Post-Game Talk: They should call it VanHoover. Get it? Pens 5 - Canucks 4

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stardog

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Okay, so a lot of posters I respect are split on Letang. This is interesting :)

You seem surprised by that! You know how it goes around here with Letang and objectivity.
It's like Dan Bylsma benching Craig Adams. Simply won't happen :)
 

stardog

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The reality is if Letang is being paid like an elite blueliner next season, he needs to start showing those traits NOW. Six years is long enough to keep making the same mistakes.

It's the same argument I had about Neal. He scored a lot of goals, so it was "unfair" of me to expect him to work harder on the boards and move his feet. What? I still laugh at that (and Malkin's nickname for him).

But Neal is now playing like I knew he could, just as I know Letang can play elite level defense while maintaining his offensive production. It's not unrealistic to expect that from a guy with his talents, making what he will next season.

If PK Subban can adapt his game, there are zero reasons Letang can't.

Well...except that perhaps his brain is not his strong point.
And sadly, this just might be true.

However, if I may bring up a point (ah hell...you know me Jiggly, I'll bring it up regardless)... you mention two of the greatest offensive defensemen of all time when it comes to the cerebral aspects of the game in Zubov and Niedermeyer. This is what seperates them from others (like Letang and Mike Green) and helped cement their place in history as such.
If you are expecting that kind of otherwordly on ice awareness from Kris Letang then you are going to be waiting for a very very long time.
I defend Letang on here against the stupid comments...like he is awful in his own end. Like he doesnt have one iota how to play defense. Or when people constantly bash him after a game he has played well in.
I cant defend him against comments that are true. And the dude makes poor decisions on when to pinch or jump into the offensive zone at times. He always has since becoming a pro and always will.
I believe you said this a few months ago when discussing his contract. Something to the affect of this is who he is and we are always going to have this issue. Or something to the nature of you expect this of him once or twice a game.
I agreed with that. It doesn't make it right but I have come to accept it. And in saying that, I am not going to pretend to justify this as a take the good with the bad because, like you, I hope his game continues to mature as it has been in his six years in the league. Just as I am also not going to judge his entire game on a bad pinch at a bad moment as if it nullifies all of the good he did in the game (see:half the posters in this thread whouse that as ammunition to put it towards the whole rather than the parts).

And furthermore, I think Zubov is a PERFECT person to bring up when discussing Letang.
Perfect.
Because, revisionist history aside (not by you), Pittsburgh fans ran him out of town and hated on him much the same way they do Letang for perceived slights in his game. The whole "SHOOT SHOOT" B.S. on the power play to the point of perception becoming reality. It is ALL people started seeing. He passes up a shot on the powerplay and he played an AWFUL game.

Never mind that he quarterbacked a league leading powerplay that finished with a great 26% efficiency rating (one of the best in the modern era...and one that finished at 21% with the same forwards the next year, sans Zubov). Never mind that he scored 11 goals from the blueline in only 64 games. Never mind that he was a premier offensive weapon from the blueline who was just hitting his prime. All people saw was the negative based on a perception that people swelled into a huge mountain. And it is an untrue perception that has become a fact to most while remaining untrue to this very day.

And much like people...years afterwards of course, admitted that they mistakenly wanted Zubov gone, the same will happen with Letang if he is ever moved. It was a HUGE mistake to trade away a young blueliner who had just amassed 66 points in 64 games and was a dominant force in the playoffs where we reached the ECF (all of this sounds vaguely familiar).
So yeah. Kris Letang has warts in his game. So does Crosby. So does Malkin. So does every single player who has ever played the game.
The maddening part about Letangs are that they seem relatively easily correctable. Crosby tries to force way to many passes that aren't there. Malkin's level of consistency wavers. Hell, on this board Paul Martin has become a freaking god nowadays and does no wrong (nevermind the issues with the outlet passes up the boards to noone in particular).
But Letang is vilified for his simply because they are glaring. And because of what Capp calls confirmation bias.
And because they are more glaring does that mean they are more costly? Sometimes, but just as often not.
Letang is now going to make his mistakes or two and after the game the same old posters are going to pile on the same old crap while giving the same old players the same old glories (in this forum glory comes in the form of a +).
And that is why when it comes to Letang I pay very little credence to what most say about him on here.
Just as the responses I get when defending him mostly mean nothing. The whole, "are you blind? He was horrible blah blah blah" which comes from people whose opinions I happen to respect. Whose posts I happen to enjoy reading and who's insights I find valuable...when it comes to Letang a portion of this board is blinded.
He is the premier 5 on 5 offensive blueliner in this league who makes some mind numbingly dumb decisions.
But to say that their chances of winning another cup or not hinge on his ability to mature his game? I very respectfully disagree. It would help, for certain. Just as I respectfully disagree that he is the cause of the entire team to play loose when he is in the lineup.
This team has far greater issues hindering it from winning the cup than Kris Letang making better choices of when to pinch...and those,as you and I know, start from behind the bench.

And yes, I truly do think he played a GREAT game against Vancouver. One of his very best this year.
 
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stardog

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This exactly. He's a pretty decent in zone defender and can make you pay physically in the corners and 1 on 1. It's his play without the puck in transition (both offensive and defensive transition) that frustrates me the most.

What exactly frusterates you about his transition? Getting back when making an ill advised pinch to be certain. That I can see. But you mentioned offensive AND defensive. And I have very little qualms with his game when it comes to transition from defense into offense.
As in getting the puck in the D zone and getting it out quick, and already at full speed.
 

stardog

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Yep if only Letang had been more offensive during that Philly series. Oh wait nevermind.

This is the type of post I was aluding to.
The sheer hyperbole. As if any one player, short of a goalie is the sole culprit as to the beating the entire team took in a given series.
And sadly enough we have people whom actually think this way.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

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Jan 29, 2004
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Your simplification is an over-simplification. Not all coaches want their defense to play the same way, and judging from Bylsma's comments, he wants Letang to make exactly the sort of play he made there.

Once again, for what, the tenth time, basic hockey is basic hockey.

I'm 100% sure on that play, in that situation, DB wants Letang back on his heels. However, he "overlooks" it, and the beat goes on and Letang continues down the same path.

A Beautiful Mind.

Considering your defense of Despres' glacial processing speed on that play, even slow-paced games might be problematic. ;)

Or you know, the fact you have no experience understanding how quickly a play like that develops, which is beyond obvious by now.

On the whole, I don't have a problem with Letang's structure prior to this year. He's a dynamic offensive defensemen so he's going to have his share of pinches and gambles, which is fine so long as they're calculated. His problems in his own end generally stem from poor puck management, IMO.

And I already said as much about his play in his own end. However, as I keep pointing out, he should not be gambling late in the third in a tie game with the fourth line on the ice. They had zero possession shifts the entire night.

Letang should of been back on his heels when that puck was turned over in the slot, despite any defense you want to come up with for him.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

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Jan 29, 2004
34,309
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Well...except that perhaps his brain is not his strong point.
And sadly, this just might be true.

However, if I may bring up a point (ah hell...you know me Jiggly, I'll bring it up regardless)... you mention two of the greatest offensive defensemen of all time when it comes to the cerebral aspects of the game in Zubov and Niedermeyer. This is what seperates them from others (like Letang and Mike Green) and helped cement their place in history as such.
If you are expecting that kind of otherwordly on ice awareness from Kris Letang then you are going to be waiting for a very very long time.
I defend Letang on here against the stupid comments...like he is awful in his own end. Like he doesnt have one iota how to play defense. Or when people constantly bash him after a game he has played well in.
I cant defend him against comments that are true. And the dude makes poor decisions on when to pinch or jump into the offensive zone at times. He always has since becoming a pro and always will.
I believe you said this a few months ago when discussing his contract. Something to the affect of this is who he is and we are always going to have this issue. Or something to the nature of you expect this of him once or twice a game.
I agreed with that. It doesn't make it right but I have come to accept it. And in saying that, I am not going to pretend to justify this as a take the good with the bad because, like you, I hope his game continues to mature as it has been in his six years in the league. Just as I am also not going to judge his entire game on a bad pinch at a bad moment as if it nullifies all of the good he did in the game (see:half the posters in this thread whouse that as ammunition to put it towards the whole rather than the parts).

And furthermore, I think Zubov is a PERFECT person to bring up when discussing Letang.
Perfect.
Because, revisionist history aside (not by you), Pittsburgh fans ran him out of town and hated on him much the same way they do Letang for perceived slights in his game. The whole "SHOOT SHOOT" B.S. on the power play to the point of perception becoming reality. It is ALL people started seeing. He passes up a shot on the powerplay and he played an AWFUL game.

Never mind that he quarterbacked a league leading powerplay that finished with a great 26% efficiency rating (one of the best in the modern era...and one that finished at 21% with the same forwards the next year, sans Zubov). Never mind that he scored 11 goals from the blueline in only 64 games. Never mind that he was a premier offensive weapon from the blueline who was just hitting his prime. All people saw was the negative based on a perception that people swelled into a huge mountain. And it is an untrue perception that has become a fact to most while remaining untrue to this very day.

And much like people...years afterwards of course, admitted that they mistakenly wanted Zubov gone, the same will happen with Letang if he is ever moved. It was a HUGE mistake to trade away a young blueliner who had just amassed 66 points in 64 games and was a dominant force in the playoffs where we reached the ECF (all of this sounds vaguely familiar).
So yeah. Kris Letang has warts in his game. So does Crosby. So does Malkin. So does every single player who has ever played the game.
The maddening part about Letangs are that they seem relatively easily correctable. Crosby tries to force way to many passes that aren't there. Malkin's level of consistency wavers. Hell, on this board Paul Martin has become a freaking god nowadays and does no wrong (nevermind the issues with the outlet passes up the boards to noone in particular).
But Letang is vilified for his simply because they are glaring. And because of what Capp calls confirmation bias.
And because they are more glaring does that mean they are more costly? Sometimes, but just as often not.
Letang is now going to make his mistakes or two and after the game the same old posters are going to pile on the same old crap while giving the same old players the same old glories (in this forum glory comes in the form of a +).
And that is why when it comes to Letang I pay very little credence to what most say about him on here.
Just as the responses I get when defending him mostly mean nothing. The whole, "are you blind? He was horrible blah blah blah" which comes from people whose opinions I happen to respect. Whose posts I happen to enjoy reading and who's insights I find valuable...when it comes to Letang a portion of this board is blinded.
He is the premier 5 on 5 offensive blueliner in this league who makes some mind numbingly dumb decisions.
But to say that their chances of winning another cup or not hinge on his ability to mature his game? I very respectfully disagree. It would help, for certain. Just as I respectfully disagree that he is the cause of the entire team to play loose when he is in the lineup.
This team has far greater issues hindering it from winning the cup than Kris Letang making better choices of when to pinch...and those,as you and I know, start from behind the bench.

And yes, I truly do think he played a GREAT game against Vancouver. One of his very best this year.

- He played a great game offensively and once again played irresponsible hockey.

- Zubov was my favorite player and I wanted to put my fist through the tv when I found out he was traded. I knew what they had in him, so despite what other fans thought, I wasn't stupid enough to think he was "awful".

- it isn't unfair to expect Letang to put up points and play a sound game when, as I pointed out, Zubby and Nieds played in the most restrictive systems around and still thrived. Letang has many of their skill sets, but the difference so far seems to be between the ears. You also have Maatta playing in the same system, putting up points, without being irresponsible on the ice.

- if you think they can win another cup with Letang playing freewheeling hockey, good luck bro. It won't happen.
 
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