Therrien Part V - Ender Wiggins Edition

[ECWHSWI]

OK, I'll bite. I'd say that if the following things happened, we'd get more goals:

Sekac used his shot more.
Eller as well.
Desharnais as well.
Bournival would get his nose dirty and go to the net.
Malhotra would shoot when he could and follow to the net.
Beaulieu would get his shots through and not have them blocked.
Same with Gilbert.
The players would have a better net presence on the PP.
The team would commit fewer icings.

Now, if you agree these things would help, it's time to be honest. I have heard Michel Therrien ask for each every one of those exact things from those exact players, and from his team as a whole. So I am having a hard time believing that Michel Therrien does not want to score more goals.

it's his job to make them work the way he wants to.

 

[ECWHSWI]

He's described pretty much all the coaches in the NHL - very dishonest just to pin this on Therrien. This is very much NA-NHL hockey - listen to any interview in NA from pro to junior to NCAA - they all speak the same way. Simple, hard, no turnoves, etc.

And by the way, did anyone complain when Babcock took one of the best teams ever assembled and went to Sochi and played 2-1 hockey all tournament. Did anyone come on hockeyboards to call Babs an idiot, a fool, while he schooled the hockey world. (ok, a few Subban fan boys did )

are you really trying to say Babcock uses dump and chase as him main strategy ?

 

[Hab-a-maniac]

He's described pretty much all the coaches in the NHL - very dishonest just to pin this on Therrien. This is very much NA-NHL hockey - listen to any interview in NA from pro to junior to NCAA - they all speak the same way. Simple, hard, no turnoves, etc.

And by the way, did anyone complain when Babcock took one of the best teams ever assembled and went to Sochi and played 2-1 hockey all tournament. Did anyone come on hockeyboards to call Babs an idiot, a fool, while he schooled the hockey world. (ok, a few Subban fan boys did )

True but Therrien is probably one of the weaker of the "Win 2-1 at all costs" coaches. He shows even less imagination and flexibility than Babcock, Trotz, Laviolette et al. His aversion to youngsters is borderline delusional.

 

[Habnot]

are you really trying to say Babcock uses dump and chase as him main strategy ?

Nice job putting words in my mouth. They didn't have to dump and chase, they had crazy possession numbers - but it was defense first. If you take away the 6-0 Austria game, they scored 11 goals in the remaining 5 games and gave up only 3 goals the rest of the tournament.

True but Therrien is probably one of the weaker of the "Win 2-1 at all costs" coaches. He shows even less imagination and flexibility than Babcock, Trotz, Laviolette et al. His aversion to youngsters is borderline delusional.

First, that's pretty good company and you are entitled to your opinion. As for his aversion to youngsters, as I mentioned before it is unfair to pin thin on Therrien alone. This is very much the organizational standard from Hamilton upward and is more a reflection of Bergevin.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

I have no issues if you don't agree with the tactical orientation of this club and/or player utilization - but you cannot discount the progress and success this team has had under Bergevin and Therrien. Saying it's all on Price is lazy and dishonest.

Also, you cannot separate Bergevin from Therrien. Therrien is coaching and managing the players very much in accordance with how Bergevin wants it. Lefebvre is coaching and developing exactly how Bergevin and Dudley want it. Targeting Therrien is clearly all about a personal hatred for the individual and I'm sure that the majority of the haters haven't changed their opinion from the day he was hired.

The flaws in our game are more the flaws in our lineup. Some here have the audacity to claim that we can roll with the elite in terms of talent. Top teams don't have the glaring personnel holes such as size down the middle and a very thin defense. The system we play is a function of the personnel MB has given to MT.

As for my comment of bad fans, that label is for those who have used this forum to call Therrien a fool, an idiot, a terrible coach, and that management should all be fired because they hired that clown. Go back - read the thread and if the shoe fits...

...the bolded is fundamentally untrue; in fact, the assets that Bergevin acquired in the offseasons the last couple years (Sekac, Gilbert, Parenteau, Gonchar, Briere) all play a transition/possession game that flies directly in the face of Therrien's passive chip-&-chase, loose forecheck, passive defensive (clog the lanes) system and the players that Bergevin has shipped out (Moen, Bork, Gorges) were the last of Therrien's "old grinders"...why would MB acquire these pieces and move out Therrien's "grinders" if he didn't want to build a strong transition/possession team??...the "flaws" in our lineup are actually made glaringly obvious by Therrien's system; we are not playing to our strengths...Bergevin has said multiple times that he wants to build this team using his knowledge and experience he gained in Chicago, one of the strongest transition/possession teams in the League...yes, people sometimes go a bit far with the "hate" on Therrien, but the concern for what he's doing, or not doing, with this team is very real and it isn't just the "advanced stats" that show it; watch how many times we're outplayed by teams we absolutely shouldn't be outplayed by and hang on to win a one-goal game because we have the best goaltender on the planet...that shouldn't happen with the talent we have on our roster (yes, we do have a contender-worthy roster)...are there holes??...absolutely, just like there are on every other team in the League...relying soo heavily on Price and grinding out 2-1 wins with a team who's strengths don't lie in a grinding game is counter-intuitive...see Pittsburg '08-'09...

 

[Kriss E]

OK, I'll bite. I'd say that if the following things happened, we'd get more goals:

Sekac used his shot more.
Eller as well.
Desharnais as well.
Bournival would get his nose dirty and go to the net.
Malhotra would shoot when he could and follow to the net.
Beaulieu would get his shots through and not have them blocked.
Same with Gilbert.
The players would have a better net presence on the PP.
The team would commit fewer icings.

Now, if you agree these things would help, it's time to be honest. I have heard Michel Therrien ask for each every one of those exact things from those exact players, and from his team as a whole. So I am having a hard time believing that Michel Therrien does not want to score more goals.

So almost half the team isn't executing what the coach is telling them to do and that's somehow an argument for Therrien?

 

[Rapala]

MT and MB have both been applauded for the winning attitude they have brought to this organization.
I don't like coach and never have but I can't dispute his will.
He does seem to get the boys to buy into some of his grimey play but it is a style of game that will eventually take its toll. There seems to be more reward for the coach than the individual player in his system if that makes sense... He isn't a rewards oriented instructor and probably doesn't use airmiles... LOL

 

[Habnot]

...the bolded is fundamentally untrue; in fact, the assets that Bergevin acquired in the offseasons the last couple years (Sekac, Gilbert, Parenteau, Gonchar, Briere) all play a transition/possession game that flies directly in the face of Therrien's passive chip-&-chase, loose forecheck, passive defensive (clog the lanes) system and the players that Bergevin has shipped out (Moen, Bork, Gorges) were the last of Therrien's "old grinders"...why would MB acquire these pieces and move out Therrien's "grinders" if he didn't want to build a strong transition/possession team??...the "flaws" in our lineup are actually made glaringly obvious by Therrien's system; we are not playing to our strengths...Bergevin has said multiple times that he wants to build this team using his knowledge and experience he gained in Chicago, one of the strongest transition/possession teams in the League...yes, people sometimes go a bit far with the "hate" on Therrien, but the concern for what he's doing, or not doing, with this team is very real and it isn't just the "advanced stats" that show it; watch how many times we're outplayed by teams we absolutely shouldn't be outplayed by and hang on to win a one-goal game because we have the best goaltender on the planet...that shouldn't happen with the talent we have on our roster (yes, we do have a contender-worthy roster)...are there holes??...absolutely, just like there are on every other team in the League...relying soo heavily on Price and grinding out 2-1 wins with a team who's strengths don't lie in a grinding game is counter-intuitive...see Pittsburg '08-'09...

Let me get this straight, Bergevin loves transition/possession hockey and therefore philosophically at odds with Therrien yet he signs him to a 4 YEAR EXTENSION. Got it.

As for his players acquisition, nice that you didn't include Murray, Weaver, Malhotra, Allen, Weise I guess also possession players

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

Let me get this straight, Bergevin loves transition/possession hockey and therefore philosophically at odds with Therrien yet he signs him to a 4 YEAR EXTENSION. Got it.

As for his players acquisition, nice that you didn't include Murray, Weaver, Malhotra, Allen, Weise I guess also possession players

..I really didn't think I'd have to explain Prust, Weise or Malholtra to you...want me to??...OK, Prust & Weise are 4th liners and Malholtra is a 4th liner faceoff specialist...see, you still need a 4th line (although I wish we would have kept Whitey)...Murray was because we "needed" veteran size on the blueline (a Therrien quote), Weaver was a deadline pickup for depth on RD that we liked and kept...for depth on RD...Allen was the dump we had to take back to get rid of Bork...so all the guys I listed were here to play Top 9/Top 4 D and you listed...4th liners/Depth D...gotcha...

 

[Habnot]

..I really didn't think I'd have to explain Prust, Weise or Malholtra to you...want me to??...OK, Prust & Weise are 4th liners and Malholtra is a 4th liner faceoff specialist...see, you still need a 4th line (although I wish we would have kept Whitey)...Murray was because we "needed" veteran size on the blueline (a Therrien quote), Weaver was a deadline pickup for depth on RD that we liked and kept...for depth on RD...Allen was the dump we had to take back to get rid of Bork...so all the guys I listed were here to play Top 9/Top 4 D and you listed...4th liners/Depth D...gotcha...

Interesting how you come up with supporting arguments when you want to promote your agenda. How about applying the same standards to the players you mentioned. Briere was brought in for PP not for transition/possession - he was a finished player. The only way we could get rid of him, was to trade for another useless "possession" player - Paranteau. Gilbert was plan B - and if he's the possession poster boy then we need to revisit the relevance of Corsi. See I can play this all night long.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

Interesting how you come up with supporting arguments when you want to promote your agenda. How about applying the same standards to the players you mentioned. Briere was brought in for PP not for transition/possession - he was a finished player. The only way we could get rid of him, was to trade for another useless "possession" player - Paranteau. Gilbert was plan B - and if he's the possession poster boy then we need to revisit the relevance of Corsi. See I can play this all night long.

...there's no agenda, just the truth...all play a transition/possession game, not a chip-&-chase game, not a "grinding" game...same thing was brought up in '08 & '09 with Pitt...we all know how that ended up for Therrien...interesting how you ignore the facts when they're presented to you in order to further your agenda...

 

[Daniels45]

I have no issues with people who bring up good points to argue why they think that although we are having an awesome season in the standings, our play isn't convincing and that MT and his system are to blame. No issues whatsoever with that as long as it doesn't get personal in regards to MT or other posters here who disagree. I think there is way too much unwarranted hate on the guy on these boards from Hab fans and because of that these argument loose merit.

My problem is the total lack of respect and maturity some people here show towards the coach because they disagree with him on lines and how he uses the players at his disposal or which system he employs. Its all a bit childish and silly the way some are pretty darn nasty on the guy. Shows a certain lack of maturity. Sometimes when Im on these boards I'm like wth, this is exactly like how it is on the Boston boards and they are barely making the playoffs and have had a very tough season. They have reason to complain. Not us. Not this way and certainly not with the nasty personal attacks on our coach. The guy just doesn't deserve it.

Sure he's not perfect. No coach is. He is given a roster at the beginning of the season and its his job to do the best he can with it, hoping that everyone stays healthy and that they play the best that their respective talents allow them too. You may disagree with how he does this but you cant hate the guy for trying to do his job the way he thinks it should be done with the players he has atm. Especially not when its been working pretty much all year.

Yes the team have issues and that could bite them if the roster stays the same going into the playoffs but that's not all on MT, the coaching staff and the system. Its on the players, and upper management as well. I honestly do not think that MT is keeping this team from being better. I think he coaches the way he needs to with the team he has atm and I also think that hes not alone in deciding how the team plays. Like he has often said in the past. Decisions are made by upper management and the coaching staff together. Its not a one man show like some here seem to think but of course the buck stops with him and as he surely knows, is the one who will fall in the end.

 

[Rapala]

coach is not an equal opportunity employer and would possibly be charged with discrimination in a corporate environment if he acted the same way.

 

[SirClintonPortis]

Transition is a much different beast from possession. It is the very quick period from getting out of your own zone or forcing a turnover in the neutral zone and getting into the offensive zone, preferably with numbers. Jacques Martin did have a good system that helped our transition game, with a superb breakout and demanding our forwards to make crisp passes to each other while going through the neutral zone.

Possession is more about being able to win puck battles in both ends of the, although generating turnovers helps you gain posession.

Briere was acquired based on playoff reputation and offense for 4 million. The miscalculation was in thing that DDretty could benefit from him. Pacioretty might done ok with just Briere, but throw a small center as well and all bets are off. Plus, Briere was utter **** on defense.

 

[Daniels45]

coach is not an equal opportunity employer and would possibly be charged with discrimination in a corporate environment if he acted the same way.

You don't have all the info that the coach has at his disposal for making the decisions he and his coaching staff make. You and I may not agree with these, but he certainly has his reasons and its certainly not just because he LIKES a player's personality more than an others. No. What a coach likes is a player he feels will play the way he thinks he will play and does.

Coaches need to win to keep their jobs in this business and they will use whomever they think will help them win . Do you seriously think that MT doesn't know that DD isn't a first line center? Don't you think he would prefer to have AG playing center instead? Why do you think its not the case? Just personal dislike of AG? I think that he thinks that at this moment in time, DD is the better first line center or until AG proves him wrong. Is this set in stone? Probably not but for the moment its working.

 

[SirClintonPortis]

coach is not an equal opportunity employer and would possibly be charged with discrimination in a corporate environment if he acted the same way.

Discrimination might be a stretch. Favoritism though, is likely under Mr. Therrien.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2012/10/26/how-to-deal-with-favoritism-in-the-office/

http://www.gpb.org/blogs/working-and-career/2012/01/12/signs-your-boss-doesnt-like-you



http://whatthebestmanagersknowanddo...who-plays-favorites-managing-poor-management/

 

[SirClintonPortis]

You don't have all the info that the coach has at his disposal for making the decisions he and his coaching staff make. You and I may not agree with these, but he certainly has his reasons and its certainly not just because he LIKES a player's personality more than an others. No. What a coach likes is a player he feels will play the way he thinks he will play and does.

Coaches need to win to keep their jobs in this business and they will use whomever they think will help them win . Do you seriously think that MT doesn't know that DD isn't a first line center? Don't you think he would prefer to have AG playing center instead? Why do you think its not the case? Just personal dislike of AG? I think that he thinks that at this moment in time, DD is the better first line center or until AG proves him wrong. Is this set in stone? Probably not but for the moment its working.

Does being in a position of authority make said person more knowledgable or immune to biases? No. Therrien is just another manager, just in a sport with more publicity. It's just most ****** managers don't have a public to deal with and hence their victims have to cope with favoritism themselves. If even after taking the various advice available to "change your ways" to get noticed and yet the boss STILL gives you an "F" or equivalent, then it is clearly the boss who is being the irrational beast.

There is no justification for a ****ing FIFTY POINT AT BEST center to be deemed better offensively than someone who packs a lot more skill and is probably just as defensively competently. And during the brief trial this season, Galchenyuk was producing at an adequate pace. But Therrien broke it up at first moment their production slowed down, like many a fantasy hockey manager does with some players.

There is also no justification for Francis Bouillon to be logging some of the big minutes he during his time here, all the while Therrien was throwing Subban, his most common partner under the bus.

 

[Daniels45]

Discrimination might be a stretch. Favoritism though, is likely under Mr. Therrien.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2012/10/26/how-to-deal-with-favoritism-in-the-office/

http://www.gpb.org/blogs/working-and-career/2012/01/12/signs-your-boss-doesnt-like-you



http://whatthebestmanagersknowanddo...who-plays-favorites-managing-poor-management/

And why does a coach favour a player over another ? If I was a coach, I would favour the players that consistently give me 100% and help me win games. I would also tend to favour certain veterans because without them I could end up losing the room. Then there are players I wouldn't have a choice to play because although there not perfect and that sometime they make me cringe, their the best I got atm. That's how I see most coaches in the league and MT is no different.

 

[SirClintonPortis]

Oh, and remember, Therrien was the guy who got fired mid-season and was replaced by an equally incompetent Xs-and-Os guy but who was someone who could connect with his players. Therrien is not a guy who understands human resources issues. His team "quit".

 

[SirClintonPortis]

And why does a coach favour a player over another ? If I was a coach, I would favour the players that consistently give me 100% and help me win games. I would also tend to favour certain veterans because without them I could end up losing the room. Then there are players I wouldn't have a choice to play because although there not perfect and that sometime they make me cringe, their the best I got atm. That's how I see most coaches in the league and MT is no different.

Bouillon might have given 100% but he doesn't help the team win games when he goes over 20+ minutes. DD might given 100% but he isn't going to help the team win in the playoffs. Did favoring those two guys help keep them room? BS. If anything, some centers might be wondering wtf these guys did to earn such icetime over them. Eller and Sekac might indeed have their moments of suck but Coach T decided throw them under the bus and him unskilled. An insult, in public, and in direct contradiction to a past actions even in which he sent DD out to get him out of a slump.

Sekac doesn't work hard? How about Eller leading the team in playoffs scoring? Bournival didn't put the effort in?

DD has not done anything of merit to be Pacioretty's permanent linemate. Pacioretty has even proven he can do just as well with Pleks and Galchenyuk, and arguably better.

 

[Daniels45]

Oh, and remember, Therrien was the guy who got fired mid-season and was replaced by an equally incompetent Xs-and-Os guy but who was someone who could connect with his players. Therrien is not a guy who understands human resources issues.

All coaches get fired one day or almost. Claude Julien got fired just before the playoffs cause NJ's GM didn't think he was reading the team for the offseason the way he thought they should be and look what happened later with Boston.

There are all sorts of coaches and a GM's job is to find the perfect coaching staff for the team he has atm and where it is in its development. MB has played under MT and knows him very well. He liked him as a coach back when he played and thought that for a team like the habs who had just finished the prior season in 3rd to last place that MT was the perfect coach to bring in a system that this team could win under and make the playoffs. That's all he hired MT for. Not to win the SC because that wasn't the priority.

Im not saying that MT cant or will never be able to bring a team to the SC finals or even win it...he has in the past at least brought a team to that prestigious final. No what Im saying is that maybe MB has other plans when he thinks his team is finally rdy to seriously contend and although Im a true optimist at heart and dearly want the habs to win it this year, I don't think they are rdy yet.

 

[ECWHSWI]

You don't have all the info that the coach has at his disposal for making the decisions he and his coaching staff make. You and I may not agree with these, but he certainly has his reasons and its certainly not just because he LIKES a player's personality more than an others. No. What a coach likes is a player he feels will play the way he thinks he will play and does.

Coaches need to win to keep their jobs in this business and they will use whomever they think will help them win . Do you seriously think that MT doesn't know that DD isn't a first line center? Don't you think he would prefer to have AG playing center instead? Why do you think its not the case? Just personal dislike of AG? I think that he thinks that at this moment in time, DD is the better first line center or until AG proves him wrong. Is this set in stone? Probably not but for the moment its working.

MT is the one who insist on putting DD on the 1st line whenever he can, no one is forcing him to.


there lies the problem.

 

[Daniels45]

Bouillon might have given 100% but he doesn't help the team win games when he goes over 20+ minutes. DD might given 100% but he isn't going to help the team win in the playoffs. Did favoring those two guys help keep them room? BS. If anything, some centers might be wondering wtf these guys did to earn such icetime over them. Eller and Sekac might indeed have their moments of suck but Coach T decided throw them under the bus and him unskilled. An insult, in public, and in direct contradiction to a past actions even in which he sent DD out to get him out of a slump.

Sekac doesn't work hard? How about Eller leading the team in playoffs scoring? Bournival didn't put the effort in?

DD has not done anything of merit to be Pacioretty's permanent linemate. Pacioretty has even proven he can do just as well with Pleks and Galchenyuk, and arguably better.

Again this second guessing the coaching staff when we don't even know 1 tenth the info that they do. They play the players that they think will help them scores goals, defend against and stop goals form being scored on.

This team is far from being the consistent goal scoring team that you think it is. We have one line and have had only one consistent offensive threatening line for several years now and most probably that's due to Patches because whomever you place with him, he still excels to various degrees. So far, for the past 3 years, DD has been the most consistent center when it came to providing MP with scoring opportunities. This year he gave AG a shot at proving himself with MP due to DD going through a long low scoring streak. It worked initially but then flattened out.

A coaches job is to continuously try to find the matches that work on any given night and MT's job in this area is especially hard due to the Hab's extreme streakiness in regards to scoring. When a line goes flat for a certain period of time, all a coach can do is try to reignite it by changing up some players. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. So far its worked several times in regards to who playes center on patches line but our majour offensive issues are not with the first line but with the 3 others. They just cant score on a consistent enough measure.

Seems to me that after Patches, DD, AG, and maybe Pleks and Galagher, the rest of our forwards are too similar. Lots of flash and potential but no finish. We need at least another sniper like Patches. A guy that can consistently be a goal scoring threat.

 

[Daniels45]

MT is the one who insist on putting DD on the 1st line whenever he can, no one is forcing him to.


there lies the problem.

And you think he does that just because? Listen, I'm the first that cant wait to see AG bloom into the player we all hope he will become. I hope to god he ends up being our answer at center on the first line eventually, but alas, after them first 3 or 4 games, the line flattened out for several games until MT changed it up again and then low and behold, the line fired up again.

As a coach, especially here in Montreal, with all the preasure, you cant afford to have your first line go scorless or almost for too many games, not if you want to win on a consistent basis. That's all MT is trying to do. He is trying to win. Its not because he likes one player over another. He's just trying to keep his offensive lines as fired up as possible. If he see one go flat for any extended period of time, he needs to change it up till they light up once again. Its nothing personal against any player.

All in my humble opinion of course

 

[SirClintonPortis]

All coaches get fired one day or almost. Claude Julien got fired just before the playoffs cause NJ's GM didn't think he was reading the team for the offseason the way he thought they should be and look what happened later with Boston.

There are all sorts of coaches and a GM's job is to find the perfect coaching staff for the team he has atm and where it is in its development. MB has played under MT and knows him very well. He liked him as a coach back when he played and thought that for a team like the habs who had just finished the prior season in 3rd to last place that MT was the perfect coach to bring in a system that this team could win under and make the playoffs. That's all he hired MT for. Not to win the SC because that wasn't the priority.

Im not saying that MT cant or will never be able to bring a team to the SC finals or even win it...he has in the past at least brought a team to that prestigious final. No what Im saying is that maybe MB has other plans when he thinks his team is finally rdy to seriously contend and although Im a true optimist at heart and dearly want the habs to win it this year, I don't think they are rdy yet.

This is a false equivalence fallacy. You are trying to deny that whatever happen to the Pittsburgh room didn't exist or matter because Claude Julien also got fired. Two different evironments and circumstances that need to be evaluated on their own merit, not clumped together in the hopes of obscuring evidence.

I notice a complete falsehood: that Therrien coached Bergevin. Maybe in the minors or something, because Therrien did not coach the Pens until 2005-2006 and Bergevin's career was already over by then.


Bergevin is a rookie GM. The potential for mistakes and not seeing the flaws in candidate are hire since it is his first trek on his own into his new job. With everything a clean slate, the interview was the make or break moment for Therrien, and Therrien is certainly a man who can say the right words, but he is far less inconsistent in doing the right things. He can talk the talk, but not walk the walk.