OT: The Thread About Nothing CCX: Pet Emporium

[New Jersey]

You're not interpreting me wrong, I DO "blame" the students who get an Art History degree at Boston University to the tune of $176,000, then wonder with great perplexity how & why they're struggling financially at 40 years old. But I also "blame" the university for running this scam.

Who deserves more blame?

Surely the individual in Caveat Emptor sense, but I think Big College* deserves blame too. And the government, which is the key enabler to ALL of this nonsense, sure as hell deserves a lot of blame.


* I just invented that term. Anything you want to cast as evil you just put "Big" in front of, that's how it works.

Well if there's one thing I appreciate immensely, it's that you're pretty much zero bullshit in expressing your ideas/opinions. We need more of that.

 

[Darkauron]

Yeah I get so tired of art and psychology majors that get into so much debt for a field that you are never going to find a job in most likely. Your life is f***ed before you know it.

 

[None Shall Pass]

Yeah I get so tired of art and psychology majors that get into so much debt for a field that you are never going to find a job in most likely. Your life is ****ed before you know it.

If there's one thing I've learned from seeing one, it's that psychologists can make BANK.

Mine charges $160 an hour and has no openings for new clients.

 

[Darkauron]

If there's one thing I've learned from seeing one, it's that psychologists can make BANK.

Mine charges $160 an hour and has no openings for new clients.

They can make bank. After you spend 8 years in school and only 95% of them will be lucky to break 50k a year sadly.

 

[Davegarri]

They can make bank. After you spend 8 years in school and only 95% of them will be lucky to break 50k a year sadly.

Yeah that caveat is they have to go to med school and become doctors. It's extremely hard to get into med school, and some people don't finish. The vast majority of psych majors end up doing nothing like that and end up being a school counselor or a barista at Starbucks. It's really tough to pay off student debt while working at Starbucks.

 

[None Shall Pass]

Yeah that caveat is they have to go to med school and become doctors. It's extremely hard to get into med school, and some people don't finish. The vast majority of psych majors end up doing nothing like that and end up being a school counselor or a barista at Starbucks. It's really tough to pay off student debt while working at Starbucks.

Psychiatrists do - they're the ones who do prescriptions and stuff.

Psychologists (therapists) don't need to do Med School

 

[tr83]

The only thing I'll contribute to the college degree discussion is that it isn't the degree that a lot of employers care about.

As explained by a couple of larger business owners I know, it's about being able to navigate the red tape associated with being in college. Can you figure out financial aid? Can you figure out how to register for courses? Can you navigate a course syllabus and successfully complete courses? Can you balance a menial job while you do all of this?

The number one complaint I hear is about soft skills. Can one show up to work on time? Can one come properly dressed? Can one write a professional email? Is one motivated enough to figure out their mudane job tasks without being babysat?

If those boxes can be checked, then an employer will take a chance on you and train you.

Larger corporations have the luxury of being picky. Smaller ones have to make do. It's why the first 5 people a business owner will hire will dictate whether they are successful or not.


Those who take out $1,000 worth of debt to dropout of community college more likely to default on their loan than someone who took out $10K and graduated

 

[Nubmer6]

You're not interpreting me wrong, I DO "blame" the students who get an Art History degree at Boston University to the tune of $176,000, then wonder with great perplexity how & why they're struggling financially at 40 years old. But I also "blame" the university for running this scam.

Who deserves more blame?

Surely the individual in Caveat Emptor sense, but I think Big College* deserves blame too. And the government, which is the key enabler to ALL of this nonsense, sure as hell deserves a lot of blame.


* I just invented that term. Anything you want to cast as evil you just put "Big" in front of, that's how it works.

A little late to the conversation, but you hit one of my pet peeves. I feel there's just WAY too much money wasted on people that shouldn't be in college. Years ago, I think only about 20% graduated, but somewhere along the way we decided that EVERYONE should have a college degree. IMO, there should be a lot less invested in college and a lot more invested in things like technical schools for things like plumbing and electrical work.

Of course, I come from the computer industry in which (at least when I was getting into it) a degree was really not a requirement. The best people I've hired either had no degree or had a masters. The difference between the two really was the amount of discipline each had. The non-graduates were smart and could get stuff done, but had a tendency to be loose cannons. The Masters guys were slower, but more organized. My best teams were a blend of both. Either way, I've found that for that industry, you either thought in the right way or you didn't, and no amount of schooling would change the way you think.

As a result, I strongly feel that no amount of college in other fields will get you to think in the "right way" for other industries too, but it DOES show how much bull crap you're willing to put up with.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Finally got Wiley on camera.

I know they're out there; I've seen one while hunting & I occasionally hear them late at night, but I'd previously never been able to get a photo of one.

 

[JimEIV]

Finally got Wiley on camera.

I know they're out there; I've seen one while hunting & I occasionally hear them late at night, but I'd previously never been able to get a photo of one.

I would hunt that all season if I had any trepidation about taking a young/small buck. . Save a fawn shoot a coyote

 

[BenedictGomez]

SNL tonight making fun of all these brainlessly moronic superhero movies, while simultaneously making fun of how they have to do "origin" movies just to make more $$$$ was absolutely BRILLIANT.

One of the best things I've seen on SNL in years.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I feel there's just WAY too much money wasted on people that shouldn't be in college. Years ago, I think only about 20% graduated, but somewhere along the way we decided that EVERYONE should have a college degree.

By, "EVERYONE", you mean politicians. And whereas usually it's just 1 party that screws up a particular issue, this was bipartisan. For about 30 years now, politicians from both parties have made it sound like if you dont have a college degree, you are a FAILURE at life. Really. And I dont use that term loosely.

The reality is nothing could be further from the truth & many kids are "hurt" by going to college. Academia pins its' hat on the fact that the average college graduate makes more money than the average non college graduate, but if you truly believe all their nonsense then this is a shockingly low bar to hurdle. As you mentioned, most tradesmen make MORE money than the average college graduate! And dont even get me started on government salaries & benefits.

In 2019, the AVERAGE Federal Employee makes $83,000 per year. Guess what? The "average" college graduate makes less than that.

We are quickly becoming a society of two classes of people:
1) Government workers
2) Suckers

I was taught from the time I was a toddler (really) that education is the most important thing in the world. But if things dont change, it would be difficult for me NOT to tell my child to get a job with GCA or Homeland Security, or ICE, or DA, or BLM or any one of 101 government acronyms under which folks make $80,000 per year without crippling student debt.

 

[Richer's Ghost]

Not for nothing but the best people I work with are doing things completely unrelated to their degree field. They got through college, demonstrated competence at *something* then got a job and decided to do something else and got a shot based on interview skills and demonstrated intelligence without direct practical experience then climbed the ladder. Being able to figure things out and having a head for self direction/motivation and pride in your work gets you where you want to go far more than anything save a family run business maybe from my experience.

This isn't stuff like lawyer, doctor, pilot obviously but in the corporate world the saying get the right people on the bus then figure out where they sit later applies 99% of the time and works from my 25 years experience.

Use that as you will for the college debate. For some jobs the degree is just the ticket to enter, once in, they could care less what your grades were, where you went or what you're "good at".

-my .02 cents

 

[njdevils1982]

By, "EVERYONE", you mean politicians. And whereas usually it's just 1 party that screws up a particular issue, this was bipartisan. For about 30 years now, politicians from both parties have made it sound like if you dont have a college degree, you are a FAILURE at life. Really. And I dont use that term loosely.

The reality is nothing could be further from the truth & many kids are "hurt" by going to college. Academia pins its' hat on the fact that the average college graduate makes more money than the average non college graduate, but if you truly believe all their nonsense then this is a shockingly low bar to hurdle. As you mentioned, most tradesmen make MORE money than the average college graduate! And dont even get me started on government salaries & benefits.

In 2019, the AVERAGE Federal Employee makes $83,000 per year. Guess what? The "average" college graduate makes less than that.

We are quickly becoming a society of two classes of people:
1) Government workers
2) Suckers

I was taught from the time I was a toddler (really) that education is the most important thing in the world. But if things dont change, it would be difficult for me NOT to tell my child to get a job with GCA or Homeland Security, or ICE, or DA, or BLM or any one of 101 government acronyms under which folks make $80,000 per year without crippling student debt.

tried the university thing…..left after a year……did the college thing…got tossed after 2.5 years of a 3 year program….

….im quite content doing renos and setting my own schedule 20 plus years later…i dont do traffic or commutes nowadays..im done with the rat race

im less miserable too

 

[JimEIV]

Highrail. Brewery in Highbridge...not bad. I went with the Clearly Calypso IPA after doing a flight. New Jersey has come a long way in the microbrew space.

Still need more deregulation but I suppose it is better nothing

 

[Jack Be Quick]

Not buying virtually any of this at all. Just from my experience living on this planet.

I know you lived in NYC for a minute, but be honest here, how many non-finance bros did you hang out with? I have a broad spectrum of friends and acquaintances here and plenty who studied the arts make fine livings.

There is absolutely no requirement for an actor or actress to have a college degree. Hell, many of the best current paid actors were flippin' comedians.

Please back up this claim with an arbitrary list of let's say... 10. Because I'm sure the Leo's, Brad's, Day Lewis' and Clooney's of the world didn't just walk on to sets with no education. And plenty of the most successful comedians turned actors were formally trained. Jerry Seinfeld - degree in theater, Bill Burr - bachelors in radio but studied theater as well, Jim Jefferies - theater, Steve Carell - history but studied theater, Stephen Colbert - theater, Jon Stewart - psychology (another "useless" degree); shall I go on?

You'll never convince me that acting is a highly skilled field when tons of the most famous people happened to be famous or got their "break" from other crap (comedians, models, writers, singers, discovered in line at Costco, etc...) rather than acting.

It can be difficult if not impossible to convince someone so strongly opinionated on a matter they have little knowledge of. The point of a discussion such as this on a public forum is the hope that someone else is reading with an open mind. Not that I don't hope to sway your opinion as well.

Regardless, even having this discussion is very much burying-the-lead, which is the fact that for every one (literally) of your school's "Emmy, Tony" etc... winners they boast about, there are 200 kids who went into debt & now "boast" a theater degree for which they can do absolutely nothing with. It's not a short list.

Where do you suppose everyone from our middle school arts and drama teachers, to session musicians, to the people who designed the Jets new uniform, to everyone at the Met, and everything else in between came from? I doubt it's "the line at costco". The arts employee MILLIONS of people in this nation and we're better off for it. It's one of our top 3 most important exports.

As for other arts, like photography, no you dont "need" a college degree. Dance? Gimme a break. Art History? A complete waste of money. Most of these kids would make more $$$ as electricians or plumbers & spare themselves the 20+ years of crippling student loan debt.

A degree is a degree is a degree. I owned bars and restaurants for a long time and wouldn't hire a bartender or server who didn't have one or wasn't working on one, I didn't care what it's in. Why? Because it shows that this person has the capacity for one or all 3 of a work ethic, vision, and passion.

The recent trope of the tradesman saving this generation or lifting up the next is quickly becoming a tired one. Do I agree that more people should consider the trades and there's a chance they'll be more profitable? Sure. But explain to me how this 20 y/o dancing/photo taking waif is going to lift cast iron piping in to 110° crawl spaces, operate a sawzall while suspended from an i beam 20 ft up, or climb a tower with a 50lb tool bag on them? Besides it being unrealistic, many who can physically will be nothing short of abjectly miserable. Give me 50k a year doing something I love over 100k as a cpa every day - sorry to any accountant friends here.

And finally, the crushing student debt - while a problem for several reasons, most of which falls on the government and lending institutions - thing is somewhat overblown. Could you be paying it for the rest of your life? Sure, because your interest rate will most likely blow. But it's not much worse of a bet than a 30 year fixed for most people, and actual adults - not 18 year olds - who shouldn't keep taking that gamble. The only real difference is the debt being dischargable, which the government should fix.

There's one other thing about university that hasn't been touched on and that is going to undergrad is about so much more than whatever you think you want to do as a child. It's about building a network, setting goals and achieving them, and putting yourself out in the world - which can be an extremely daunting task for many teenagers. That and outside of stem fields grad schools generally dgaf what your ba is in so long as you have the prereqs.

But at the end of the day the most frustrating part to me is the trend of devaluing institutions of higher education in this country. Talk like this is unheard of in the rest of the developed world.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

Re: options with China. The above is really staggering. A few weeks ago I read one nuclear option available to Trump would be to ban Chinese students from attending college in America on human rights grounds. Apparently there are some experts that think this could hurt the Chinese almost as much as economic tactics.

Did you read this in the National Review?

Importing the best and brightest is integral to this nation's continued status as a world leader in numerous fields.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

Yeah I get so tired of art and psychology majors that get into so much debt for a field that you are never going to find a job in most likely. Your life is ****ed before you know it.

Psychology?

You are guaranteed a gig and career advancement if you have a masters in psych and most likely to land one and be able to move up the ladder with even a bsw.

There is an absolute dearth of mental health professionals in this country, so I have no idea where you got this from.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

tried the university thing…..left after a year……did the college thing…got tossed after 2.5 years of a 3 year program….

….im quite content doing renos and setting my own schedule 20 plus years later…i dont do traffic or commutes nowadays..im done with the rat race

im less miserable too

That's awesome.

I took the same path and ended up miserable, even though it was quite lucrative. Although very different industries. I'll report back a few months after my sabbatical is over.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

A little late to the conversation, but you hit one of my pet peeves. I feel there's just WAY too much money wasted on people that shouldn't be in college. Years ago, I think only about 20% graduated, but somewhere along the way we decided that EVERYONE should have a college degree. IMO, there should be a lot less invested in college and a lot more invested in things like technical schools for things like plumbing and electrical work.

And you hit on one of my pet peeves. That is the myth that if we dump 100's of thousands if not millions of people in this country in to the trades that all of a sudden we will have a more prosperous and stable workforce. The only thing that would do is drive down wages and profits. I just can't get behind this idea.

I'm not sure where you live, but call a handful of plumbers in your town tomorrow and see how long it takes to get on out to your home. Dollars to doughnuts it'll be day of, worst case the next. This is with unemployment supposedly below 4%.

I saw firsthand what happened to electicians, contractors, etc in the tristate area during and well after the recession. It was a bloodbath.

Due to the scarcity of demand it got to a point that many were losing their homes and businesses. That may not be unique per se, but I'd guess it they were some of the hardest hit industries.

There's just not as much demand for that kind of labor in this country that the proponents would have you believe.

Of course, I come from the computer industry in which (at least when I was getting into it) a degree was really not a requirement.

No way is that the case anymore. Back in the day that industry was moving faster than the universities could keep up with. Not only have they learned but an entire generation or 2 has come up now viewing it as a viable and potentially lucrative career option.

As a result, I strongly feel that no amount of college in other fields will get you to think in the "right way" for other industries too, but it DOES show how much bull crap you're willing to put up with.

I simply can not get behind this line of thinking. Of course a person with an aptitude is going to achieve more naturally than one without. But give the former the same education and the gap which was a river becomes an ocean (generally, as savants do walk among us).

 

[AfroThunder396]

I'm glad I'm getting older and only going out once ever 4 months. Because I was in bed until around 4pm yesterday recovering from Saturday night.

 

[None Shall Pass]

I'm glad I'm getting older and only going out once ever 4 months. Because I was in bed until around 4pm yesterday recovering from Saturday night.

So much this. It's like I turned 30 and the hangovers magically got worse.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Highrail. Brewery in Highbridge...not bad. I went with the Clearly Calypso IPA after doing a flight. New Jersey has come a long way in the microbrew space.

Still need more deregulation but I suppose it is better nothing

I need to try that place. Another microbrewery is opening in Lebanon on 22W later this month.

 

[JimEIV]

I need to try that place. Another microbrewery is opening in Lebanon on 22W later this month.

Is there a name?

 

[JimEIV]

So much this. It's like I turned 30 and the hangovers magically got worse.

I must be lucky...I don't really get bad hangovers unless I really go over board or mix a lot of stuff. Too much wine is rough the next day. Maybe I am just pickled.