The Top 20 Red Wings of All-Time, #7

[njx9]

I also do no for the life of me understand why Selkes get shot down. Though, I forgot, offense is 'prettier' than defense, so Harts and ARs are worth more.

Wait, you think the Hart is worth more because "offense is 'prettier'"? Not because it's the player judged to be most valuable? Did you forget what the awards were actually for when you made this comment, or were you just trying to backhandedly ignore the importance of the trophy? But yeah, maybe we should spend more time talking about a trophy that wasn't even given out when player A was in the league. That's a really, really relevant comparative benchmark.

But hey, apparently now Datsyuk was a top 5 all time player, and Gordie Howe sucked because he didn't play in the last ten years. Does Dylan Larkin take a top ten spot, too?

 

[GMR]

Lol. Okay.

Yeah, you can have this argument. Datsyuk is a lock HHoF'er.

What a joke.

News flash. You won't be voting. Datsyuk not being a lock for the HOF is hardly a joke. And there's no way he gets in before Crosby, Thornton or Malkin if they all retired tomorrow.

 

[GMR]

Wait, you think the Hart is worth more because "offense is 'prettier'"? Not because it's the player judged to be most valuable? Did you forget what the awards were actually for when you made this comment, or were you just trying to backhandedly ignore the importance of the trophy? But yeah, maybe we should spend more time talking about a trophy that wasn't even given out when player A was in the league. That's a really, really relevant comparative benchmark.

But hey, apparently now Datsyuk was a top 5 all time player, and Gordie Howe sucked because he didn't play in the last ten years. Does Dylan Larkin take a top ten spot, too?

Didn't you hear? He's a better two-way player than Gretzky or Lemieux, so he must be better.

 

[TooFlashy]

News flash. Datsyuk is a lock for HOF.

 

[GMR]

News flash. Datsyuk is a lock for HOF.

He'll probably get in, but he's not a lock.

 

[KJoe88]

Wait, you think the Hart is worth more because "offense is 'prettier'"? Not because it's the player judged to be most valuable? Did you forget what the awards were actually for when you made this comment, or were you just trying to backhandedly ignore the importance of the trophy? But yeah, maybe we should spend more time talking about a trophy that wasn't even given out when player A was in the league. That's a really, really relevant comparative benchmark.

But hey, apparently now Datsyuk was a top 5 all time player, and Gordie Howe sucked because he didn't play in the last ten years. Does Dylan Larkin take a top ten spot, too?

I know what the trophies are awarded for. Of course I blatantly avoided the importance of the Hart. I was making a point. Why is it okay to include only the AR and Hart trophies when distinguishing resumes? That's what some people are doing in this thread - completely disregarding certain traits or accomplishments to defend a fallible argument.

This time your post was antagonistic.

The other guy thinks Thornton is more valubale than Datsyuk. Tell me, where is he in relative to Datsyuk's career besides still playing in the NHL? Datsyuk would too if injuries hadn't absolutely destroyed him. Just because he makes better passes to his wingers, who have been better throughout his career doesn't make him a better player. And it is peak, Datsyuk was better than Malkin. Only Crosby has had a better peak stats wise. Datsyuk is the better all-around player - someone who's worth more to the TEAM.

If you choose to have Thornton over Datsyuk, then by all means, make that choice.

Some of you do realize Datsyuk is in the top scoring categories for the Wings only behind the other greats, right? By reading this thread makes me tend to believe that's irrelevant now when it comes to choosing players. Everyone's criteria is different. I applaud the other people voting for Datsyuk. Shows that they have appreciated what he gave to the fanchise.

 

[GMR]

I know what the trophies are awarded for. Of course I blatantly avoided the importance of the Hart. I was making a point. Why is it okay to include only the AR and Hart trophies when distinguishing resumes? That's what some people are doing in this thread - completely disregarding certain traits or accomplishments to defend a fallible argument.

This time your post was antagonistic.

The other guy thinks Thornton is more valubale than Datsyuk. Tell me, where is he in relative to Datsyuk's career besides still playing in the NHL? Datsyuk would too if injuries hadn't absolutely destroyed him. Just because he makes better passes to his wingers, who have been better throughout his career doesn't make him a better player. And it is peak, Datsyuk was better than Malkin. Only Crosby has had a better peak stats wise. Datsyuk is the better all-around player - someone who's worth more to the TEAM.

If you choose to have Thornton over Datsyuk, then by all means, make that choice.

Some of you do realize Datsyuk is in the top scoring categories for the Wings only behind the other greats, right? By reading this thread makes me tend to believe that's irrelevant now when it comes to choosing players. Everyone's criteria is different. I applaud the other people voting for Datsyuk. Shows that they have appreciated what he gave to the fanchise.

It's not irrelevant, but total points scored also has to be viewed in context and in comparison to the era. For instance, Sid Abel scored less than 500 points in his career. Likewise, I believe Reed Larsson had a higher PPG for Detroit then Red Kelly had playing the same position decades earlier.

No one here is undervaluing Datsyuk or being unappreciative of his importance to the Wings. You're overreacting there. Everyone likes him. The entire argument is about where he ranks relative to people like Lindsay and Kelly, and how to compare players from different eras.

 

[Winger98]

I know what the trophies are awarded for. Of course I blatantly avoided the importance of the Hart. I was making a point. Why is it okay to include only the AR and Hart trophies when distinguishing resumes? That's what some people are doing in this thread - completely disregarding certain traits or accomplishments to defend a fallible argument.

This time your post was antagonistic.

The other guy thinks Thornton is more valubale than Datsyuk. Tell me, where is he in relative to Datsyuk's career besides still playing in the NHL? Datsyuk would too if injuries hadn't absolutely destroyed him. Just because he makes better passes to his wingers, who have been better throughout his career doesn't make him a better player. And it is peak, Datsyuk was better than Malkin. Only Crosby has had a better peak stats wise. Datsyuk is the better all-around player - someone who's worth more to the TEAM.

If you choose to have Thornton over Datsyuk, then by all means, make that choice.

Some of you do realize Datsyuk is in the top scoring categories for the Wings only behind the other greats, right? By reading this thread makes me tend to believe that's irrelevant now when it comes to choosing players. Everyone's criteria is different. I applaud the other people voting for Datsyuk. Shows that they have appreciated what he gave to the fanchise.

You act like that should be an easy choice.

 

[KJoe88]

You act like that should be an easy choice.

It's an incredibly easy choice for me.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

He'll probably get in, but he's not a lock.

He is a lock. Arguing over players not in the hall of fame actually shouldn't happen on our list.

Pretty incredible in terms of that. The most borderline case that I think winds up in the Top 15 is Osgood.

Datsyuk will go in, a part of this is a popularity contest. That is going to help both Zetterberg and Datsyuk who were revered by their peers and had/have really good relationships with the people that cover hockey. I think both get in. Datsyuk really should go in first or second ballot.

 

[GMR]

He is a lock. Arguing over players not in the hall of fame actually shouldn't happen on our list.

Pretty incredible in terms of that. The most borderline case that I think winds up in the Top 15 is Osgood.

Datsyuk will go in, a part of this is a popularity contest. That is going to help both Zetterberg and Datsyuk who were revered by their peers and had/have really good relationships with the people that cover hockey. I think both get in. Datsyuk really should go in first or second ballot.

Speaking of Zetterberg, I'm surprised he's getting no votes here as compared to what Datsyuk is getting. For the longest time, I could swear most Wings fans thought those two were neck and neck. What has changed so quickly?

 

[Winger98]

Speaking of Zetterberg, I'm surprised he's getting no votes here as compared to what Datsyuk is getting. For the longest time, I could swear most Wings fans thought those two were neck and neck. What has changed so quickly?

One's the Ozzie Smith of hockey, the other's Alan Trammell. Ask yourself why Smith is so beloved (has something to do with somersaults).

 

[KJoe88]

Speaking of Zetterberg, I'm surprised he's getting no votes here as compared to what Datsyuk is getting. For the longest time, I could swear most Wings fans thought those two were neck and neck. What has changed so quickly?

Z had single handedly one of the best shifts in Wing's history in Pittsburgh in '08. He's in incredible leader and in his own right a great TWF. Unbelievable playoff performer until recently. Solid stats and one of the most talented passers the Wing's have ever had. MVP and Stanley Cup champion. I just think Datsyuk has bad a better career.

I'll also advocate him in the top 10.

Also, I think it's time to call this one for Lindsay. He deserves it and it seems as if no ones catching him.

 

[njx9]

I know what the trophies are awarded for. Of course I blatantly avoided the importance of the Hart. I was making a point. Why is it okay to include only the AR and Hart trophies when distinguishing resumes? That's what some people are doing in this thread - completely disregarding certain traits or accomplishments to defend a fallible argument.

I disagree, I think people are arguing for the pieces they think show well for whichever guy they're arguing for. I don't, for instance, think Datsyuk's Selkes are irrelevant, and would likely use them in a different argument. But I don't think they somehow overshadow Abel's accomplishments.

This time your post was antagonistic.

You're absolutely right, I'm sorry.

If you choose to have Thornton over Datsyuk, then by all means, make that choice.

I'm not going to put forward a single argument for any other team's player, but I will argue that I don't think Datsyuk was as important to the Detroit Red Wings as Ted Lindsay or Sid Abel. That doesn't mean he wasn't a great player or a good player, or one of the best players in his generation.

Some of you do realize Datsyuk is in the top scoring categories for the Wings only behind the other greats, right? By reading this thread makes me tend to believe that's irrelevant now when it comes to choosing players. Everyone's criteria is different. I applaud the other people voting for Datsyuk. Shows that they have appreciated what he gave to the fanchise.

I don't. So far, in Datsyuk's defense, there have been a bare handful of posts, suggesting that he was a guy who should actually come off the board this early. I can only assume that the rest of the Datsyuk voters simply didn't watch hockey prior to 2000, and are voting for the best player they're familiar with. People always find that inflammatory, but given that only one or two people seem able to explain their reasoning, it's the only thing I can think of.

 

[GMR]

I don't. So far, in Datsyuk's defense, there have been a bare handful of posts, suggesting that he was a guy who should actually come off the board this early. I can only assume that the rest of the Datsyuk voters simply didn't watch hockey prior to 2000, and are voting for the best player they're familiar with. People always find that inflammatory, but given that only one or two people seem able to explain their reasoning, it's the only thing I can think of.

I'm thinking the same thing. It's like when young people put together a list of best movies ever, and most of the films end up being from the last 10 years.

When you discuss a history topic and pick a team like the Wings with a rich history, you have to take into account guys from prior eras. We're not the Columbus Blue Jackets here.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Speaking of Zetterberg, I'm surprised he's getting no votes here as compared to what Datsyuk is getting. For the longest time, I could swear most Wings fans thought those two were neck and neck. What has changed so quickly?

I am not surprised and Winger actually sums up a part of why I think that in the quote below excellently.

One's the Ozzie Smith of hockey, the other's Alan Trammell. Ask yourself why Smith is so beloved (has something to do with somersaults).

Zetterberg was exceptional in the playoffs and I really believe was the best player in the world for the balance of 07-08. He also will continue to compile numbers for a couple years here and by the time he hangs them up he will have one of our longest serving tenures as a Captain. I have him right in front of Datsyuk.

Just like in their playing days though, very little separates them, tough to have one not right next to the other no matter how you slice it in my opinion.

 

[Winger98]

Zetterberg was exceptional in the playoffs and I really believe was the best player in the world for the balance of 07-08. He also will continue to compile numbers for a couple years here and by the time he hangs them up he will have one of our longest serving tenures as a Captain. I have him right in front of Datsyuk.

Just like in their playing days though, very little separates them, tough to have one not right next to the other no matter how you slice it in my opinion.

Oh, I wasn't saying one was clearly better than the other, but that one is more beloved for reasons that are largely being flashy and fan friendly. Ozzie Smith and Tram have very similar career WAR numbers, similar peaks, etc. but they went about it in different ways. One is hugely loved and revered as as an all-time great shortstop, the other is dependent on the vet committee to get in the Hall.

Personally, I've always preferred Z to Dats because I feel Z has delivered better in the big games/series, but I agree, not a lot separates them. The fact that Datsyuk gets so much more appreciation is ridiculous, and it's probably just going to get worse with Z's cap hit, declining abilities, and the organization finally going off the rails.

edit: sorry, didn't read the bit above my quoted reply and saw you were agreeing with me.

 

[TooFlashy]

zetterberg and his useless empty net playoff goals getting overrated again...

 

[Mount Suribachi]

I don't. So far, in Datsyuk's defense, there have been a bare handful of posts, suggesting that he was a guy who should actually come off the board this early. I can only assume that the rest of the Datsyuk voters simply didn't watch hockey prior to 2000, and are voting for the best player they're familiar with. People always find that inflammatory, but given that only one or two people seem able to explain their reasoning, it's the only thing I can think of.

I'm not sure that's fair - Old timers have gone 1st, 4th, 6th and 7th so far. Datysuk is second in this poll, but Red Kelly was omitted by accident, so we don't know how this would have gone with him on there. I expect #8 will be close between the two of them. I have them very close, but Datsyuk is not just my favourite Wing of all time, but also my favourite sportsman of all all time so you can probably guess which way I will lean

I'm sure there's an element of what you're saying going on, but there's also an element of people voting for everyone who played on the 50s dynasty because history.

 

[njx9]

I'm not sure that's fair - Old timers have gone 1st, 4th, 6th and 7th so far. Datysuk is second in this poll, but Red Kelly was omitted by accident, so we don't know how this would have gone with him on there. I expect #8 will be close between the two of them. I have them very close, but Datsyuk is not just my favourite Wing of all time, but also my favourite sportsman of all all time so you can probably guess which way I will lean

I'm sure there's an element of what you're saying going on, but there's also an element of people voting for everyone who played on the 50s dynasty because history.

Thinking back through, you're probably a bit closer to right than I would've initially thought - I'd guess only a handful of people have really explained their support for some of the older players - and that it's maybe a bit of confirmation bias that makes me think only a couple of people are being thoughtful in supporting Datsyuk. I still don't think I can vote for him over an Abel, for instance.

To the points above, it would be interesting to see a head to head showdown between Datsyuk and Zetterberg. I think Datsyuk would win (deservedly or no), but I'm curious by how much. For me, it would be hard to vote against Z, who seemed to always show up a bit more in the playoffs.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

To the points above, it would be interesting to see a head to head showdown between Datsyuk and Zetterberg. I think Datsyuk would win (deservedly or no), but I'm curious by how much. For me, it would be hard to vote against Z, who seemed to always show up a bit more in the playoffs.

I think the last few seasons have hurt Z more as he's really slowed down. He starts the season strong, then slows down big style as the grind takes it toll. Datysuk on the other hand, even with all the injuries continued to be a PPG player, and the biggest influence on our possession metrics.

Throw in that Dats has way more silverware, had an awesome 3 year peak where he was the best all around player in the world, and was a far flashier and more exciting player to boot, and that probably explains the difference that Z's captaincy and superior playoffs can't overcome. Z is a highly skilled grinder, Datsyuk is just unique not just in RedWings history, but NHL history.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

zetterberg and his useless empty net playoff goals getting overrated again...

Z and Datsyuk closed out games together for years, literally a decade.

Basically almost any empty net goal involves both scoring a point, so that is a really weak argument.

My guess is both of them have a bunch of them because of their roles in closing games. Zetterberg probably has slightly more because he was a more accurate shooter. But again it is very likely that both guys got points on virtually all of them scored by each other.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Datsyuk will retire the superior player, but when all is said and done, I'd consider Zetterberg the greater Red Wing, and will vote for him ahead of Pavs on this list.

 

[Bench]

Datsyuk will retire the superior player, but when all is said and done, I'd consider Zetterberg the greater Red Wing, and will vote for him ahead of Pavs on this list.

I don't know...

How will you feel when Zetterberg leaves to do a retirement tour in Sweden?

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I don't know...

How will you feel when Zetterberg leaves to do a retirement tour in Sweden?

Isn't he on that now here with his Swedish Mafia?