Speculation: The theory of tanking

[New Liskeard]

It wasn't too long ago, this board was littered with Leaf posters clamoring for the club to tank in the same vein as Edmonton and Florida. Now that the sample size has grown to a measureable number, where are the pro tankers now?

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[hockeyes]

 

[Puckstuff]

I can't recall a time in history when the entire core of a team was built through trade. JVR, Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, Franson, Bolland, Bernier... seriously well done Brian Burke and Dave Nonis.

 

[PuckMagi]

A tank is a tracked, armoured fighting vehicle designed for front-line combat which combines operational mobility and tactical offensive and defensive capabilities. Firepower is normally provided by a large-calibre main gun in a rotating turret and secondary machine guns, while heavy armour and all-terrain mobility provide protection for the tank and its crew, allowing it to perform all primary tasks required of armoured troops on the battlefield.

 

[jmart21]

There's more than one way to put a puzzle together.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

If we hadn't tanked the one year we wouldn't have Morgan on our team.

There is definitely a time for tanking. Yet Burke somehow built a team with only one high pick. Good show

 

[Celly Hard]

I can't recall a time in history when the entire core of a team was built through trade. JVR, Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, Franson, Bolland, Bernier... seriously well done Brian Burke and Dave Nonis.

Bolland and franson are not a part of the core.

Core consists of: Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Phaneuf, Rielly, Bernier

 

[Bedards Dad]

If we hadn't tanked the one year we wouldn't have Morgan on our team.

There is definitely a time for tanking. Yet Burke somehow built a team with only one high pick. Good show

Tanking is done on purpose, that was not done

 

[ConnorTO]

If we hadn't tanked the one year we wouldn't have Morgan on our team.

it wasnt a tank... the only tank that existed was the last game against Montreal...


and if the Leafs tanked, they wouldnt have got Kadri and ended up with Schenn

 

[rimshot]

If we hadn't tanked the one year we wouldn't have Morgan on our team.

There is definitely a time for tanking. Yet Burke somehow built a team with only one high pick. Good show

Did we pay someone to injure our starting goalie?

 

[BiggestLeafsFanEVER*]

I can't recall a time in history when the entire core of a team was built through trade. JVR, Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, Franson, Bolland, Bernier... seriously well done Brian Burke and Dave Nonis.

Those players are not all part of the core. And you didn't mention Kadri or Rielly who were drafted by the team

 

[pooleboy]

imo its not the part of tanking thats the problem in edmonton, its the culture of "losing is ok" because we are developing. For example, now i know im gonna get **** on for this but if we tanked and drafted tavares instead of kadri would we be in a better spot? if we tanked and drafted doughty or stamkos over schenn would we be in a better spot? i would think so... but what i like what the leafs did was they didn't allow losing to be an option, they always pushed for a winning culture and thats why Edmonton is having a tough time, losing was always acceptable and apparently it still is, they need a shake up.

 

[BigWilly]

Tanking is done on purpose, that was not done

I know what your point is here, but to be clear a GM tanks - not a team.

When we were going into last season I would have liked the team to have one more poor year. I truly believed the team was going to fight and end around 9th-11th in the conference. If we did poorly we could have Mackinnon, Barkov, Drouin, Monahan or Lindholm as a part of our team.



All look pretty damn legit slotted in as the eventual 1C, and would soon put us at contender status (On paper).

JVR - Blue Chip Centre - Kessel
Lupul - Kadri - Clarkson
Raymond - Bolland - Kulemin

I do like where the team is headed now though.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

That playoff series against Boston may have done more for our team in terms of culture and spirit than drafting a top 10 pick

 

[Hero]

Pittsburgh
Chicago
Los Angeles

In the last 5 years 4 of the cup winners came from succesful tank jobs.

The year we drafted Kadri, say we drafted 1st OA instead and grabbed Tavares
The year we drafted Schenn, say we drafted 1st/2nd OA instead and grabbed Stamkos/Doughty

Our team would with out question be much better off.

 

[pooleboy]

If we hadn't tanked the one year we wouldn't have Morgan on our team.

There is definitely a time for tanking. Yet Burke somehow built a team with only one high pick. Good show

Schenn 5th overall ---> JVR 2nd overall
Kadri 7th overall
Rielly 5th overall

he did have high picks.... im not ******** on their job im just saying there were high picks in this system it isn't like the leafs didn't suck, but instead of using the word "tank" they wanted to win and signing Gerber after the TDL just shows that winning was more important then getting these high picks because Burke and company had confidence in themselves they could build a development system that didn't require high picks to succeed in, they brought in a culture of winning is the only thing we are interested in, seeing my boss on that TSN draft preview show with the biggest scowl on his face because he hates losing against my boss having a smile on his face when they are awarded the #1 pick is a big difference.

 

[Radiohead]

Edmonton isn't screwed because they tanked, it's because their management is terrible. A competent GM with a core of Hall, Yak, RNH and now possibly Ekblad would do a better job building the team.

 

[charliolemieux]

Pittsburgh
Chicago
Los Angeles

In the last 5 years 4 of the cup winners came from succesful tank jobs.

The year we drafted Kadri, say we drafted 1st OA instead and grabbed Tavares
The year we drafted Schenn, say we drafted 1st/2nd OA instead and grabbed Stamkos/Doughty

Our team would with out question be much better off.

Ya and Columbus, Edmonton, Washington, ATL/WPG, NYI and Florida haven't accomplished jack ****.

Chicago, Pittsbugh and Los Angeles all brought in major pieces through trade.

Just because you consistently draft in the top 5 or 6 does not mean you will be successful.

 

[Grant]

I think one of the big reasons they haven't been as successful is because they didn't really change the make up of their teams over the years. The only changes Edmonton really made was inserting the 1st overall pick into the lineup, handing them top minutes. And when one of your top, if not top player(s) are young guys who will obviously make mistakes as they learn the NHL, it almost becomes allowed to make mistakes and be okay with not always winning.

Burke with the leafs was constantly trying to improve the team. We had a chance to give up when we traded Kaberle for picks + futures. But instead we took one of the picks and traded for Liles, shows a vote of confidence in the team saying 'we aren't giving up yet'. We had a weakness (and still do ) down the middle, we could've folded and just try again later, but instead we went out and signed Connolly showing that the team is still trying to win. Same goes with other UFA signings such as Armstrong, Komisarek and Gustavsson. Did they work out with their play? No. But they did bring the attitude of we aren't giving up, we are going to go out there and try to win games. Another example of always trying was trading for Kessel. Nothing says I won't tolerate losing like giving up the next 2 years first round picks (we did still lose but it brought the attitude that we are going to go down trying).

I look at Colorado as another example of this. They signed PAP. They traded their first for Varlamov (which was pretty ridiculed at the time because many thought it could end up being a lottery pick). They brought in Tanguay. And now they are one of the best teams in the league.

I like how a team like Edmonton is doing things now. Bringing in Bryzgalov. Signing Gordon. Putting lots of money on the table for Clarkson. Trading some futures for Perron. These are the kind of moves I think you need to make even during your losing years. I like a lot of the moves Edmonton has made recently. Only question, is it too late?

 

[hotpaws]

It wasn't too long ago, this board was littered with Leaf posters clamoring for the club to tank in the same vein as Edmonton and Florida. Now that the sample size has grown to a measureable number, where are the pro tankers now?

I was clamoring to join the tank club of Pitt/Chi/LA and Col .

 

[studebaker17]

Pittsburgh
Chicago
Los Angeles

In the last 5 years 4 of the cup winners came from succesful tank jobs.

The year we drafted Kadri, say we drafted 1st OA instead and grabbed Tavares
The year we drafted Schenn, say we drafted 1st/2nd OA instead and grabbed Stamkos/Doughty

Our team would with out question be much better off.

it's not that simple, we wouldn't have jvr, to tank it out we wouldn't of added dion or kessel either. lupol would of been counter productive ect. they built a team not a few individuals who are elite with a ton of holes in the line up. part of winning is surrounding your young elite players with quality veterans to insulate them. edmonton has never done that. there's also the money side of it in that if stamkos was here we wouldn't be able to afford kessel. of the teams that have successfully tanked and won a cup there's 5 or 6 that failed to put together even a competitive team. it's a real lucky process trying to tank and getting a generational type talent.you have to suck so bad to finish last 1st of all and that's not so easy to do. most drafts don't have them. the pittsburg model is complete luck on how good the players who they drafted are in those years. chicago has some elite talent not drafted high and same with LA.

 

[Mess]

It wasn't too long ago, this board was littered with Leaf posters clamoring for the club to tank in the same vein as Edmonton and Florida. Now that the sample size has grown to a measureable number, where are the pro tankers now?

The Leafs were tanking.

They finished in the bottom 10 overall in 5 straight years, bottom 5 overall in two of the last three seasons in fact before Nonis took over as GM.

Leafs finished 7th, 7th, 2nd, 9th and 5th last overall during that time. Very few teams earned better draft selections based on poor team performance and in essence tanking.

How do you think we have Kadri and Rielly etc with those picks or Kessel & JVR as an end result of those other Top 10 picks?.

 

[Duffman955]

Pittsburgh
Chicago
Los Angeles

In the last 5 years 4 of the cup winners came from succesful tank jobs.

The year we drafted Kadri, say we drafted 1st OA instead and grabbed Tavares
The year we drafted Schenn, say we drafted 1st/2nd OA instead and grabbed Stamkos/Doughty

Our team would with out question be much better off.

Pitts got a lottery pick generational talent, LA did jack squat until 2 allstars, Richard+Carter were brought in.

Only tank job that went well was Chicago.

 

[Vexed]

This thread is a good example of why the argument was always so frustrating.

Both Edm and Tor 'tanked' and used those picks to acquire assets. That tactic should never have been in question, it's simply how the system works.

The difference between the two teams is that Toronto supplemented the draft picks with older players by trading some of the picks for more established players (so you know what you're getting). The major difference though is that Toronto was able to attract and acquire veteran players to provide leadership to our kids even when we were playing terrible.

In my opinion, it is the last point that seperates us from Edm. They have talent through picks but we all know 4 players doesn't make a 20+ man team. They need to get more guys like Ference who can take the lumps when you're losing and still play the right way.

We bash players like Beauchemin and Komi etc... and with good reason based on their play but things would have been much worse without those guys and our young kids may have never developed without players of their ilk.

 

[I am Canadian]

I don't feel ashamed that I was a supporter of a full leafs rebuild, AKA "Tank".

You can see with draft picks even at #7 you get a good player such as Kadri, etc.

Is there so much wrong with wanting an extremely talented player on your team acquired through the draft?

Of course Leafs fan's NOW don't want to tank because we aren't unintelligent and can tell when a team is moving in the right direction. Burke/Nonis took a unique path and built this team through trades. This is not the norm but they have managed to make it worth. However, the pursuit of a number one center is still full steam ahead and my belief is that #1 centers are only available through the draft.