The "We have competent management" appreciation thread

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
1,941
I'll bite, and even try to wear your condescending tone for a moment

Let me splain somethin to ya.

Companies have a board of directors.

You don't just come into to a new company and say, "Hey I know what to do! I read on HF boards we need a total rebuild!" If you do any competent board will ask you what you base the opinion on and want data to back it up.

What you do instead is learn the real issues, create a plan to resolve the issues and get the backing of the stakeholders. This takes time and is what Shanahan did. From there it becomes execution of the plan.

Hiring a competent management team takes time. Having no GM at the draft didn't seem to hurt us. Which is preferred, no GM at the draft, or the wrong GM just for the draft.

What is your baseline for competence? 9th place? A Cup in the first year of a rebuild? Increased revenues? Being in second last place during a tear down? You've told us that to you, last place is incompetent, but haven't told us what competency in a rebuild looks like. Care to Splain that to me? If you can show us what a competent rebuild looks like, it will go a long way in showing how this team is not meeting those expectations.

Restructuring takes time and the first step of maximizing value for assets you have to release in order to restructure takes skill. In my opinion the tear down is being done skillfully. The management team has shown competence for the tear down. They aren7t looking for quick fixes. They are getting value for rentals, they are getting what they can for pieces that have to go and then maximizing value of cap space by taking on contracts for futures. To me this is competent.

They have yet to show competence for the rebuild, but that is what the next few years will tell us. Drafting, developing and icing a winning product is the goal, but it certainly can't be expected to happen over night. Just look at the Hawks, they certainly took some time and got lucky. But being lucky is easier if you have skill and competency behind it.

Considering what the "sell" was

"We have to tear this down, remove all chance of playoff revenues and possible ratings drops"

Try telling a board that your plan will lower profits
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
87,099
12,290
Leafs Home Board
Oh for fact

but i'll make it a deadly duo of Burke/Nonis , utterly incompetent.

Agreed

Incompetency of management is defined as trading away your top draft picks (mortgaging the future) signing UFAs to overpaid inflationary contracts, and then dealing for vets (while overpaying them), all spending to the cap ceiling, but taking your team on a 18-wheeler over the cliff ride that results in bottom 5 overall finishes, and ending in management firings for utter failure, and team mired at the bottom.

Competency is defined as inheriting said mess, understanding and evaluating your team correctly in talent assessment, recognizing a scorched earth ultimatum (in both management across the board in all aspects, and player personnel) is your only option. Followed by cleaning house and accumulating as many future assets (picks and prospects) to begin your draft rebuild and development plan, and understanding the consequences in the standings of those actions to repair the damage of past incompetence is your only true option.

We're currently aboard the sane competence Train after watching the crazy incompetent Train take us completely off the rails for the previous 7 years.

All aboard everyone and enjoy the ride. Toot Toot !!!
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
1,941
Agreed

Incompetency of management is defined as trading away your top draft picks (mortgaging the future) signing UFAs to overpaid inflationary contracts, and then dealing for vets (while overpaying them), all spending to the cap ceiling, but taking your team on a 18-wheeler over the cliff ride that results in bottom 5 overall finishes, and ending in management firings for utter failure, and team mired at the bottom.

Competency is defined as inheriting said mess, understanding and evaluating your team correctly in talent assessment, recognizing a scorched earth ultimatum (in both management across the board in all aspects, and player personnel) is your only option. Followed by cleaning house and accumulating as many future assets (picks and prospects) to begin your draft rebuild and development plan, and understanding the consequences in the standings of those actions to repair the damage of past incompetence is your only true option.

We're currently aboard the sane competence Train after watching the crazy incompetent Train take us completely off the rails for the previous 7 years.

All aboard everyone and enjoy the ride. Toot Toot !!!

Well, you know me Mess

I looked at the entire package , like our contracts and cap

prospects and all player growth "can we win with this"?

picks,buyouts flying out the door

and I graded us as being in the "worst market position " in the entire league

The have done the impossible IMO

They managed to save an entire organisation(on all fronts) that had already driven the 18 wheeler( in every aspect ,cap,prospects,long term contracts) over the cliff and somehow superman it to safety.
 

rrc1967

Registered User
Jan 9, 2014
2,290
6
Houston Texas
but the capologist is seriously earning his pennies, by weaving in and out of the CBA. JFJ didn't have one (that I know of) and Loiselle s-u-c-k-e-d at it.

the leafs have had someone dedicated to working out the cap since it came out. I believe Jeff Jackson was doing that role in the JFJ / Fletcher years.

however the capologists just advises on the numbers, they don't set policy.

it was weird to see people blame the Cap on the person in charge of maintaining those numbers. it would be like stating it's the CFO's fault for the direction of a company which was set by the CEO.

and it's really not that tough either, keep in mind that the NHL has a "private" web app that each time sees their current / future cap
expenditures.

for all the derision in here, JFJ laid the future groundwork for alot of good things to happen in leafland. the new training facilities, moving the marlies, getting the marlies and leafs synchronized on both coaching and training, increased scouting,etc,etc. however at the time, management was still dazzled by big playoff profits that were being generated before the cap. Therefore, JFJ was handcuffed.

as far as the prospect pool? well, yes, when you suck like toronto has, you should have a good prospect pool. that just goes with the nature of
finishing near last for the last decade.

and it's also a little harder to judge because Toronto hasn't been promoting as quickly as other teams. so the prospects in the AHL will tend to look far more attractive.

it's also considerably harder to judge how a pool will transition up to the NHL. while a PPG in the AHL, or even a 2 PPG pace in the OHL sounds amazing, that translates down 60% / 30% respectively to the NHL level on average.

This management's competency will be when they actually start do to do something to get out of the challenging for a playoff spot, to challenging for a cup.

Right now? it's a little premature.

which is why i did the first couple of sentances, because this has happened with EVERY new management. from Fletcher, Burke, to Nonis, to now Shanahan/Lou.
 
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Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
70,280
9,323
the leafs have had someone dedicated to working out the cap since it came out. I believe Jeff Jackson was doing that role in the JFJ / Fletcher years.

however the capologists just advises on the numbers, they don't set policy.

right. they advise on the numbers. the manage the budget. some capologists also do the negotiating and help draft the contracts. they help advise the GM/AGM in how to make moves to constantly keep them cap-compliant.

And until Pirdham. kinda sucked at their job. If you have an accountant who sucked at the accounting at their job - you'd lay the blame either. It's not just the numbers either, it's all the little nuances etc, that we don't know.


for all the derision in here, JFJ laid the future groundwork for alot of good things to happen in leafland. the new training facilities, moving the marlies, getting the marlies and leafs synchronized on both coaching and training, increased scouting,etc,etc. however at the time, management was still dazzled by big playoff profits that were being generated before the cap. Therefore, JFJ was handcuffed.

Yes. JFJ did do a lot of nice things - which some people do give him credit for. But you don't get a cookie for partially doing your job right. and there comes a time where I think the "handcuff" just becomes a big excuse. everyone's mandate in the NHL is to make the playoffs for the most part.

That doesn't excuse JFJ for making bad trades. Or signing bad contracts. There are a lot of teams back then, and currently who barely have any futures at all (hi, Rangers), but - they still trade very well, and they sign well. JFJ didn't. that's not on the Teachers - that's on JFJ.

I give him all the credit in the world for the good that he did (and I don't really remember a lot of people being "praise be to JFJ" when he got hired, a lot of people saw what it was at the time, Peddie won and it was a way to push Quinn out (which - it did), and a LOT of people wanted Tambellini (lets just take a big breath and say thanks that didn't happen).

Same with Burke. I loathe him (on a hockey sense) - but the little few things that he did here, I give him credit for. But he doesn't get excused for making horrendous decisions, based on "he was handcuffed". he drafted crappy.

being "handcuffed" doesn't mean you can't draft well. being "handcuffed" doesn't mean you can't trade well.


as far as the prospect pool? well, yes, when you suck like toronto has, you should have a good prospect pool. that just goes with the nature of finishing near last for the last decade.

and it's also a little harder to judge because Toronto hasn't been promoting as quickly as other teams. so the prospects in the AHL will tend to look far more attractive.

and that's the thing. we didn't have a strong prospect pool. not for years. we drafted horrendously (when we had the picks) and we made poor decisions with them. I am not saying what so ever that the guys Hunter picked out are amazing and trump all- but at the same time, (and i say this for someone who has read z-e-r-o of hockey futures anything) - the leafs prospect pool, simply based on skill has been commented on by a lot of other people, not just in Toronto, but throughout the league, throughout scouting (though it's twiter, take your pinch of salt).


it's also considerably harder to judge how a pool will transition up to the NHL. while a PPG in the AHL, or even a 2 PPG pace in the OHL sounds amazing, that translates down 60% / 30% respectively to the NHL level on average.

I commented on that. just not with numbers. they aren't going to hit on everyone. and I think a lot of people can acknowledge that. But - I do think the process of ensuring they have more than the league minimum of picks. (something that we rarely had) and drafting flat out skill - not "tall" people or "tough" people, and all the other stuff we focused on the last five years - gives us a better chance of being lucky v. praying to goodness that we luck out somehow.

vs. drafting skill each and every round.



This management's competency will be when they actually start do to do something to get out of the challenging for a playoff spot, to challenging for a cup.

Right now? it's a little premature.

which is why i did the first couple of sentances, because this has happened with EVERY new management. from Fletcher, Burke, to Nonis, to now Shanahan/Lou.

I find it very interesting how people feel that it is "easy" to tear this down. I - personally feel that it is really difficult. I mean - yes. it's "easy" in the sense that you can put a sign up and say "open for business" but the prime example I have to use in this situation is look at the Sabres. they went from playoffs to being Buffalo in five years - and in that time span they had to sell off a lot of pieces.

We sold off most of our massive contracts in less than a calendar year (Feb 26th, to Feb 9th - leaving only two - one is almost always on LTIR, so it doesn't impact our cap, and one is actually quiet decent - and both contracts are up next year). that is four whole years less than buffalo. and we only retained 1.2 million out of it. (where as - before most people assumed that we would have to retain heavily on Dion - didn't. retain heavily on Clarkson - didn't)

Everything that management is saying - matches their actions. in every aspect. I truthfully don't remember this at all in the JFJ era - or in the Burke/Nonis era.

they - as of right now
sign properly - this will be revisited as they deal with more complicated players, and tricker situations - it's a fluid thing.

they trade smartly - again. fluid thing - but they have a bucket full of picks, a boat load of cap space (in a sinking cap world), and a lot of expiring contracts to play with - again, very smart considering where we were a year ago - and their trades match where we are right now with where we are supposed to be - not getting Gerber to push us from last to middle ground etc.


they draft* smartly. again - my personal view is that drafting for skill all the time trumps drafting for some ideology (ie: truculence). it's still luck base, etc and we'd have to see how it pans out in draft2 years and so forth - but for a prospect base that have very little skill - we've got a lot of it now - we need to see how it translates later. but it opens up for more trades that, I don't think we would be able to make later.

all the drama and back-room crap is gone (or very very quiet)- you see that with the players themselves, you don't "hear" anything - and that's existed since Quinn/Peddie/Dryden. Everyone's oar is rowing the exact same way, towards the exact same goal. No one contradicts each other. no one is throwing people under the bus, all aspects that have happened in previous regimes.

that - in itself is different than anything I've seen since I've been a fan.

there are many, many steps between being good and winning a cup - but judging people's ability shouldn't just be on the "end goal" that's just my personal view anyway. There is a reason why people get reviewed at work every year. but to each their own.
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,382
33,269
St. Paul, MN
Re comparisons to past management regimes:

There are already tangible differences - Burke Nonis nor JFJ ever dismantled the team like the current group has. We've seen a tangible difference at the draft - ie skill over grit especially in the later rounds, hiring of a stats department, ect.

So yes, although the team has yet to see the fruits of management's labour we are still on a "wait and see" period, but all the signs seem to point towards progress.
 

PuckMagi

Registered User
Apr 13, 2013
5,461
1,968
Toronto
I like a lot of what the new management has done... but I hate how they refused to play the kids all year... they signed a bunch of bad players to 1 year contracts and then didn't trade them.

I wouldn't have minded losing if our team had guys like Leivo and Leipsic on the squad... but it was beyond frustrating watching Grabner play on the top line for most of the year. It just makes no sense. Give some of our young guys a shot and see if they have what it takes... or at least just to give them a year of NHL experience. We had a bunch of really good Marlies players... but instead we had to watch Froese and Grabner play every night. It was just brutal to watch.
 

HellasLEAF

'93 to Infinity
Sep 14, 2006
15,345
1,800
This all started when Lieweke brought in Shanny. And Shanny has made one good decision after another. It's such a great feeling to not be thought of as the dummy's or the laughing stock brain trust, but to have respect and they are earning it with this long awaited rebuild. It's a great time to be a Leaf fan.

watching these young Leaf future stars develop and win together is gonna be a joy.
 

Unbiased

Registered User
Oct 31, 2015
317
0
Id love to see the plan some of these people wouldve had... Keep phil and trade nylander for eric staal. Then in 5 years when the team is 18th in the league for the 5th time and phil is 33 and declining they wonder what went wrong.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
79,369
54,895
Tim Lieweke kind of deserves some praise for setting the parameters for Shanahan's presidency as well as identifying the problems with Kessel and company while he was here. It really set the tone for something else to take root.
 

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
70,280
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Tim Lieweke kind of deserves some praise for setting the parameters for Shanahan's presidency as well as identifying the problems with Kessel and company while he was here. It really set the tone for something else to take root.

yeah, but he was also the one who wanted Nonis to sign him + Dion too.
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
1,941
I like a lot of what the new management has done... but I hate how they refused to play the kids all year... they signed a bunch of bad players to 1 year contracts and then didn't trade them.

I wouldn't have minded losing if our team had guys like Leivo and Leipsic on the squad... but it was beyond frustrating watching Grabner play on the top line for most of the year. It just makes no sense. Give some of our young guys a shot and see if they have what it takes... or at least just to give them a year of NHL experience. We had a bunch of really good Marlies players... but instead we had to watch Froese and Grabner play every night. It was just brutal to watch.

So I guess you don't believe in managements development process.

Well that's a shame.

Sounds like "for your entertainment, profit" matters more then doing whats right, heh you sound like our previous owners.
 

Craig Button

The C is for Coward - Brad Marchand 2024
Jul 28, 2015
3,519
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Leaf Nation Torontonistan
666 was right. you do know what the definition of tanked is ..right? intentionally designing the team so that they will capture a high draft pick. Chicago really didn't.

Chicago retooled really - and got lucky with the lottery.

like the poster stated, you can really get a sense for management's position about the trades they make, which you ignored.

666 was wrong.

Teams in the past Tanked by signing players passed their prime.

Theoron Fleury was passed his prime and was well known to be a cancer in the dressing room.

Kahbibulin was passed his prime and wasn't the Khabibulin from the 90's.

If the Leafs signed Danny Heatley, Scott Gomez and Alexander Semin are you and 666 fool enough to believe we aren't tanking???

Chicago TANKED!!!!!

They signed garbage traded garbage to fool fans to come watch the games.

Chicago drafted most of the core and signed Havlat and Hossa.
That is when things turned around. Which was MY POINT!!!!

THAT is WHEN the TANKING was OVER!!!!

The LEAFS signed Shawn Matthias, Brad Boyes, Pierre-Alexandre Parenteau to compete and help the tank.

The Leafs traded Kessel & Phaneuf to help the TANK and
help build the future core.

The thing with 666.
He would complain that the Leafs are a bubble team,will forever be a bubble team, aren't bad enough to tank and will stay mediocre forever.

He was wrong. We tanked and drafted Marner. We are tanking now and who knows who we draft.

666 is now against Tanking and we should compete to be a bubble team and stay mediocre.

He only plays Devil's Advocate which is why his username is 666.

Oh BTW, Khabs also played for the Oilers. I guess that means the Oilers didn't TANK?????
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
79,369
54,895
yeah, but he was also the one who wanted Nonis to sign him + Dion too.

Fair enough, but for an example, I heard an interesting report that Nonis fought to not re-sign Cody Franson last season, whereas Shanahan wanted to re-sign him to a long term deal... so even those vilified players have contributed to some good!
 

Morguee

Registered User
Jan 22, 2010
3,002
184
so this draft is going to be the hunter show primarily then? I know last year it was the dubas/hunter show at the draft

There was talk that a WHL Owner/GM would be joining the organization after the year was done. I cannot remember his name or what the status was but he was suppose to be another top talent scout.

Maybe someone can decipher my ramblings to figure out who I am trying to think of and current status.
 

Ari91

Registered User
Nov 24, 2010
9,900
30
Toronto
I like a lot of what the new management has done... but I hate how they refused to play the kids all year... they signed a bunch of bad players to 1 year contracts and then didn't trade them.

I wouldn't have minded losing if our team had guys like Leivo and Leipsic on the squad... but it was beyond frustrating watching Grabner play on the top line for most of the year. It just makes no sense. Give some of our young guys a shot and see if they have what it takes... or at least just to give them a year of NHL experience. We had a bunch of really good Marlies players... but instead we had to watch Froese and Grabner play every night. It was just brutal to watch.

The kids weren't given full time positions on the team because management felt it was important to not rush their development. They may be talented but it's still important for young players to be insulated and placed in an environment to succeed. Before they can graduate to the big club, the kids should show that they are ready (mental readiness is just as important as being skillfully ready to make the transition) and management needs to provide solid vets to help ease the kids into the new environment of the league.

Edmonton's woes aren't just that they have never bothered to build their defense or solidify their goalie position, their struggles are also in part that they have rushed the development of some of their players - and we're talking about first overalls and top 10 picks here. Management has a responsibility to make the transition between leagues as seamless as possible to give young talent the best chance to succeed.
 

Discoverer

Registered User
Apr 11, 2012
10,855
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So I guess you don't believe in managements development process.

Well that's a shame.

Sounds like "for your entertainment, profit" matters more then doing whats right, heh you sound like our previous owners.

Plus, they were never going to trade all those cheap pending UFAs. The idea behind bringing in multiple cheap veterans, beyond the obvious advantage of giving the kids more development time, is that it gives you the option to trade some later on.

If you bring in one guy and he struggles, you may end up getting nothing. If you bring in five guys, the chances that one or more of them will build enough value to bring something back in a trade are much, much higher. So that's what they did, and it made perfect sense to give Parenteau, Grabner, Boyes, Spaling and Matthias lots of ice time in hopes that their value would be high enough to bring back a worthwhile return at the deadline.
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
1,941
BAhahahahaha no fat fill on Team USA roster yet and no dion with us?



hahahahahahaha ya 666 your right, 15 million in cap tied up in them, we shoulda have gutted it out?:laugh:
 

hotpaws

Registered User
Nov 21, 2009
21,740
6,338
BAhahahahaha no fat fill on Team USA roster yet and no dion with us?

hahahahahahaha ya 666 your right, 15 million in cap tied up in them, we shoulda have gutted it out?:laugh:

yea i'm shocked Babs didn't insist on that elite leader "Dion the Goat" being named to the roster.:laugh: .
 
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Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
70,280
9,323
Fair enough, but for an example, I heard an interesting report that Nonis fought to not re-sign Cody Franson last season, whereas Shanahan wanted to re-sign him to a long term deal... so even those vilified players have contributed to some good!

yah I brought that up too. like I said, i'm not a cow about this - I'll give people credit, when credit is due - and I'm not going to say that Shanahan is perfect (he isn't).


i dunno - maybe there was just something about Cody that he liked (ie: "wanting to be a Leaf, how he acted in the dressing room etc") sort of like how they are with Hunwick. not the "best" choice - but something to keep the defense okay. not gonna lie - woulda been sore about it, because I love Franny, but not for the money he was commanding.
 

Rants Mulliniks

Registered User
Jun 22, 2008
23,071
6,136
Agreed

Incompetency of management is defined as trading away your top draft picks (mortgaging the future) signing UFAs to overpaid inflationary contracts, and then dealing for vets (while overpaying them), all spending to the cap ceiling, but taking your team on a 18-wheeler over the cliff ride that results in bottom 5 overall finishes, and ending in management firings for utter failure, and team mired at the bottom.

Competency is defined as inheriting said mess, understanding and evaluating your team correctly in talent assessment, recognizing a scorched earth ultimatum (in both management across the board in all aspects, and player personnel) is your only option. Followed by cleaning house and accumulating as many future assets (picks and prospects) to begin your draft rebuild and development plan, and understanding the consequences in the standings of those actions to repair the damage of past incompetence is your only true option.

We're currently aboard the sane competence Train after watching the crazy incompetent Train take us completely off the rails for the previous 7 years.

All aboard everyone and enjoy the ride. Toot Toot !!!

So why were you FOR signing multiple vets after the shortened season and not promoting youth as some suggested should be the course of action?
 

burpsalot

Registered User
Feb 12, 2015
5,633
0
Fair enough, but for an example, I heard an interesting report that Nonis fought to not re-sign Cody Franson last season, whereas Shanahan wanted to re-sign him to a long term deal... so even those vilified players have contributed to some good!

I heard it a little differently.

I really doubt the angle that "Shanahan wanted to re-sign him to a long term deal." If that were the case he had every opportunity to do it July 1st & onward but appears as though they had no interest, even at a reduced cost.

Then again Simmons said it, so it must be true.
 

HamiltonNHL

Parity era hockey is just puck luck + draft luck
Jan 4, 2012
21,389
12,071
In Lamoriello’s first nine seasons in New Jersey, he drafted nine players who would go on to play more than 1,000 NHL games.

By comparison, in the same time-period the Leafs have drafted one player, Tie Domi, who has played more than 1,000 games.

lol
 

finnbalor*

Guest
Just thinking how forward thinking the Kessel trade was, I like many groaned about the return but how often do we see a team cut bait that quickly after signing their star player to that type of contract? Sure we see players demand trades but dropping a year into his deal only to see him regress the following year?

I think this trade is a bit underrated and will prove to be a key to the rebuild. Quite possibly the best trade of the year if Kessel plays his way into negative value production.

As for Shanny's weakness? He leans too much on his staff, signing Robidas, offering Bolland a big contract (thanking Tallon saved us) and passing on Pulkkanen for Dion had Nonis written all over it but Shanny had the good sense to surround himself with smarter people and it's now a strength.

Hunter concerns me with prioritizing Knights, I liked Provorov and Hanifin last year over Marner but meh Mitch looks awesome too, my concern is does Hunter insist on a Tkachuk or Jones this year?
 
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