failure are still there. This board has been great at locating and articulating each individual issue. You won't be the only one saying "I told you so" the same way Letang isn't the only player on the roster suffering from apparent accountability issues. He’s been the whipping boy around here for much of the season. I thought the noose would be loosened a bit after one of, if not the, most dominant performance from a Pittsburgh defenseman all season. Instead it tightened.

We can damn sure agree on that.

 

[Pens1566]

It's frustrating, sad, what have you, that people thought he played a great game simply because he was carrying the puck well and making plays in the attacking zone. Letang needs to be set free to do his thing! Let other players worry about his defensive responsibilities! (Wtf?)

Then the same people will turn around and ***** about lack of structure and how this team fails miserably in the playoffs, robble, robble, robble.

He is suppose to be their leader on defense and he plays with zero responsibility and after six years in the league he still doesn't grasp situational hockey.

Green green green!

There's a difference between saying he played great, and saying he played his best game of the year. The latter is what I believe everyone here (at least me exactly) was saying.

 

[ColePens]

It's frustrating, sad, what have you, that people thought he played a great game simply because he was carrying the puck well and making plays in the attacking zone. Letang needs to be set free to do his thing! Let other players worry about his defensive responsibilities! (Wtf?)

Then the same people will turn around and ***** about lack of structure and how this team fails miserably in the playoffs, robble, robble, robble.

He is suppose to be their leader on defense and he plays with zero responsibility and after six years in the league he still doesn't grasp situational hockey.

Green green green!

Or how about how many people laugh at Dustin Byfuglien when he screws up defensively and say he's not worth a damn because of it, but then go ahead and praise Tangers all day. It makes no sense. Green is sadly a decent comparison. He's not that weak defensively, but his idiotic tendencies make up for it.

And people might think I'm a hater, this is the first time I've really set the bar for Tangers because I had him at a 3.5M player who was inconsistent (where I have Nisky). Tangers has the ability now to be THE GUY. I look around the league at those type of guys and I hold that standard damn high. I understand mistakes. I understand turnovers. Consistently doing the same thing is not something I can buy into. In the playoffs is where I stopped believing in #58. He was a joke. He was just one of those guys I would love to get under his skin because it's soooooo easy.

 

[Shady Machine]

Hard to argue that.

Like I said, I would've preferred not to "pinch" in the third period of a tie game, but it was a gamble that could've paid off, especially if the perceived risk was deemed to be mitigated by Letang being able to get back. Video evidence showed he was more than able to get back. More often than not I think Despres makes a better read. He didn't there. I wouldn't hold either of them to the flame for it.

Posters reaching drastically different conclusions while watching the same game is hardly out of the ordinary. I thought Letang had an amazing game, and if he played every remaining game like that - scoring, drawing penalties, rushing pucks, making plays off the glass, getting open for point-blank opportunities - then he's easily the Pens' best forward, and I look forward to having my meager mind dazzled by his flash. A player, that with a little more patience, reservation, and grooming as he enters his prime, shows flashes of Scott Niedermeyer...we've got it so rough.

Fixed that for you. Everything you mentioned is pretty much on the offensive side of the puck. How about defending being a major part of the equation to being the best defenseman?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Absolutely. I know some people want to believe that Letang's injuries cost him a spot on the Olympic team but the fact is - he's Mike Green. He was left off the team because he's a defensive zone liability.

It's not even his defensive zone play I'm unhappy with. He generally plays well (when he is actually back there). He is a tremendous 1-1 player (when he is in position).

The problem is he forces things and plays outside of the system far too often. It creates chaos and leads to breakdowns and unnecessary scoring opportunities.

Offensive wizards on the back end like Zubny and Niedermayer thrived under suffocating systems and were still responsible players that didn't constantly expose their respective teams.

I don't see a single reason why Letang can't play a similar game; choosing his spots much more carefully when pinching and being more responsible with the puck. I seriously doubt it will effect his offensive production and will in turn make him a rock this team can finally start to lean on.

 

[Til the End of Time]

Absolutely. I know some people want to believe that Letang's injuries cost him a spot on the Olympic team but the fact is - he's Mike Green. He was left off the team because he's a defensive zone liability.

rarely do i agree with you, but i totally agree on this one.

the hockey we saw the other night from letang, in his best game of the season, is doomed to failure in the postseason. being a fourth forward and constantly pinching is in no way conducive to success when teams clamp down defensively.

letang's brand of hockey has already proved disastrous in the postseason. how can people continue to be OK with this?

 

[Shady Machine]

Watching him for most of the game, I saw nothing wrong in Letang's game against Vancouver, actually, he was playing a damn good game and showing why the team should hang on to him when he's healthy and playing his game.

I am off the "Let's trade Letang" wagon, I felt foolish for even being on it. The structure was absent though, has been since the Jets game, not sure what the hell Bylsma is doing and if J.Martin is even having any influence at all, but yeah, Letang played a solid game despite the 4 goals against.

So it's the coaches fault for the structure magically disappearing when Letang comes back into the lineup?