Podcast (Audio) The White Whale - the Mike Gillis Interview

[Peen]

you are right the top two dman on the two weren’t core guys...

yeah and when Myers played more the team collapsed and was going to miss the playoffs when a WORLD PANDEMIC saved them.

myers was on the third pairing with fantenberg in the playoffs and got killed at es playing other team’s bottom six lmao

but minutes!

 

[lawrence]

Gillis doesnt seem to be the man for the job in a rebuilding team, or a declining team..imo..Everybody knows that he stepped into a prime situation when he was hired as Canucks GM.

my ass. The team missed the playoff 2 out of 3 years and were on the path of being an average held together by sedins and luongo if not for gillis coming inz

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

I remember being pretty skeptical when Gillis was first hired. At the time I didn't think Dave Nonis was particularly bad, and I'm not entirely sure even now where the "do-nothing" reputation comes from (if we're only including his time in Vancouver).

A lot of the sentiment regarding Nonis stems from two incidents.

The first being his decision to not trade for Brad Richards in a package that was rumored to include a mixture of players such as Raymond, Bourdon, Edler, Kesler and Schneider. This apparently was a move that ownership wanted and they were angry when he went against them.

The second was the decision to trade for Keith Carney, Eric Weinrich and Sean Brown at the 05/06 trade deadline. LOTS of people were pissed off about that move and Nonis' general inability to land impact players of any kind (hence resulting in the name "No-nuts." Also why I find it ridiculous that a lot of the people whining about disparaging remarks about Benning as being 'mean.' Nonis got far worse IMO, including really unflattering photoshops and vitriol but little was made of that, at the time.)

That Anze Kopitar was looking like a million bucks didn't help, either, as Canucks fans were livid that he was passed up in the draft in lieu of Luc Bourdon, who was taking some time to evolve into an NHL player (and there were real concerns about Bourdon's ankle and skating by some folks.)

I remember a lot of people wanting players like Kovalchuk, Gaborik, Lecavalier and other 'star' names and there was a lot of anger when that didn't happen. Folks weren't happy with the likes of Richard Park, Matt Pettinger, Taylor Pyatt or Jan Bulis coming in, or with Nonis' decision to let Anson Carter walk. There was a belief that he was being too safe and it was costing the team.

I truly do not understand how Francesco, as the owner of this organization, can look at what we had and what we have now and conclude that we are on the right track. Even just purely from a money and results perspective. Truly mind-boggling.

It's really weird, as I'm currently slowly rereading Ice Storm, and the Aquilinis are portrayed as being sort of nouveau-rich owners who were bringing in a wave of progressive and outside the box thinking to the NHL. Then we get this regression into dinosaur thinking which I think happened due to some hardcore Bruins related PTSD from 2011.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

my ass. The team missed the playoff 2 out of 3 years and were on the path of being an average held together by sedins and luongo if not for gillis coming inz

Nobody’s buying that…the fact he’s never been re hired demonstrates that.

 

[lawrence]

Nobody’s buying that…the fact he’s never been re hired demonstrates that.

says the person who said we were a playoff team in 2006? Says the guy who said we played 2 playoff series against 2 Cali teams in 2007.What the f*** even makes you think the out come of the Canucks would have been the same if nonis was still gm?
Insane crap you’re posting.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

says the person who said we were a playoff team in 2006? Says the guy who said we played 2 playoff series against 2 Cali teams in 2007.What the f*** even makes you think the out come of the Canucks would have been the same if nonis was still gm?
Insane crap you’re posting.

So I got a date wrong..they were a 105 point team in 2006-07 that made it to the 2nd round

They would have been a good team whomever took over in 2008…Maybe not as good as Gillis got them ..but a playoff team for sure.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

""Enhancing" a team is so easy, even Mike Gillis could do it."

"So, uh, what's stopping Benning from doing the same?"

* crickets *

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

Didnt Gillis get a 'buy in' from the majority of core players.?.I'm sure that most of that core could have made more money elsewhere, especially on non contending teams...They took less to be on a contender.(looking at what they accepted seems laughable now..Sedins making $6M..?)...This isnt a new concept invented by Gilman/gillis.

All in all though, I would agree with you, that they had a good salary structure

I'd say the landscape for salaries is different now than it was over a decade ago...The star players are making way more now, and everybody else is getting squeezed...

Stars were not making less back then. Naslund signed for 6 million in a 39m cap. That's almost McDavid money at that cap. Brad Richards signed for 7.8m a year later in a 44m cap. That would be 14.5m if it was signed today.

 

[Peter10]

I'd say the landscape for salaries is different now than it was over a decade ago...The star players are making way more now, and everybody else is getting squeezed...

Except in Vancouver where Benning pays bottom 6 guys 3million or more on contracts with term.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Except in Vancouver where Benning pays bottom 6 guys 3million or more on contracts with term.

correct..he gave these guys too much term.($ I could live with)..and now he's getting held to the fire for it..no argument from me.. (I said this the day they were signed)



This is a Gillis thread...too many posters are trying to derail this thread into the current management thread, or a Gillis vs Benning thread.....which is a dead end, because one guy got the beginning of a cycle , and the other guy got the end of one.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

correct..he gave these guys too much term.($ I could live with)..and now he's getting held to the fire for it..no argument from me.. (I said this the day they were signed)



This is a Gillis thread...too many posters are trying to derail this thread into the current management thread, or a Gillis vs Benning thread.....which is a dead end, because one guy got the beginning of a cycle , and the other guy got the end of one.

"Please don't point out the flawed premise in my criticism of Mike Gillis. I should be able to say what I want about him with impunity!"

Gillis did a great job in making the right calls in which players to retain, what contracts to sign them to and what complementary players and depth additions were necessary to push the team forward.

This can be contrasted with any number of other GMs in the NHL who have failed to do the same thing (Dubas in Toronto, the rotating cast of GMs in Edmonton) but I chose to use Benning as an example because everyone should be familiar with him as someone who has utterly failed to "enhance" a team that supposedly has a "great young core."

But acknowledging that getting things just right, like Gillis did, isn't as easy as you're making it out to be would be conceding that you have to give credit to Mike Gillis for something. Which is unacceptable because it doesn't fit the narrative that he was an arrogant jerk who 'lucked into' his job and has been an unemployable bum ever since.

 

[MS]

I remember being pretty skeptical when Gillis was first hired. At the time I didn't think Dave Nonis was particularly bad, and I'm not entirely sure even now where the "do-nothing" reputation comes from (if we're only including his time in Vancouver).

In his first year Nonis brought back (as was expected) the WCE team and made a pile of (perhaps poor) moves to shore up the backend at the deadline for a run. When that failed, he fired the coach and made arguably the greatest trade in franchise history to bring in Luongo and ended up with a miraculous 100-something point season and second round of the playoffs. The third season perhaps he let the team down by not following up on a successful season, but as I recall the idea was the team was heading into an offseason with an abundance of cap space (which ultimately gave room for Gillis to throw $10Mx2 at Sundin), and this would take the team forward with Luongo as our guy.

The only significant move Nonis made in 3 years was when Keenan dropped the deal of a lifetime into his lap.

Otherwise he basically just kept the same team and made bad moves picking at the fringes of it.

Basically he did nothing ahead of 05-06 and then watched as the team went down in flames with Naslund and Bertuzzi as a cancer and a tuned-out coach. Did nothing, except some very bad deadline moves. Then cried when he actually fired the coach 6 months too late.

06-07 he made the Luongo move and cashed some of Jovanovski leaving into Mitchell and the team overachieved on the back of one of the best goaltending seasons in NHL history.

Summer 2007 it was obvious the team needed more scoring. Everyone knew it. Instead he did absolutely nothing, downgraded in the bottom-6, signed Aaron Miller to inexplicably box Alex Edler out of the roster and watched the team go down in flames again. And again made a series of crap deadline deals.

He was like a little kid in over his head from day 1. Indecisive, confused, scared to make big moves and meaningful changes and instead cheaped out on bad fixes that bled draft picks. This meant that he didn't make any moves that were *really* bad long-term but instead it was basically a rudderless ship for 3 years.

Agreed with your Gillis take from the rest of your post.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

He was like a little kid in over his head from day 1. Indecisive, confused, scared to make big moves and meaningful changes and instead cheaped out on bad fixes that bled draft picks.

Nonis did find his big boy pants when he got the top job in Toronto, and based on his track record there, we should thank our lucky stars he was too gunshy to go big as Canucks GM.

 

[MS]

Nonis did find his big boy pants when he got the top job in Toronto, and based on his track record there, we should thank our lucky stars he was too gunshy to go big as Canucks GM.

Absolutely. Was a different sort of failure in Toronto.

He was a decent "contract guy" AGM who had no business as an NHL General Manager. No leadership skills, could not evaluate players, could not build competitive rosters.

 

[hlrsr]

A lot of the sentiment regarding Nonis stems from two incidents.

...

Yeah, it was early in the cap era and a lot of fans at the time just hadn't come to grips with the fact that teams just weren't trading that much anymore and it wasn't so easy to just pick up players to improve your team. I recall a lot of sentiment that Nonis just needed to "make a move!" but there really wasn't much going on in terms of trades in the new cap era.

I think fans have come a long way now from clamouring for replacing the Sedins with Gaborik and .. Demitra? Cammalleri?

Now, I'm not saying there wasn't anything he could have done at all, or that he was doing a great job (especially in hindsight), but it was really that one offseason where he stood pat and waited for cap space to clear in the following season to start building the new core around Luongo, and that did help Gillis out.

I remember specifically that Gillis pandered to fan sentiment with his talk about "bold moves" etc. While I agree that the trajectory of the twins, Kesler, etc. changed drastically under Gillis, I think it is telling that there really weren't major structural changes to the core despite Gillis initial claims that we were "not close."

Anyway, he was still the right man for the job, and would take him back in a heartbeat.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

The only significant move Nonis made in 3 years was when Keenan dropped the deal of a lifetime into his lap.

Otherwise he basically just kept the same team and made bad moves picking at the fringes of it.

Basically he did nothing ahead of 05-06 and then watched as the team went down in flames with Naslund and Bertuzzi as a cancer and a tuned-out coach. Did nothing, except some very bad deadline moves. Then cried when he actually fired the coach 6 months too late.

06-07 he made the Luongo move and cashed some of Jovanovski leaving into Mitchell and the team overachieved on the back of one of the best goaltending seasons in NHL history.

Summer 2007 it was obvious the team needed more scoring. Everyone knew it. Instead he did absolutely nothing, downgraded in the bottom-6, signed Aaron Miller to inexplicably box Alex Edler out of the roster and watched the team go down in flames again. And again made a series of crap deadline deals.

He was like a little kid in over his head from day 1. Indecisive, confused, scared to make big moves and meaningful changes and instead cheaped out on bad fixes that bled draft picks. This meant that he didn't make any moves that were *really* bad long-term but instead it was basically a rudderless ship for 3 years.

Agreed with your Gillis take from the rest of your post.

this is my memory of nonis too, he was just watching his team age into nothing.

i just remember his asset management totally confusing. the 2006 and 2007 trade deadlines were benningesque.

2nd (38), 2nd (46), 3rd (77), 4th (107), plus downgrading a 2007 4th (115) for a 5th (145) for noronen, carney, sean brown, eric weinrich's corpse, and tommy santala.

here was the 2006 draft — 2006 NHL Entry Draft | Hockey-Reference.com

it wasn't the deepest draft in the world, but in the range of the two second rounders he gave up were kulemin, petry, lucic, and anisimov. if you want to ask where our young blood was in 2011, boston picked up lucic and marchand at 50 and 71 of that draft.

the 2007 deadline wasn't quite as spectacular, but the overpays were insane. a 2nd (61) and a 4th (101) for sopel and 2nd (56) for 35 year old smolinski.

here's the 2007 draft: 2007 NHL Entry Draft | Hockey-Reference.com

we had no picks between 33 (taylor ellington) and 145 (some guy named messier). the 2nd we gave to the kings became wayne simmonds. but also jamie benn went between our picks.

idk, just with a surplus of draft picks you can take a flyer on toolsy guys from your own backyard like benn or lucic.


but actually the most confusing nonis deadline was 2008. matt cooke for matt pettinger. i was like, why? it was time to cut bait on matt cooke, but he's a good player and despite the controversy an in-demand role player. you can't get a third round pick for him?

 

[MS]

this is my memory of nonis too, he was just watching his team age into nothing.

i just remember his asset management totally confusing. the 2006 and 2007 trade deadlines were benningesque.

2nd (38), 2nd (46), 3rd (77), 4th (107), plus downgrading a 2007 4th (115) for a 5th (145) for noronen, carney, sean brown, eric weinrich's corpse, and tommy santala.

here was the 2006 draft — 2006 NHL Entry Draft | Hockey-Reference.com

it wasn't the deepest draft in the world, but in the range of the two second rounders he gave up were kulemin, petry, lucic, and anisimov. if you want to ask where our young blood was in 2011, boston picked up lucic and marchand at 50 and 71 of that draft.

the 2007 deadline wasn't quite as spectacular, but the overpays were insane. a 2nd (61) and a 4th (101) for sopel and 2nd (56) for 35 year old smolinski.

here's the 2007 draft: 2007 NHL Entry Draft | Hockey-Reference.com

we had no picks between 33 (taylor ellington) and 145 (some guy named messier). the 2nd we gave to the kings became wayne simmonds. but also jamie benn went between our picks.

idk, just with a surplus of draft picks you can take a flyer on toolsy guys from your own backyard like benn or lucic.


but actually the most confusing nonis deadline was 2008. matt cooke for matt pettinger. i was like, why? it was time to cut bait on matt cooke, but he's a good player and despite the controversy an in-demand role player. you can't get a third round pick for him?

He just ... didn't seem to know what he was doing or what was happening with the team or how to go about improving it.

2005 offseason you can understand going back to the WCE for another look (although going back to Cloutier was insanity). But by December you could see huge problems with the team. Naslund and Bertuzzi were cancerous anchors goalsucking on their own little planet and Crawford was spent as the head coach (and refused to give the Sedins the icetime they icetime they deserved). The team *badly* needed a shakeup mid-season. And he did nothing, and looked on confused as we spiraled down the standings. And then that awful deadline where he picked up every bad defender in the NHL to the extent that a rookie Bieksa - who was excelling - was forced to play forward to close out the season to accommodate Eric Weinrich.

But 2007 was worse. We'd just had a surprisingly successful season on the backs of Luongo and a better coach and a Sedin breakout, but *everyone* knew the team couldn't score. And he did nothing. Let our top two penalty killers in Bulis/Green walk and replaced them with absolute garbage in Ritchie/Isbister. Signed Aaron Miller for no apparent reason when that money needed to go up front. Big offensive signing was ... Ryan Shannon? And you had the same effect we saw in 20-21 where you could see the team sag when they felt let down by management and knew they'd taken a step back. And Nonis had a whole season to try fixing things and literally did nothing, and just like in 05-06 sounded confused and indecisive whenever he was interviewed. And then at the deadline he trades a #2 pick for a washed-up Smolinski as his big move. And gives Cooke away.

Basically he had 1 good week as Canuck GM when he jumped on the Luongo trade when Keenan lost his mind, and did a good job with the Mitchell signing.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

He just ... didn't seem to know what he was doing or what was happening with the team or how to go about improving it.

2005 offseason you can understand going back to the WCE for another look (although going back to Cloutier was insanity). But by December you could see huge problems with the team. Naslund and Bertuzzi were cancerous anchors goalsucking on their own little planet and Crawford was spent as the head coach (and refused to give the Sedins the icetime they icetime they deserved). The team *badly* needed a shakeup mid-season. And he did nothing, and looked on confused as we spiraled down the standings. And then that awful deadline where he picked up every bad defender in the NHL to the extent that a rookie Bieksa - who was excelling - was forced to play forward to close out the season to accommodate Eric Weinrich.

But 2007 was worse. We'd just had a surprisingly successful season on the backs of Luongo and a better coach and a Sedin breakout, but *everyone* knew the team couldn't score. And he did nothing. Let our top two penalty killers in Bulis/Green walk and replaced them with absolute garbage in Ritchie/Isbister. Signed Aaron Miller for no apparent reason when that money needed to go up front. Big offensive signing was ... Ryan Shannon? And you had the same effect we saw in 20-21 where you could see the team sag when they felt let down by management and knew they'd taken a step back. And Nonis had a whole season to try fixing things and literally did nothing, and just like in 05-06 sounded confused and indecisive whenever he was interviewed. And then at the deadline he trades a #2 pick for a washed-up Smolinski as his big move. And gives Cooke away.

this is nonis in a nutshell

August 3, 2005: BRENT SOPEL Traded by the Vancouver Canucks to the New York Islanders for 2nd round draft pick in 2006 (later traded to Anaheim - Anaheim selected Bryce Swan).

...

February 26, 2007: BRENT SOPEL Traded by the Los Angeles Kings to the Vancouver Canucks for 2nd round draft pick in 2007 (previously acquired, Los Angeles selected Wayne Simmonds) and 4th round draft pick in 2008 (later traded to Buffalo - Buffalo selected Justin Jokinen).

there was just no direction, just constantly chasing having something to chase

but less damaging in the long run than seven years of benning chasing as hard as he can

 

[F A N]

The second was the decision to trade for Keith Carney, Eric Weinrich and Sean Brown at the 05/06 trade deadline. LOTS of people were pissed off about that move and Nonis' general inability to land impact players of any kind (hence resulting in the name "No-nuts." Also why I find it ridiculous that a lot of the people whining about disparaging remarks about Benning as being 'mean.' Nonis got far worse IMO, including really unflattering photoshops and vitriol but little was made of that, at the time.)

Good post overall, but I don't remember there being that many posts about Nonis that were "mean." For sure it was not as constant. I would also say that the culture has changed. Language that was seen as acceptable 10+ years ago is not seen as or should be seen as acceptable today. The "he's a public figure" reasoning used to defend the use of personal attacks is not considered reasonable. I guess it could be relative. Perhaps some prefer to be called "Dim Dave" or a "Moron" than be be called "No Nuts."

The Canucks could of had 3 second round picks in the 2017 draft if Nonis didn't make the deadline deals. They could have missed on all those picks of course.

I remember a lot of people wanting players like Kovalchuk, Gaborik, Lecavalier and other 'star' names and there was a lot of anger when that didn't happen. Folks weren't happy with the likes of Richard Park, Matt Pettinger, Taylor Pyatt or Jan Bulis coming in, or with Nonis' decision to let Anson Carter walk. There was a belief that he was being too safe and it was costing the team.

The Canucks lacked core players up front. During Anson Carter's season here, we had a legit top 6. Two years later look at the points leaders in 07-8. The Sedins had 75+ point seasons followed by an aging Naslund and then a 37 point Ryan Kesler. An aging Morrison was on the outs. So of course adding an offensive star to the team was desirable.

 

[MS]

this is nonis in a nutshell

August 3, 2005: Traded by the Vancouver Canucks to the New York Islanders for 2nd round draft pick in 2006 (later traded to Anaheim - Anaheim selected Bryce Swan).

...

February 26, 2007: Traded by the Los Angeles Kings to the Vancouver Canucks for 2nd round draft pick in 2007 (previously acquired, Los Angeles selected Wayne Simmonds) and 4th round draft pick in 2008 (later traded to Buffalo - Buffalo selected Justin Jokinen).

there was just no direction, just constantly chasing having something to chase

but less damaging in the long run than seven years of benning chasing as hard as he can

It was just ... insipid.

There was no direction. No real plan. No leadership. No boldness.

Outside of the Luongo deal the biggest move he made in 3 years was a #2 pick for a bad deadline acquisition.

Like you say, spinning in circles.

On one hand, he was incredibly conservative about making large moves. Which was good in the bigger picture because it avoided losing major assets in poor moves. But he was also extremely reactionary about trading #2-4 round picks in overpayments for quick 'cheap' fixes, which led to a major pick bleed in the 2006-08 drafts. We only had 6 of our 12 selections in the top 4 rounds of those drafts despite missing the playoffs 2 of those 3 years.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

I remember one popular photoshop of an obese man laying on a beach with Nonis' head and a box of Timbits Photoshopped in. I might actually have that on a hard drive somewhere.

There were others, as well, but there was a lot of disdain for Nonis.

And I'm not trying to excuse Nonis' general inaction. The offense, in particular, needed to be addressed in some way beyond his ultra-conservative approach. But, conversely, a lot of the 'ideas' being floated by folks were just plain unrealistic or would have crippled the franchise.

A lot of these also involved getting rid of the Sedins, despite their emergence as top tier talent.

 

[F A N]

It was just ... insipid.

There was no direction. No real plan. No leadership. No boldness.

Outside of the Luongo deal the biggest move he made in 3 years was a #2 pick for a bad deadline acquisition.

Like you say, spinning in circles.

On one hand, he was incredibly conservative about making large moves. Which was good in the bigger picture because it avoided losing major assets in poor moves. But he was also extremely reactionary about trading #2-4 round picks in overpayments for quick 'cheap' fixes, which led to a major pick bleed in the 2006-08 drafts. We only had 6 of our 12 selections in the top 4 rounds of those drafts despite missing the playoffs 2 of those 3 years.

Let's not forget his big offseason signing Marc Choinard.

I think Nonis may have been better off taking over a rebuilding team rather than Burke's. Had he not traded away picks, he could have done something similar to Cheveldayoff where he would do nothing but draft and develop and the only free agent signings he would make are 1 year deals.

 

[racerjoe]

The only significant move Nonis made in 3 years was when Keenan dropped the deal of a lifetime into his lap.

Otherwise he basically just kept the same team and made bad moves picking at the fringes of it.

Basically he did nothing ahead of 05-06 and then watched as the team went down in flames with Naslund and Bertuzzi as a cancer and a tuned-out coach. Did nothing, except some very bad deadline moves. Then cried when he actually fired the coach 6 months too late.

06-07 he made the Luongo move and cashed some of Jovanovski leaving into Mitchell and the team overachieved on the back of one of the best goaltending seasons in NHL history.

Summer 2007 it was obvious the team needed more scoring. Everyone knew it. Instead he did absolutely nothing, downgraded in the bottom-6, signed Aaron Miller to inexplicably box Alex Edler out of the roster and watched the team go down in flames again. And again made a series of crap deadline deals.

He was like a little kid in over his head from day 1. Indecisive, confused, scared to make big moves and meaningful changes and instead cheaped out on bad fixes that bled draft picks. This meant that he didn't make any moves that were *really* bad long-term but instead it was basically a rudderless ship for 3 years.

Agreed with your Gillis take from the rest of your post.

my opinion of Nonis has really changed from way back then. Overall I totally agree with the above.

however I do think that first year he deserves a bit of a pass. It was fresh of the lockout, and we had been a contender that ran into bad luck. Nadlund getting hurt and the bertuuzzi stuff. He had to give that core a chance and had to maneuver this team into a lower cap. It’s forgivable and understandable to do nothing that first season and even try some of those bad trades. They were bad trades. I just think at least at that moment you had to give those guys a chance.

after that oh totally correct.