Speculation: The theory of tanking

[BayStreetBullies*]

I can't recall a time in history when the entire core of a team was built through trade. JVR, Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, Franson, Bolland, Bernier... seriously well done Brian Burke and Dave Nonis.

I would consider Kadri and Reimer to be part of that core.

 

[studebaker17]

I don't feel ashamed that I was a supporter of a full leafs rebuild, AKA "Tank".

You can see with draft picks even at #7 you get a good player such as Kadri, etc.

Is there so much wrong with wanting an extremely talented player on your team acquired through the draft?

Of course Leafs fan's NOW don't want to tank because we aren't unintelligent and can tell when a team is moving in the right direction. Burke/Nonis took a unique path and built this team through trades. This is not the norm but they have managed to make it worth. However, the pursuit of a number one center is still full steam ahead and my belief is that #1 centers are only available through the draft.

maybe kadri or jvr are already that 1st line center they're looking for ? i think what your trying to say is not a 1st line center but a top 10 or 5 center and there's no guarantee a high pick will produce that. currently out of all the top centers not all of them were lottery picks.

 

[crazyaces**]

You don't tank if you're a playoff team, you rebuild/tank when you see you don't have a real chance of making the playoffs. Instead of having a pick between 11-14 you might as well get yourself a top 10 pick, and if your getting a top 10 pick you might as well shoot for a top 5. How you might ask? trading key peices like the flames did get 1st round picks and draft 6th overall. Look at Colorodo they seem to either make the playoffs or be bad enough to get themselves a top 3 pick! Duchene, Landeskog, Mackinnon!

Look at columbas, what a mess, you don't finish bad enough to get a high pick and you miss out on getting any elite talent!

 

[Offspring]

I love Edmonton. I like to think of them as the Leafs of a different dimension...We'd look a lot like them had we tanked all those years (right down to having Eakins as coach!).

 

[Duffman955]

I love Edmonton. I like to think of them as the Leafs of a different dimension...We'd look a lot like them had we tanked all those years (right down to having Eakins as coach!).

With Burke as a GM, that team would be up and running. The Oilers management is just a total disgrace

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

There's more than one way to put a puzzle together.

Yep. For every Pittsburgh/Chicago there's an Edmonton/Florida. Not that I don't think Edmonton or Florida will ever improve, but it goes to show you that getting top picks every year guarantees nothing.

In the case of the Oilers, a lot of the top-rated draftees over the past few years have been fairly similar players, leaving them with a very talented, but very unbalanced roster. On the other hand, Boston's top six consists almost entirely of second and third-rounders, while their bottom six, defensive corps and goalies were acquired largely via free agency or trade. Same deal with the Ducks in 2007 - even the players that weren't acquired via trade/free agency were not high draft picks.

Outside of Doughty, the LA Kings were built on shrewd trades and mid-to-late 1sts. The Detroit Red Wings were built largely around a few mid/late-round steals.

We have more high picks on our team right now than the Hurricanes did when they won the Cup, and two of their three (IIRC) top-ten picks that season were veteran defensemen in Glen Wesley and Aaron Ward, who themselves were acquired via trade/free agency.

The list goes on and on and on....

 

[Leafidelity]

That playoff series against Boston may have done more for our team in terms of culture and spirit than drafting a top 10 pick

I think so too. A lot of players cut their teeth at that time.

 

[dimi78]

Pittsburgh
Chicago
Los Angeles

In the last 5 years 4 of the cup winners came from succesful tank jobs.

The year we drafted Kadri, say we drafted 1st OA instead and grabbed Tavares
The year we drafted Schenn, say we drafted 1st/2nd OA instead and grabbed Stamkos/Doughty

Our team would with out question be much better off.

Nope your wrong but it's typical to think star players = winning... all of those teams were built via all 3 avenues available to the GM with a gameplan of building a team identity and had success in all 3. Draft & develop, trades and UFA... not one is more important than the other. You NEED SUCCESS IN ALL 3 TO BUILD A WINNER PERIOD.

Tanking means you suck and your building a losing culture just like Edmonton sits right now with 3 1st overall picks and still sucks.

 

[Suntouchable13]

You don't tank if you're a playoff team, you rebuild/tank when you see you don't have a real chance of making the playoffs. Instead of having a pick between 11-14 you might as well get yourself a top 10 pick, and if your getting a top 10 pick you might as well shoot for a top 5. How you might ask? trading key peices like the flames did get 1st round picks and draft 6th overall. Look at Colorodo they seem to either make the playoffs or be bad enough to get themselves a top 3 pick! Duchene, Landeskog, Mackinnon!

Look at columbas, what a mess, you don't finish bad enough to get a high pick and you miss out on getting any elite talent!

What? Columbus sucked for years.

 

[New Liskeard]

The Leafs were tanking.

They finished in the bottom 10 overall in 5 straight years, bottom 5 overall in two of the last three seasons in fact before Nonis took over as GM.

Leafs finished 7th, 7th, 2nd, 9th and 5th last overall during that time. Very few teams earned better draft selections based on poor team performance and in essence tanking.

How do you think we have Kadri and Rielly etc with those picks or Kessel & JVR as an end result of those other Top 10 picks?.

Yet the Leafs are a much better team today than the Oilers. It wasn't that long ago Leaf posters cried at how the Leafs went about their business and how the Oilers were the benchmark of building a wining team, on the cusp of a dynasty.

You speak of all these high picks from the Leafs, yet a lot of them are not longer here. Go figure important pieces such as ;
Phaneuf
Kessel
JVR
Bozak
Bolland
McClement
Franson
Fraser
Gardiner
Bernier

Were not all drafted by the Leafs? Strange how that works isn't it? Yet all is well in Oil country, they have talented youngsters who can dangle but cant win? I look forward to seeing the progress of the Flames over the next several years. Biggest mistake Edmonton made, was not reaching out to an NHL executive who has won a cup and built very good NHL teams. Its a nice change not to see the incessant chirping on losing is the only way to build a team, yet these very same posters have all but disappeared? Must be over on the Edmonton board?

 

[The Blue Devil]

Pittsburgh
Chicago
Los Angeles

In the last 5 years 4 of the cup winners came from succesful tank jobs.

The year we drafted Kadri, say we drafted 1st OA instead and grabbed Tavares
The year we drafted Schenn, say we drafted 1st/2nd OA instead and grabbed Stamkos/Doughty

Our team would with out question be much better off.

Pittsburgh? Really? You're gonna use the team that drafted the 2 best centers in the NHL as a tank job well done?

Chicago and LA brought in a lot of key pieces through trade and FA as well.

 

[Smif]

Pittsburgh? Really? You're gonna use the team that drafted the 2 best centers in the NHL as a tank job well done?

Chicago and LA brought in a lot of key pieces through trade and FA as well.

Tank Nation didn't expect a team full of 1st Rd picks. Tank Nation wanted a couple of high picks AND selling vets for picks / prospects. Beauchemin for Gardiner / Lupul was one of those and and same with Versteeg and Kaberle for Colborne, Biggs, and Percy. Those moves alone pretty much re-stocked our prospect pool. Also, the Kessel trade was only done with us because Boston thought our picks would be the highest (they were right), so the Kessel acquisition is also the product of us tanking.

 

[Epictetus]

Finishing near the bottom of the league in order to acquire draft picks certainly helped the Leafs (Schenn, Kadri, Rielly). But the key is that the Leafs also used trade to improve their team, while other teams seemingly stuck in some sort of horrific state of existence, rely simply on drafting.

I would also use free agency as a method of team improvement, but let's face it: the leafs have not done well in this regard. You can make the case that McClemment is their best FA signing.

 

[Delicious Dangles*]

Pittsburgh
Chicago
Los Angeles

In the last 5 years 4 of the cup winners came from succesful tank jobs.

The year we drafted Kadri, say we drafted 1st OA instead and grabbed Tavares
The year we drafted Schenn, say we drafted 1st/2nd OA instead and grabbed Stamkos/Doughty

Our team would with out question be much better off.

Chicago had 2 players drafted high in the first round, their 1st overall pick obtained by jumping from 5th to 1st by winning a lottery (finished 15 points above last - How would they look with Alzner instead of Kane?).

LA had 1 player drafted high in the first round, Drew Doughty. Also had a 5th overall pick, used as part of a trade for a 2nd-line center.

Pittsburgh got the perfect players in the perfect order for their rebuild, including the 2 best players in the world. Picked top-2 four times. They almost lost the team to bankruptcy in the process, and only got Crosby, the most important piece and best player in the world, by winning a 30-team lottery.

All 3 of these teams had long, extensive rebuilds. Two have only won by winning a lottery, and the other had 1 player that they drafted high on the team.

Of course if we start adding superstars to our team, our team would be better. But this is no way to go about building a team, unless you also have horseshoes up your rear.

We currently have 6 players drafted top-9 on our team.

 

[Swervin81]

Chicago had 2 players drafted high in the first round, their 1st overall pick obtained by jumping from 5th to 1st by winning a lottery (finished 15 points above last - How would they look with Alzner instead of Kane?).

LA had 1 player drafted high in the first round, Drew Doughty. Also had a 5th overall pick, used as part of a trade for a 2nd-line center.

Pittsburgh got the perfect players in the perfect order for their rebuild, including the 2 best players in the world. Picked top-2 four times. They almost lost the team to bankruptcy in the process, and only got Crosby, the most important piece and best player in the world, by winning a 30-team lottery.

All 3 of these teams had long, extensive rebuilds. Two have only won by winning a lottery, and the other had 1 player that they drafted high on the team.

Of course if we start adding superstars to our team, our team would be better. But this is no way to go about building a team, unless you also have horseshoes up your rear.

We currently have 6 players drafted top-9 on our team.

Another point to add to Chicago is that Kane and Toews were the obvious picks. In the other years they sucked they drafted Beach, Skille, Barker, Tuomo Ruutu, Yakubov, and Mark Bell, who were all busts, save for Ruutu who isn't anything special.

 

[Lebanese Leaf]

Never underestimate the importance of WINNING CULTURE in a locker room.

 

[The Caveman]

The key is good drafting. yes, it helps to have the generational talent, but teams like Boston, San Jose, Anaheim, Detroit have done a great job picking up major pieces lower down in the draft, and developing them properly.

You need vets and kids. That is the big problem with teams like Edmonton.

 

[Mystifo]

Pittsburgh
Chicago
Los Angeles

In the last 5 years 4 of the cup winners came from succesful tank jobs.

The year we drafted Kadri, say we drafted 1st OA instead and grabbed Tavares
The year we drafted Schenn, say we drafted 1st/2nd OA instead and grabbed Stamkos/Doughty

Our team would with out question be much better off.

I am so sick and tired of this whole "tank" BS. It is not as easy as just being god awful for 2 years and drafting in the top 3 to get a stud player and get carried.

For Example...


Chicago in 2010 did use their high draft picks to acquire...


- Johnathan Toews
- Patrick Kane


But what everyone seems to forget is the other cogs that played a major role in their team I.E


- Marian Hossa (Free Agent)
- Patrick Sharp (Trade)
- Duncan Keith (Draft 54th Overall)
- Brent Seabrook (Draft 14th Overall)
- Dave Bolland (Draft 32nd Overall)
- Dustin Byfuglien (Draft 245th overall)


My point is this whole idea that tanking means you get a good hockey team is flawed because without it you kind of end up similar to what we are seeing in Edmonton and Florida where yes you have this highly talented players but you do not have the guys to surround them with. I.E the Keith's or Bolland's or Sharp's which you acquire through a sound scouts.



If tanking was all you needed to do to win a cup then I am pretty sure anyone could be a GM in the NHL.

 

[Patience]

I always thought the idea of tanking is the idea that if you're having a bad year you might as well have a really bad year. For example, you lose your goalies to injuries and the year is lost, you don't waste assets acquiring a stopgap goalie just to make you respectable.

 

[daveleaf]

Every option has it negatives and potential pitfalls. Edm has done a poor job in my opinion in filling out their roster will all the picks that they have gotten. A case could have been made to move down in a draft and acquire more picks and or players to fill out the roster.

One only has to look at Col and Chi to see that teams that have been built well through the draft. You can add SJ, Det and many others to that list. A combination of good drafting and shrewd trades makes an NHL team. Look at Bos and Pitt when they won their cup.

In our case here they made a shrewd move in moving excess d-men in Schenn and getting JVR who was a very high draft pic as well. Phy had to tank that year to get their hands on JVR and our record was pretty poor to get Schenn. Bos was pretty poor to get their hands on Kessel so one can argue they tanked as well.

Many on this board were calling the Bernier trade horrible, I thought last year he would be a wonderful option in filling out our depth in goal. The guy has franchise goalie written all over him, his rebound control is suprerb. People two years ago thought Franson was garbage and that his play was inflated by playing with Webber in Nsh. News flash! The guy can play and should be a fixture on our blue line for a decade. Finding big d-men that can skate, move the puck and have a heavy, accurate shot from the blue line are very hard to find. Anyone that says this guy is not NHL worthy should be ashamed.

Brings me back to Col. A team, that not only drafted well in the first round but other rounds as well and look where they are today. A move or two for d-line and they may have some banners in the near future.

Tanking is one thing, good management is another. Where we are right now is because of Nonis and his patience and being able to find talent. If the other fool was here we would be stuck with Luongo minus Kadri, Frattin and pics if not more.

 

[dimi78]

Nope your wrong but it's typical to think star players = winning... all of those teams were built via all 3 avenues available to the GM with a gameplan of building a team identity and had success in all 3. Draft & develop, trades and UFA... not one is more important than the other. You NEED SUCCESS IN ALL 3 TO BUILD A WINNER PERIOD.

Tanking means you suck and your building a losing culture just like Edmonton sits right now with 3 1st overall picks and still sucks.

Finishing near the bottom of the league in order to acquire draft picks certainly helped the Leafs (Schenn, Kadri, Rielly). But the key is that the Leafs also used trade to improve their team, while other teams seemingly stuck in some sort of horrific state of existence, rely simply on drafting.

I would also use free agency as a method of team improvement, but let's face it: the leafs have not done well in this regard. You can make the case that McClemment is their best FA signing.

All said right here...Tanking never works. It's a myth based on hype of this manipulation placing star players above the rest of the team as the means to a winning hockey team.

The draft doesn't substitute shrewd GMing... Why has Detroit been the best run organization in hockey? They build off a team identity and are active finding success in all 3 avenues available in Draft & develop, trades and UFA... No team has ever won the cup without having success in all 3.

 

[crazyaces**]

What? Columbus sucked for years.

Ummm.... yeah that's my point, sucking doesnt always equal getting great players if you have the 6th overall pick in a draft with Kessel, Toews, backstrom, staal, going ahead of you!