The Roberto Luongo Thread

[Dezmoto]

hi. you seem to be conflating wins (a bad stat with no value for goaltenders) with sv% (a good one). can you stop doing this? its making you look silly.

GAA is a partial stat at best. If we judged goalies purely on GAA then Patrick Roy would be pretty average with a career GAA of 2.536 and Cristobal Huet would be in the Hockey Hall of Fame instead with his career GAA of 2.457 or Manny Legacy with 2.410 or Roman Turek with 2.306, clearly, they were superior goaltenders to Patrick Roy.

I'll say it again, if you have two goalies that are playing an equal number of games for the same team, wins is a valid stat. Who do you put in net, the one with the better GAA or the one that is winning more games?

 

[Dezmoto]

luongo, lack and schneider are up for debate. but you can say that all of them are categorically a better than martin brodeur, one of the worst goalies currently in the nhl

The worst goalie in the NHL but still has more wins than Schneider.

 

[thepuckmonster]

GAA is a partial stat at best. If we judged goalies purely on GAA then Patrick Roy would be pretty average with a career GAA of 2.536 and Cristobal Huet would be in the Hockey Hall of Fame instead with his career GAA of 2.457 or Manny Legacy with 2.410 or Roman Turek with 2.306, clearly, they were superior goaltenders to Patrick Roy.

I'll say it again, if you have two goalies that are playing an equal number of games for the same team, wins is a valid stat. Who do you put in net, the one with the better GAA or the one that is winning more games?

I don't even know what to say to this. Patrick Roy revolutionized the position by bringing the butterfly technique into the league and won 4 Stanley Cups, Conn Smythes and played in a much higher offense-based time period.

Wins are just as much a team based stat as it is goalies. That's why Luongo had Vezina nominations playing for Florida.

 

[Dezmoto]

The goalie's job is to stop pucks and Schneider is doing a much better job at that than Brodeur. The fact that Brodeur has been fortunate enough to get 3+ goals support in 14 of his 28 starts while Schneider has only gotten that in 5 of his 29 starts isn't particularly relevant in analyzing their play, unless you think Brodeur is a good luck charm or something.

An amazingly succinct summation of a goaltenders job. Unfortunately you're neglecting some other important dimensions of a goaltender that Martin Brodeur excels at, namely directing his defencemen and handling/clearing the puck. I've said it a few times now and I'll say it again, there's more to evaluating a goalie than GAA and save%.

One way or the other, Brodeur is finding a way to win games and Schneider is not. It doesn't matter if you only let in one goal a game if that one goal is the game winner.

 

[kanucks25]

You're kidding yourself if you think it mattered though. The way the Canucks were playing we had no hope of coming back anyway.

Actually we played pretty well for the first 2 periods and had a decent shift in the offensive zone right before that goal. Big, timely saves are momentum builders or stealers, and that would have been the perfect opportunity for Luongo to make a stand.

My biggest fear from the off-season and the Schneider trade are unfortunately coming true. My biggest problem with the trade was that it was obvious this team would have trouble scoring, and the only chance we had to stay competitive was elite goaltending... So we traded the elite goaltender and stayed with the old mainstay. Now Luongo's numbers are middle of the pack and fading, and so are the Canucks.

You're kidding yourself if you think we'd be much better with Schneider instead of Luongo. I agree Schneider is better, but he's not Hasek. No goalie can mask our offensive ineptitude.

Could Schneider have stolen a few more games than Luongo? Possibly. Could he steal enough to launch us into a higher seed going into the playoffs or even win us a playoff round? Not likely.

If you think our issue is in the crease...

 

[Dezmoto]

I don't even know what to say to this. Patrick Roy revolutionized the position by bringing the butterfly technique into the league and won 4 Stanley Cups, Conn Smythes and played in a much higher offense-based time period.

Wins are just as much a team based stat as it is goalies. That's why Luongo had Vezina nominations playing for Florida.

Hey, I'm just using Verviticus and Opendoor's logic to make a point.
GAA is just as much a team stat as wins. Stats do not tell the whole picture.

 

[thepuckmonster]

An amazingly succinct summation of a goaltenders job. Unfortunately you're neglecting some other important dimensions of a goaltender that Martin Brodeur excels at, namely directing his defencemen and handling/clearing the puck. I've said it a few times now and I'll say it again, there's more to evaluating a goalie than GAA and save%.

One way or the other, Brodeur is finding a way to win games and Schneider is not. It doesn't matter if you only let in one goal a game if that one goal is the game winner.

Brodeur is not "finding ways to win". That's utter crap. Just like the argument a lot of pro-Luongo people used, his competition has been weaker than what Schneider has faced.

Brodeur is fantastic if he faces less than 20 shots. That's not the norm anymore. Don't pretend that GMLL doesn't see that, he obviously targeted goaltending as a weakness, hence why he gave up a Top 10 pick for Schneider when Jersey won't have a 1st rounder this year. He knows its an issue. If he thought Brodeur was a capable starter he would have kept the pick and drafted an offensive player that they desperately need.

Schneider is getting shafted by their terriawful coach who's stated that 'he doesn't believe in goalie statistics' when Brodeur is letting in 4-6 goals in games.

 

[Dezmoto]

Brodeur is not "finding ways to win". That's utter crap. Just like the argument a lot of pro-Luongo people used, his competition has been weaker than what Schneider has faced.

Brodeur is fantastic if he faces less than 20 shots. That's not the norm anymore. Don't pretend that GMLL doesn't see that, he obviously targeted goaltending as a weakness, hence why he gave up a Top 10 pick for Schneider when Jersey won't have a 1st rounder this year. He knows its an issue. If he thought Brodeur was a capable starter he would have kept the pick and drafted an offensive player that they desperately need.

Schneider is getting shafted by their terriawful coach who's stated that 'he doesn't believe in goalie statistics' when Brodeur is letting in 4-6 goals in games.

Well Lamoriello wouldn't have survived this long as a GM if he was stupid enough to think he could rely on a 41yo Goalie to be his starter all season. Brodeur isn't letting in 4-6 goals per game btw, he's letting in 2.52 goals per game.

Also, you don't draft "a desperate need" unless you're prepared to wait 4+ years for that "Desperate need" to be met.

 

[Reign Nateo]

You're kidding yourself if you think we'd be much better with Schneider instead of Luongo. I agree Schneider is better, but he's not Hasek. No goalie can mask our offensive ineptitude.

Could Schneider have stolen a few more games than Luongo? Possibly. Could he steal enough to launch us into a higher seed going into the playoffs or even win us a playoff round? Not likely.

If you think our issue is in the crease...

"Kidding myself" if I think we'd be better off with a goalie you agree is better? I guess I'm one of those lunatics that thinks better goaltending produces better results...

I've been very clear that goaltending is not the biggest issue. Very clear, but;

Personally I think we'd be much better off with Schneider in net. If he stole "a few more games than Luongo" as you said, that would give us say 6 more points, which would leave us comfortably in 6th rather than in a dog fight for 8th. Being comfortably in 6th is 'much better' than one point out of playoff position to me.

My point was that we've had trouble scoring for the last couple years and did nothing to change it. The only chance we had in my opinion was keeping the better goalie, and hoping he steals some games and makes up a bit of that offensive ineptitude. We didn't, and it's burning us.

This is something I spoke of in the summer and a big part of why I didn't like the trading of Schendier over Luongo and still don't. Our only hope this year was elite goaltending as the team is mediocre and that's very hard to change in today's NHL. And then we traded the goalie that could still provide that...

I'm not saying Luongo is costing us points, or the reason we're losing, just that we'd be better off with Schneider in the net this season and going forward. Schneider would give us a better chance to compete this season than Luongo will. That was my point in June and remains my point now.

 

[y2kcanucks]

"Kidding myself" if I think we'd be better off with a goalie you agree is better? I guess I'm one of those lunatics that thinks better goaltending produces better results...

I've been very clear that goaltending is not the biggest issue. Very clear, but;

Personally I think we'd be much better off with Schneider in net. If he stole "a few more games than Luongo" as you said, that would give us say 6 more points, which would leave us comfortably in 6th rather than in a dog fight for 8th. Being comfortably in 6th is 'much better' than one point out of playoff position to me.

My point was that we've had trouble scoring for the last couple years and did nothing to change it. The only chance we had in my opinion was keeping the better goalie, and hoping he steals some games and makes up a bit of that offensive ineptitude. We didn't, and it's burning us.

This is something I spoke of in the summer and a big part of why I didn't like the trading of Schendier over Luongo and still don't. Our only hope this year was elite goaltending as the team is mediocre and that's very hard to change in today's NHL. And then we traded the goalie that could still provide that...

I'm not saying Luongo is costing us points, or the reason we're losing, just that we'd be better off with Schneider in the net this season and going forward. Schneider would give us a better chance to compete this season than Luongo will. That was my point in June and remains my point now.

What about Luongo + Horvat?

 

[Verviticus]

Hey, I'm just using Verviticus and Opendoor's logic to make a point.
GAA is just as much a team stat as wins. Stats do not tell the whole picture.

gaa is a pile of garbage. note how i never said gaa? i didnt say gaa, because gaa is worthless.

 

[Verviticus]

I'll say it again, if you have two goalies that are playing an equal number of games for the same team, wins is a valid stat. Who do you put in net, the one with the better GAA or the one that is winning more games?

the one that stops more pucks. why the **** are you talking about gaa?

 

[thepuckmonster]

Well Lamoriello wouldn't have survived this long as a GM if he was stupid enough to think he could rely on a 41yo Goalie to be his starter all season. Brodeur isn't letting in 4-6 goals per game btw, he's letting in 2.52 goals per game.

Also, you don't draft "a desperate need" unless you're prepared to wait 4+ years for that "Desperate need" to be met.

Are you kidding? People ***** about not getting Nichushkin in Vancouver. Do you not think Lou would have jumped on him and had him playing this year?

Martin Brodeur:

Cory Schneider:

Yeah, Martin Brodeur is just a total vision of consistency and definitely "finding ways to win". Schneider's had one legitimately poor outing in his last 10 (the .800 SV% is from the outdoor game where he let in one goal after Brodeur let in 5) while Marty has had 4. If you can't tell the difference between the elite goalie and the bad one, you are just being ignorant of fact.

Also, judging by minutes played, it's pretty safe to say Schneider is their starting goalie.

 

[Dezmoto]

I'm not saying Luongo is costing us points, or the reason we're losing, just that we'd be better off with Schneider in the net this season and going forward. Schneider would give us a better chance to compete this season than Luongo will. That was my point in June and remains my point now.

Although he has yet prove himself, I do agree we would be better off in the long run with Schneider rather than Luongo, purely for the fact that Luongo is 34 and beginning his decline where Schneider is 27 and about to hit his prime. If Bo Horvat pans out and Luongo maintains his level of play for the next couple of years as Lack develops, I think history may remember the Canucks as getting the better of the deal.

 

[Reign Nateo]

Broduer has won more games and gotten more support for one reason and one reason only. He's probably the best stickhandler and passer in the history of goaltending. The Devils were used to that for the last 20 years and took a while to adjust to a goaltender that is much less competent handling the puck. Broduer is literally a 3rd defenceman back there, Schneider is improving, but generally simply stops the puck for the defenceman to take up the ice.

Now we're starting to see things like wins and goal support even out and Schneider take the reigns because they've adjusted to Schneider's style. It had nothing to do with puck stopping ability and everything to do with breakouts and systems.

 

[Reign Nateo]

What about Luongo + Horvat?

Remains to be seen. But for this season, we'd be much better off with Schneider.

 

[thepuckmonster]

Broduer has won more games and gotten more support for one reason and one reason only. He's probably the best stickhandler and passer in the history of goaltending. The Devils were used to that for the last 20 years and took a while to adjust to a goaltender that is much less competent handling the puck. Broduer is literally a 3rd defenceman back there, Schneider is improving, but generally simply stops the puck for the defenceman to take up the ice.

Now we're starting to see things like wins and goal support even out and Schneider take the reigns because they've adjusted to Schneider's style. It had nothing to do with puck stopping ability and everything to do with breakouts and systems.

Good point about the puck handling.

 

[Dezmoto]

Are you kidding? People ***** about not getting Nichushkin in Vancouver. Do you not think Lou would have jumped on him and had him playing this year?

Martin Brodeur:

Cory Schneider:

Yeah, Martin Brodeur is just a total vision of consistency and definitely "finding ways to win". Schneider's had one legitimately poor outing in his last 10 (the .800 SV% is from the outdoor game where he let in one goal after Brodeur let in 5) while Marty has had 4. If you can't tell the difference between the elite goalie and the bad one, you are just being ignorant of fact.

Also, judging by minutes played, it's pretty safe to say Schneider is their starting goalie.

But still, the charts you posted show 5 wins for Brodeur and 4 for Schneider. As a bonus, Brodeur also got a shutout in that span. I never said he was consistent, I just said he was winning more games.

 

[thepuckmonster]

But still, the charts you posted show 5 wins for Brodeur and 4 for Schneider. As a bonus, Brodeur also got a shutout in that span. I never said he was consistent, I just said he was winning more games.

Look at the scores and tell me with a straight face that Brodeur gave his team a better chance to win in his losses than Schneider did.

 

[Dezmoto]

Broduer has won more games and gotten more support for one reason and one reason only. He's probably the best stickhandler and passer in the history of goaltending. The Devils were used to that for the last 20 years and took a while to adjust to a goaltender that is much less competent handling the puck. Broduer is literally a 3rd defenceman back there, Schneider is improving, but generally simply stops the puck for the defenceman to take up the ice.

Now we're starting to see things like wins and goal support even out and Schneider take the reigns because they've adjusted to Schneider's style. It had nothing to do with puck stopping ability and everything to do with breakouts and systems.

What he said… which I also said, but not as eloquently.

 

[Dezmoto]

Look at the scores and tell me with a straight face that Brodeur gave his team a better chance to win in his losses than Schneider did.

Look at the score and tell me with a straight face that New Jersey doesn't score more goals with Brodeur in net. (35 vs 23)

 

[Reign Nateo]

Although he has yet prove himself, I do agree we would be better off in the long run with Schneider rather than Luongo, purely for the fact that Luongo is 34 and beginning his decline where Schneider is 27 and about to hit his prime. If Bo Horvat pans out and Luongo maintains his level of play for the next couple of years as Lack develops, I think history may remember the Canucks as getting the better of the deal.

"Prove himself" to whom?

Lou Lam? One of the most respected minds in hockey history gave a 9th overall draft pick for him with Broduer on board. I think Lou was sold.

The Canucks organization? They made Schneider their man, signed him to a solid contract and tried thier damnest to trade Luongo. Pretty sure they were sold too.

Maybe he had to put up some stats? Nah, they've been elite at every level.

The only people that Cory Schneider has to prove himself to are a handful of fans that for their own reasons, can't come to terms with the fact that he is one of the top goalies in the NHL.

I don't see what Eddie Lack and the rest of Luongo's career has to do with that trade. That trade will be decided by the rest of the careers of Cory Schneider and Bo Horvat.

 

[opendoor]

I can't believe how much value people place on a goalie's ability to handle the puck in terms of generating offense. I mean, how many goals over a season do you think a good puck handler will generate over a mediocre one?

And even if they do have a big effect on a team's ability to maintain possession, why are the Devils generating no more shots with Brodeur in net than they are with Schneider? The only difference between the offense for the two goalies is that the Devils have been shooting at 10.5% with Brodeur and 7% with Schneider. Anyone arguing that Brodeur is the source of the increased offense is going to have to square their argument with that fact.

 

[opendoor]

Look at the score and tell me with a straight face that New Jersey doesn't score more goals with Brodeur in net. (35 vs 23)

The Canucks also couldn't lose in 10-11 with Tambellini in the lineup. It doesn't mean there was any causal relation.

 

[thepuckmonster]

I can't believe how much value people place on a goalie's ability to handle the puck in terms of generating offense. I mean, how many goals over a season do you think a good puck handler will generate over a mediocre one?

And even if they do have a big effect on a team's ability to maintain possession, why are the Devils generating no more shots with Brodeur in net than they are with Schneider? The only difference between the offense for the two goalies is that the Devils have been shooting at 10.5% with Brodeur and 7% with Schneider. Anyone arguing that Brodeur is the source of the increased offense is going to have to square their argument with that fact.

Thank you. This notion that Brodeur is a catalyst for offence is ridiculous. When I look at his wins I see teams with weak defensive structure: Ottawa, Washington, Montreal. I'll give him Tampa Bay and Pittsburgh because they're decent defensively but don't pretend that St. Louis is comparable to Washington in terms of defense.