Speculation: The Sharks are rebuilding, how do they proceed? Part II

[Mafoofoo]

I wish we could make this a reality for a season because I think you four are dreaming, even with Garth Snow.

I've won the cup 5 times in a row in Be a GM mode in NHL 14. Just sayin.

 

[Rickety Cricket]

I hear Getzlaf for Thornton is an e5. Confirm or deny.

Denied

 

[Friday]

My roommate is Brian Burke's nephew, I told him he better not send us Phaneuf haha he laughed… but hey, my best GM move so far? Haha I'm serious by the way.

 

[Alaskanice]

It's preposterous that someone has an opinion different than yours that criticizes a GM and that they stand by that opinion with conviction?

What is with the sweeping generalizations that you have here? Of course people have an idea of how players talk to each other. They're not silent on the bench and they're not completely inaccessible. Everyone knows what the GM tries to accomplish every day...we just don't know what attempts he has made that never materialize and thus are never talked about. No one in the NHL knows how draft picks will turn out on a general level. None of that means that people in general couldn't do what they do if they were given the opportunity and the training. None of that means that they can't dislike a move or think what they want about anyone or anything relating to the team. Criticisms of all kinds come with the territory of professional sports. Some are fair and some aren't but everyone has the right to voice them if they choose. Some are right and some are wrong.

But the argument that just because they are professionals means that their choices shouldn't be scrutinized because the information available to us is incomplete is an absurd argument. At the end of the day, it comes down to the results relative to the expectations. To date, this group has failed and deserves no slack when it comes to any of their decisions because they have failed to meet their own expectations. They're not always wrong obviously and they're not always right. They certainly shouldn't be trusted to be right all the time and they deserve no faith at this point.

You sure said a lot. I guess, you win.

 

[WTFetus]

My roommate is Brian Burke's nephew, I told him he better not send us Phaneuf haha he laughed… but hey, my best GM move so far? Haha I'm serious by the way.

But Nonis is the GM. Burke is with Calgary now.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

You sure said a lot. I guess, you win.

Do you honestly have a problem having a conversation with some depth to it to where you need to be passive aggressive about it? It's not about winning or losing here.

 

[Friday]

But Nonis is the GM. Burke is with Calgary now.

2 years ago, haha rumor on hockey buzz


Sad part is my roommate doesn't know a thing about hockey. He could totally work in the business if he wanted to, pretty damn jealous.

 

[WTFetus]

2 years ago, haha rumor on hockey buzz


Sad part is my roommate doesn't know a thing about hockey. He could totally work in the business if he wanted to, pretty damn jealous.

Oh. That went over my head.

 

[vilpertti]

Sure, I'm not a GM of a hockey team, but through my work experience I have a feeling hockey GMs also have other things to do at their job than just be trading and drafting all the time.

And I have a feeling the vast majority of us would suck big time at the job, incapable of doing all the routines right. Fish out of water without any connections beside the trade board on HFB. And the fact that some of us post here all day long every day lends me to believe they either don't have any experience as a superior (or are the most effective and resourceful superior ever, and as such skilled individuals probably not looking to downgrade to running a hockey team).

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Sure, I'm not a GM of a hockey team, but through my work experience I have a feeling hockey GMs also have other things to do at their job than just be trading and drafting all the time.

And I have a feeling the vast majority of us would suck big time at the job, incapable of doing all the routines right. Fish out of water without any connections beside the trade board on HFB. And the fact that some of us post here all day long every day lends me to believe they either don't have any experience as a superior (or are the most effective and resourceful superior ever, and as such skilled individuals probably not looking to downgrade to running a hockey team).

Certainly a lot of generalizing going on here regarding a bunch of people you don't know anything about personally to make such a judgment.

 

[SJeasy]

The crapshoot argument for scouts is moot. They are paid a lot of money collectively to be better than their peers at that "crapshoot". If their batting average falls below that of their peers, they should not have the job.

My issue with Mueller is that he is battling the odds. It was only relatively recently that stats on prospects came out to prove definitely that offensive skills for prospect dmen were essential. Those skills are a dramatic indicator of future success or failure. There is a 90% bust rate on players without those skills even in the first round, far higher than the bust rate for players with those skills. To pick a player against those odds can be predicted as a poorly used pick based on stats. It also goes to the core of the experience argument for scouts. They have continued to make those picks and continued to fail over a long period to create the data that went into the study.

The hypothesis behind the issue is that there is a minimal puck skill level required for the NHL even for "defensive" dmen. Those necessary skills are much higher relative to their agemates than scouts have previously projected.

To take Vlasic as an example, he did have the skills at junior level but we have all watched as he struggled with his outlet play in his early years. Imagine what it would be like who had less than Vlasic's skills.

 

[Clarkington III]

My only issue with the armchair GMs is the hyperbole that DW purposely doesn't do this/that or didn't explore player acquisition x,y or z because said poster(s) wanted it and it didn't happen.

DW has his faults, but I would hardly describe him as inept or think that us common folk could do a better job, let alone any up and coming or retread GM candidates.

 

[Clarkington III]

The crapshoot argument for scouts is moot. They are paid a lot of money collectively to be better than their peers at that "crapshoot". If their batting average falls below that of their peers, they should not have the job.

My issue with Mueller is that he is battling the odds. It was only relatively recently that stats on prospects came out to prove definitely that offensive skills for prospect dmen were essential. Those skills are a dramatic indicator of future success or failure. There is a 90% bust rate on players without those skills even in the first round, far higher than the bust rate for players with those skills. To pick a player against those odds can be predicted as a poorly used pick based on stats. It also goes to the core of the experience argument for scouts. They have continued to make those picks and continued to fail over a long period to create the data that went into the study.

The hypothesis behind the issue is that there is a minimal puck skill level required for the NHL even for "defensive" dmen. Those necessary skills are much higher relative to their agemates than scouts have previously projected.

To take Vlasic as an example, he did have the skills at junior level but we have all watched as he struggled with his outlet play in his early years. Imagine what it would be like who had less than Vlasic's skills.

This makes sense regarding Mueller, but isn't he being praised on his skating and first pass? I don't remember the other defensive dmen prospects being praised for that. Plus he has size to grow into.

 

[SJeasy]

This makes sense regarding Mueller, but isn't he being praised on his skating and first pass? I don't remember the other defensive dmen prospects being praised for that. Plus he has size to grow into.

Increased size won't help the skillset that is at issue.

I am aware of what the scouting reports are. I hope that they are correct and not blowing smoke, but my experience with scouting reports overblowing skillsets does not give me a warm, fuzzy feeling.

I also want the Sharks looking for skating skills even on the blueline as well and am at least happy that Mueller has those. Of course they then had to go out and get Vanier.

 

[hohosaregood]

Increased size won't help the skillset that is at issue.

I am aware of what the scouting reports are. I hope that they are correct and not blowing smoke, but my experience with scouting reports overblowing skillsets does not give me a warm, fuzzy feeling.

I also want the Sharks looking for skating skills even on the blueline as well and am at least happy that Mueller has those. Of course they then had to go out and get Vanier.

"Where there's smoke, there's fire" as the old saying goes. My thinking about him has been this: Mueller really doesn't follow the cliched molds of what scouts have usually looked for in considerations of top. He's not touted because of his offensive capabilities and he's not touted for being a big bruiser kind of defenseman either. So what's left? Leads me to believe that there's something about his skillset that's made him well liked during his draft year. And no this isn't me in denial.

Also, Vanier's a 4th rounder and he put up some monstrous point totals when he was healthy.

 

[Alaskanice]

Do you honestly have a problem having a conversation with some depth to it to where you need to be passive aggressive about it? It's not about winning or losing here.

It was tongue in cheek.

A term used long before "passive-aggressive"

You may want to read this board more closely, so you can make these same statements to other posters.

Otherwise, I made my point and others agree with me, I made it to break up the constant beat down of everything Sharks as of late.

 

[hohosaregood]

It was tongue in cheek.

A term used long before "passive-aggressive"

You may want to read this board more closely, so you can make these same statements to other posters.

Otherwise, I made my point and others agree with me, I made it to break up the constant beat down of everything Sharks as of late.

It's okay buddy. I got what you were trying to say.

 

[Alaskanice]

It's okay buddy. I got what you were trying to say.

Much appreciated.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

It was tongue in cheek.

A term used long before "passive-aggressive"

You may want to read this board more closely, so you can make these same statements to other posters.

Otherwise, I made my point and others agree with me, I made it to break up the constant beat down of everything Sharks as of late.

It can and often is both tongue-in-cheek and passive aggressive. It also conveniently avoided the topic.

 

[Kcoyote3]

Completely off-topic but I didn't notice how badass the Lightning D got this offseason:

Matt Carle
Jason Garrison
Anton Stralman
Victor Hedman
Eric Brewer
Radko Gudas
Andrej Sustr

And most of them offensively minded. Scary defense if you as me.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Stralman, Hedman and Gudas and Sustr are good defensively. Garrisson is passable, Brewer and Carle aren't good defensively.

 

[Kcoyote3]

Stralman, Hedman and Gudas and Sustr are good defensively. Garrisson is passable, Brewer and Carle aren't good defensively.

The entire Lightning system isn't good defensively. But they definitely improved their defense this off season, which is what I'm sure they wanted.

 

[do0glas]

Doug Wilson is an ex nhl player that stepped into an office role early in the sharks franchise. He has some expertise and insight that a normal poster here will never have, but he didn't go to GM school and likely did a lot of figuring it out as he went when he got promoted.

These ppl are no infallible and the biggest reason we couldn't do their job is because we don't command any respect. We have no reputation and no connections. But knowledge wise it's not an unattainable plane.

Not saying an hf poster could step in and take over, but many here criticize moves and they get it right. So meh

 

[Kcoyote3]

Honestly, besides the John Scott signing (Haley is inconsequential as he'll be in Worc), DW did everything I would have done this offseason. Move Boyle for a pick, buyout Havlat, move Stuart for picks, re-sign Wingels, re-sign Shepp, re-sign Hannan for Stuart's spot.

I don't agree with moving Burns to D, but we have no choice now. Maybe our defense will be better for it.

 

[hohosaregood]

Honestly, besides the John Scott signing (Haley is inconsequential as he'll be in Worc), DW did everything I would have done this offseason. Move Boyle for a pick, buyout Havlat, move Stuart for picks, re-sign Wingels, re-sign Shepp, re-sign Hannan for Stuart's spot.

I don't agree with moving Burns to D, but we have no choice now. Maybe our defense will be better for it.

I'm okay with Burns going back to defense. It's funny to think how people were pretty outraged when he first got moved to forward and now it's just about the same now that he's going back to defense. He just doesn't have the stamina to keep up the wild wookie playstyle that he has at forward. I don't even think you can ask him to hold back on it, he just seems like a go go go when you can kind of guy.

There are essentially two things that DW has to figure out now and that's the LD situation and one more for sure top 9(preferably top 6) quality forward. I think DW's done an unspectacular offseason, which is much preferred over the Vancouver explosion offseason.